Ok, I just want a answer to a guestion that has been bugging me. Why would a great gun maker with the reputation of RWS ever need some third party like Marcari to show them what a great spring, or spring guide or seal etc, etc, should be? I do not want to hear the crap about mass production, or volume, or competition, or keeping up with the Jone's garbage that I hear so much with this company. Do they really want to be the best? Why does the 34 model not even have a recoil pad? Damn, I wish I had known that I could have bought a 36 or whatever, that had all of the qualities that I want in a German one of a kind,excuse me, the best of the best! Why do I have to purchase a quality rifle and send it off to Charlie the Tuna, or Joe Bob's tuner basement to get the gun to shoot real quality? What good is a life time warranty, that every one on this blog brags about, voided, when every one on this blog, talkes about a new Macari spring job like it is a blessing from heaven when in fact it, VOIDS THE WARRANTY?
Then the great Diana is no longer an original? Why NOT take a Chinese Beeman knock off and get the best damn Macari, Charlie the tuna, Super duper tune up, oil change, free rotation on this great German Piece of Quality, and then let THEM TURN IT INTO A GREAT GUN? I now own a Model 34, and a 460. Do I want to preserve the quality and craftsmenship of these guns, and pass them on to my son as original with the life time warranty, or just send it off and have some guy modify it to shoot a little better? If this is the case, then I will just start buying Gamo, or Bam, etc.!
you don't have to . Thats just it - you Don't . Some people feel the urge to "improve" the beast .I'm gulity of it . It is human nature or we wouldn't be having this conversation on the pc -think cell phone,morse code, drum beat ,smoke signal ,cave painting all are 'improvements' in communication that aren't necessary to talk to another human But ...pc's are better ...aren't they ? The airgun as it comes from Diana is truly fine . If you want to mod it go ahead I won't fault you - it's called personalization . If you want to preserve history and store it away - I definitely won't fault you and neither will our granchildrens grandchildren . As good as things are they don't last forever in use and parts will need replacing - sometimes the original won't be available when that time comes hopefully a custom spring maker or talented tuner is available to make it right if not better .
parts added ala carte and still factory original and warranteed? ( the modder in me is thinking out loud lol )
Think about a 34(or any model) optioned from the factory with an upgraded stock , a "tuned spring" for shooting all nice an easy on a lazy Sunday afternoon with the family. a target trigger option , maybe a starter stock set to fit to junior at an early age, while allowing the adult size display grade to come out of his childhood unscathed (doesn't Dakota Arms and Kimber offer that ?) Nice touches indeed .
Not sure about all the other "jones' " or bottom dollar stuff - but it would set Diana(or any maker) up on the next plateau .
We're not just airgunners we're a little rabid about our sport/hobby. We seek out others just like us lol. We shoot what others would think rediculous distances with freakin airguns for Pete's sake! Not only that, we shoot every chance we get.
Now the majority of people who buy airguns would be lucky to actually feel how their rifles shot after a thousand rounds. Most Cabellas and Wallyworld airguns probably rust out before that many rounds go through them. Or they're considered disposable and tossed away.
But we the internet airgun forum seeking aficianados of this sickness could put a thousand rounds in more than one air rifle over a summer. Not only do we get to feel how airguns shoot once truly broken in, but we shoot them enough that expendable parts become, well, expendable. We either go to the brand/company's repair center or we go to an aftermarket parts distributor/maker. Our luck is that not only do we have a company repair center but we have high grade parts suppliers and several tuners to boot.
The beauty is in the many choices we have. It can also be the frustration. It begs the questions you asked; does a new factory airgun need a tune right off the shelf and if so, why? Well the answer is no. An airgun worn in through shooting it is its own kind of sweetness. A rifle which goes through the niggly details of a thorough tune-up is a whole 'nother experience. They're both great but they're also different.
Because part of this hobby has to do with the niggly make-it-perfect aspect of owning a certain airgun while another part of this hobby is shooting the freakin' crap out of airguns. Another is having more airguns than is prudent and that's where I am now lol.
No. You don't need to do a damn thing to your airguns no matter what some people will try to get you to believe. But if you shoot enough you will wear out the expendable parts and have a choice before you; to either replace them with factory parts or aftermarket parts from JM, who lives and breathes airguns.
