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Diana 48 - TRIGGER

July 7 2006 at 11:51 AM
"Sniper"  (Login old_sniper)
from IP address 216.232.205.91

-
... anyone have any real data on a better trigger assy. for the mod. 48 - .177 cal ?

..got a new 48 and it's a tack-driver FANTASTIC!!
..blow the odd shot - trigger on these Dianas ain't exactly in the "Sniper's Wish Book"

..anything being made custom?? or whatever ??

..I'm new here and the Diana is the best springer I've ever had...

...appreciate any help on this..


..thx.

 
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AuthorReply
TomH
(no login)
65.112.25.67

Trigger work

July 7 2006, 3:33 PM 

I have a 48 in .22. Mine is dated 11-99 so it is not an older gun. It does not have the 3 ball trigger and the trigger blade is the plastic part - i.e. the new >cut cost< trigger.

Before taking the gun apart, make sure you understand the spring engine and how it assembles. If my calculations are correct the 48 has about 160# of spring preload. On reassembly make sure you don't muck up the safety. Cut some pins shorter than the factory pins to push through, these help hold things together and the trigger unit in. If you size these correctly you can remove the trigger and spring and all and yet the shorter pins keep the leaf spring/lever that is part of the safety in place.

I did not like the trigger feel at all. After tearing the rifle apart I decided that the sear did not fully re-engage the piston rod if a shot if the trigger was pulled through the first stage and then released. I felt this was not safe and I didn't like the feel so I got rid of the first stage entirely.

I machined down the material under the second stage adjustment screw (the one closer to the trigger blade) so that the screw could be driven down farther. I drove this screw in further so that it is the only screw that operates the sear "ramp."

I polished the sear "ramp" that the trigger screws push against (though it was already pretty well polished.)

I lubed everything with a very light (quantity and viscosity) molydenum grease.

If I remember correctly, there are two springs associated with this later style trigger. One on the trigger blade itself and one on the opposite side of the pivot on the sear ramp from the trigger screws.

I lightened the gage of wire and adjusted the length of the spring on the trigger blade. I also fabricated a piece of plastic that seats on the tab on the trigger blade and my spring actually goes over this. This spring mearly returns trigger blade. My new part was later trimmed for lenght and controlls all over travel. Better would be to put a screw in there instead for controlling over travel but I was hesitant to drill and tap the plastic blade.

I lightened the spring on the sear. Be very careful here! This spring controls the actual engagement of the sear and could make the gun unsafe! REALLY REALLY I actually managed to make this spring too short one time and the gun would not even engage the sear and cock - do be careful.

After all work I went somewhere safe and cocked and loaded the gun. I then pointed the muzzle in a safe direction and moved the safety to the OFF position. I then slammed the stock with the butt of my hand and even a closed fist to see if I could trigger a missfire. I then dropped the gun on the butt with the safety off. Since completing my mods I have not been able to induce a missfire.

BUT, the trigger is now very light, crisp with no travel and no over travel. I must always remember to carefully instruct anyone that shoots my gun. You DO NOT put your finger on the trigger until you want to shoot. For most people this would not be a safe field trigger. Period. It closely resembles a benchrest target gun (IMHO) but for my uses and preferences it is pretty darned nice.

I did not use any of the stock springs and have kept them with zip tied labels so I can always return the trigger to OEM.

My $.02

Tom

 
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Knobs
(no login)
151.200.242.123

Modular Trigger Internals: Springs & Things

July 8 2006, 5:24 AM 

Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

Here is a picture of how the internals work on the Diana modular trigger units. I have removed the guts and placed them back on the pins, except on the outside of the unit.

In the top of the picture you'll see a slieve with a red arrow that points to the right. This slieve is inside of the housing and it holds the three balls that grab the piston stem. As you cock the gun, the piston itself forces this slieve to the rear, As this slieve moves to the rear, the three internal balls move into their detent holes ( not shown ).

Please note the part to the left with the only left facing red arrow. If you look at the top of this part, just above the "hook slot", you'll see that there is a vertical surface, about 3/32" tall. The internal slieve moves backward during cocking and pushes rearward on this surface to get the catch out of the way of the "Slieve Release". Let's call this part the trigger sear, as it releases the Slieve Release.

The the slieve release is the part where the small downward pointing red arrow is. The part rotates around the pin on the parts right end. If you look carefully, just above the stem of the short red arrow, you'll see a small bump on the top of the Slieve Release. THis bump is what stops the intrenal sliding slieve from moving forward and releasing the three balls so the piston gets released and the gun fires. The Slieve Release is spring loaded to return to the up ( cocked) position. The picture below shows the Slieve Release and the internal sliding slieve. Note the bevel cut in the slot. This bevel pushes the Slieve Release out of the way during firing.

Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

IN the photo below all the parts of the modular trigger are shown loose. They have been polished as part of the trigger tune I did.

Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

IN the center you can see the Slieve Release with its return spring. ON the right is the internal slieve with it's spring and guide. You can also see the Trigger Sear with it's return spring. And lastly the plastic trigger with it's return spring.

Let's talk about what the springs do for a minute. It's very important to understand that the piston pressure acts on none of the internal parts except the three little steel balls. All the mainspring pressure has been removed by design from the trigger workings. It's a very smart design.

The internal slieve spring and guide does two things. It returns the slieve during firing so you can cock the gun again and have it postioned so the piston can push the slieve rearward etc. It also propells the internal slieve forward during firing. THis spring is responsible for forcing the Slieve Release out of the way as well as propelling the mass of the slieve and overcoming friction.

The small coil spring on the trigger sear ( The part with the hook that grabs the Slieve Release) forces the hook under the Slieve Release and sets the trigger in the cocked position.

The wire lever spring on the Slieve Release simply holds the Slieve release up until the Trigger Sear can grab it.

The thin spring on the black plastic trigger holds the trigger forward so it doesn't rattle around.

Now, let me get to the heart of what I want to talk about, springs. I've seen a lot of guys make assertions about how to tune this trigger by managing the springs. Some of these assertions are counter intuitive to what I see inside this trigger. I'm not saying they haven't experienced improvements. Read on, then you be the judge.

1.) The internal slieve spring and guide. If you're going to make a case for doctoring this spring, I say beef it up, don't cut it or lighten it. It has asolutley no affect on trigger pressure. It doesn effect lock time of the trigger. If this trigger is stronger it will force the internal slieve forward faster and this will cause a quicker release of the three balls that release the piston.

2.) The wire lever spring on the Slieve Release. DFWI. No gains here.

3.) The small coil return spring on the trigger sear part. I don't know for sure. A fellow could argue the case that you have to overcome this spring when you pull the trigger and you should lighten this spring to lighten the trigger. Personally, I don't buy it. When I put these parts into the housing on their own and pull against them without the other parts in there, there's just nothing there that amounts to much pull weight. However, I have not replaced this spring with a lighter one and seen what it does. This spring does need to be strong enough to positively return the sear when you're cocking the gun in a hurry. You go too light on it and you may get a fussy cocker. I have no idea wher tah boundary is.

4.) The thin spring on the plastic trigger. Pull against it, feel the weight, and you decide. I left mine alone.

This trigger unit was at least 10 lbs and probably near 15 lbs when I started. It was very crisp though and I have shot 5/16" groups at 10 M using the iron sights with the trigger as it was. Probably a better 10M average was 1/2". These are standing offhand groups. My point is that you can get used to almost any trigger.

I found that polishing the internals and properly adjusting the set screws led to a trigger that has a very crisp, perhaps 1 lb letoff. It does have a long first stage travel. That's OK with me, because it makes the gun safe.

Mu gut feeling is that all you need to do on this trigger is polish the bottom flat of the trigger sear and polish the mating surfaces of the Slieve Release, combine that with a proper adjustment, and you've got 95% of the gains. I'm so happy with mine I'm leaving it the way it is and not touching any of the internal springs.

Damn, that's a lot of typing for a two finger typist!

Knobs


 
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Anonymous
(no login)
68.212.11.198

Re: Modular Trigger Internals: Springs & Things

July 21 2006, 1:26 AM 

Excellent post. I really appreciate the pics and description....

 
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"Sniper"
(Login old_sniper)
216.232.205.91

Re: Modular Trigger Internals: Springs & Things

July 29 2006, 7:18 PM 

..thanks for all the data on this - really appreciate yer input.

.. right now I have my trigger ( Diana 48 .177 cal. ) set very light on the second stage - the long first stage pull has to be VERY smooth and gentle - then I can just feel the "bump" of the second stage - at this point it's a virtual "hair-trigger", when I decide to fire., it's almost nothing more than a thought - no noticible 'pull' at all/.
I installed a Theoben trigger-shoe as well, - and this helps to stabilize the mechanics.
Lubed it all with 5W synthetic oil - working very well; - but look forward to following your path and really blueprinting the structure.

..thx. again..

.. 's'

 
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