We DO take our hobby above and beyond the average Joe. We affictianados set the benchmarks in airgun preformance, accuracy and expectations that the average Joe shooter trys for.
Airgunners that frequent these Forumsare a different Breed. The Mods we apply or invent, filter on down to establish "the normal" modifications everyone asks for. Yes we're pickey, lucky for them that we are eh?
Love of airgunning and the airguns themselves. Striveing for personal shooting perfection and the mechanical perfection of our equipment. Aren't they lucky that we do? Ha-Ha!
I think I got the message way before you posted them. I think you missed my point or I am not getting your point. Sure you can take perfection and try to out do it. You can take the most beautiful RWS Gun ever made, the finest craftsmanship, the most accuracy, the most damn fantastic gun made and I mean ever designed period! and you guys will send it off to Charlie the tune a guy, or whom ever to do a hand job on the rife, for what?
I love my Diana guns. I just want a German made Diana the way the Germans intended it. I do not want to view the Grand Canyon, after some Charlie the tuna gave me rose colored glass's to look through.
I do not get the idea, that Gamo, Crosman, etc. is so bad, because they send their guns overseas to get better prices, better quality, etc. when you guys send your guns away to the highest vendor to make your RWS shoot a little better.? Ok, so now it shoots more accurate or more smooth, or more what ever. But guess what? IT IS NO LONGER A DIANA! It is now a Charlie the tuna guy guts with a Diana stock and shell. I bet I can shoot any Diana, thousands of shots and not need a tune. And when that time happens, I will contact Diana to do it.
I guess we need a "original Dianawerk" website, and a "Dianawerk modified website". I am so sorry to get angry over this, but I had to speak my piece. Thank You.
There's really nothing sacred about a "stock" Diana
December 19 2007, 10:56 PM
No knock intended, but these aren't what you would call high grade to begin with. They are nice, affordable mass-produced guns. Being so, they get the job done but it doesn't mean they can't be made to do it better. Kind of like the 1911 pistol. A good gun in stock configuration but with the potential to be a great gun in the hands of a good 'smith. As I understand it, a basic airgun tune would be honing the receiver tube to remove machining marks, maybe polishing the spring and adding a dampening tar. This can also include more work like replacing some parts with others that fit/seal better or a bit of trigger work. Truthfully, a lot of it replaces hand work that would have gone into the gun maybe fifty years ago but isn't economical these days. What you end up with is a better performing gun that should shoot smoother. Does it void the warranty? Yes. Is it worth the trade? Apparently, a lot of people think so. Now, if Dianas cost $800 would I think twice about that warranty? Yes, I would. But they are generally priced where you are not out a small fortune if you must pay for a repair down the road. And a warranty repair will only get it back to warranty specs in many cases which is not as optimum as, say, a good tune with a better spring. In any event, not everyone feels they need a tune and are satisfied with a stock gun, be it Diana or Gamo or Walther, for that matter. Just personal preference.
Diana engineers airguns to tight specifications but factory assembly allows for getting very very close to those tolerances but not all the way there. If Diana could do that today, those rifles would all be considered factory custom rifles.
Consider that for every great idea a designer and engineer has, the accounting dept demands they keep their part of the deal under a certain budget. Quality costs and Diana is trying to give as much as it can while remaining under budget and therefore in business in the future.
We like how Dianas feel, their balance perhaps, or the fit. We've learned that not only are Diana rifles very consistant in their reliability, they also retain a certain level of accuracy in their barrels. Really, that's the one important factor. How accurate Dianas are.
I could see your point if you said, 'Why is it the first thing Diana airgun buyers do is replace Diana barrels with Walther barrels etc?'. But they don't. Diana owners buy this brand because its airguns are accurate. The little things(?) like internals only help to make use of that barrel. Consistant velocities due to making sure factory work is as close to what every Diana employed worker hopes to put out the door. They do their best, I'm sure of it. I'm also sure constraints they have no control over limit what they can do before those rifles leave the factory. Now factor in the accounting department and you start to see why almost no product anywhere can be utterly perfect every single time. Sometimes its built into the process which is ultimately given the go ahead by accountants and other times (but less often I believe) its trying to get things done in a timely manner.
Remember too that we're a slim margin of the sales of these rifles. The majority of buyers thinks the rifles are as good as they can be right at the first shot.
Its a Diana if its has factory guts or not. Its not a tuna-Diana or a JM Diana or a Watts-Diana or a Krajawaneck (Forgive me Ed)Diana. These are people who would probably make the desingers say, 'Hey, if I could have been allowed to make that thing the way I wanted, and not held back by the accounting dept, it would be just what you turned yours into.' That's not to say a stock Diana isn't great. Its to say that anything made well can be justified to see if it can attain near perfection. How much you want to bet the Diana airgun designers have their own early one-offs that are tuned to the absolute hilt?
I understand that modifications void the warranty. The Diana airguns warranty is important for me only, because it sets a level of baseline performance and quality that the company must maintain or warranty returns would force them out of business. Diana's are solidly designed and made of good materials that are well suited for their purpose. They are ideal airguns to tweak to a new level of performance. A Maccari tune kit and a simple home tune to remove burrs ,polish and apply better lubricants has improved every Diana i have worked on.
My new 460M is as close to a tuned feeling and acting gun as i've seen. That said; I just recieved a 460 full power tune kit that i will install over Xmas. I will add the best piston seal available. It will be a more reliable, accurate shooting gun that will cock easier and have a gentler shot cycle.
I will improve the trigger too.
Diana airguns are not like a 1934 mercedes roadster, they are mass produced quality airguns.
If someone finds one of my Diana's in a sealed gun cabinet after 100 years. They won't be examining for original parts, they will shoot it. It WILL make them smile.
Good shooting,Tom
I totally understand what your getting at! Origonal Stock is "Pure" and often good enough. Your point is a totally valid one!
For decades these premier makers have put out a pretty consistant andVERY good quality product. Most airguns NEVER see a "Tuner" or get custom parts or work done to them and generally there's absolutelly no need to have em worked on. Breakge, wear or abuse excluded!
I have several guns which have simply been worn-in/shot-in and I'd never think of doing any other thing with them. One my R-11, another a lowly, Fast Deer. Both simply cleaned-up well and lube tuned with proper lubes and carefull adjustments. All doing very well, thank-you!
On the other hand, I have always been a sort of "tinkerer " and have tried to improve many things from airguns to Ham Radios, Car's Boats, and now an 86 F-0150 4x4! Trying to extract a little more or making them do what I want, the way I want em to...
You have to admit, the 45 year old spring wire technology that I had in my little Model 25 D couldn't match todays metalurgy. When mainspring replacement time came, I made 2 choices, one to use modern wire, two to give the little 25D just a little more suds, and I opted for a Maccari R-7 spring. I gained smoothness, hopefully longivity, and upgraded the rifle to more than basic Model-25 velocitys (The European 25-D uses a Model-5 PISTOL Mainspring!) Yes I know I changed the rifle, however now it's FAR more usefull for my needs.
Now on the other hand my Beeman/Diana Model 35 got a "Stock" mainspring just cause I liked the way it shot and felt since I bought it brand new some 28 yrs ago.
The need for both origonal and modified whatever's will always be around, and with trying to establish, here for instance.a simple "gathering place" one must include ALL facets of the game.
Hence, on this Forum everything is included. SO little room, so much information to share.
I guess you can look at it like this, I have been collecting guns for years now and this is where things start to matter. On one hand a airgun that is all stock no modifications like stock refinish, replacement stock etc. all internal parts original this is a perfect example years later. It has been the same way with all guns, since I am into Match guns as well I have seen everything done to guns. Taking a airgun and just replacing a mainspring or putting different guides in it is not bad compared to what you will see people who shoot in competition do to their guns. If you take a new airgun and put a kit in it and keep the stock parts on hand then the gun can be put back to the way it was providing you do not alter anything otherwise. I think the airgun market is way bigger than when I bought my first airgun, with all of the forums information that we have there is the Internet and all it is amaizing to me now years later. Another thing, alot of people think well why can a individual do better than the factory, bottom line is they really can't, if the factory wanted to take one of their guns and so call tune it they could do it and then some, they don't because they are selling guns in the numbers and not building each gun for each individual.
Weird, my second response to Dave ended up inthe middle of this thread. I'll have to watch how I respond from now on lol.
MR. ZVP, you and I have a great deal of similarities haha. R11, Diana 35 (love that rifle to a sickness lol), the Fast Deer... HW55...
I remember us talking about some sidelever you had that I was trying to find for the longest time. It was called something like the Snow Pea or something like that... I remember us emailing about you doing some long distance shooting with it.
I want to thank All of the posters that contribuited to my question "Why" in very logical, wonderful ways to explain their love of this fine rifle. In fact, I think this topic was one that should be kept and filed away. In fact, I think all of the post should be sent to "DIANA" as a confirmation to the loyalty of their product. I may or may not get a Charlie De Tuna tune up in the future. I learned a long time ago to never say never. As long as the gun is shooting as smooth as it is now and does not lose substantial velocity, I will probable just keep shooting it. I think that will be a long time. I actually like my Crosman Quest when I had it. I am sorry now that I got rid of it. In fact I am going to get another one and WILL SEND THAT OF TO GET TUNED! I know I will be buying some Bam products in the future and will most likely send them off to get tuned as well. I feel the way about my 460. magnum, the way a lot of the guys are dreaming about the "52 Luxus". I have the gun mounted right in front of me, in front of my computer and admire it many times a day. Likewise, it is also a reminder that it is just a material thing, and is a symbol to help me remember my family and all the things I have to be greatfull for.
Thanks for all the great post!
Good shooting!
Dave @Vbch
First let me say I am a long term RWS owner and feel they offer good value and quality.
However we should keep in mind that RWS is basically the cheapest German airgun around. The HW and FWB are a good bit more money, at least in the past. Ditto on many Beeman's of the past (which were often HW and FWB). Most of the English guns were also a lot more money.
So a lot of us bought RWS in the past because it was what we could afford in a quality airgun. I'd love to be able to buy an Air Arms S410 (or even TX200) or HW100 but I can't justify spending a grand on a "pellet" gun (or a "hobby"). I just don't have that sorta disposable income.
But what I can afford to do is spend $250 for a RWS instead of a $100 on a Crossman/Sheriden. Then over a period of years drop a bit here and there. You know, build a spring compressor, buy a JM tune kit, etc. Gather my parts as budget permits and then turn that RWS into something a lot closer to those other German guns that sold for twice the price.
I did the same thing with small block chevy motors at one time. They were still chevy engines in the end and my gun is still a RWS. I don't feel like I have changed it into a different gun. I have just tricked it out a little with some TLC. I'd like to think the gun appreciates the extra attention too. The RWS's of the past basically shipped dry and they shoot a lot smoother with a quick hone and lube. JM offers a wonderful kit for those of us who can't own a lathe and crank out our own guides and such. And guys like DaTuna offer a wondeful service for those who don't care to get involved.
Really we are very lucky now as such options weren't common 20 years ago.
I have to disagree. I could afford any airgun I wanted. I like Dianas for what they are.
Give you an example. Never owned a pcp and there's about a trillion to a half a chance I might ever own one. Not because of the price, but becuase I honestly don't care for pcp airguns. I get a lot of flak for it but that's my taste. Almost as bad about CO2. I have a beautiful Crosman Mark 1 but I like it as it is from the factory. And I never shoot it because CO2 doesn't appeal to me for some reason. But it looks like a Ruger mk1 so I'll hang onto it.
If a certain airgun appeals to you eventually you'll own it. You'll either buy it used or save up for it. Price is in my opinion, immaterial. I have HW's up the ying yang. A number of Dianas. FWB and Anschutz. Used to have a stack of BSA's but now just a couple. There's a Prosport here too.
I like what I like as everyone else likes what they like. And if you want something bad enough, you'll find a way to get it. Dianas are accurate sporter airguns. They used to make top ranked match rifles and pistols. I have one, a 75 and its nuts how that thing shoots.
If someone builds an excuse that Diana is the choice of affordability I don't think that person is being totally honest with themselves. In a hurry to buy something is not the brand's fault. If a person could afford a 34 this week, then that same person could afford an... HW95 in two weeks maybe. Or an HW77 in a month or two. Its a step away from a TX200 and that's just another week or two from a Prosport. A year's wait could garner an Airhog tank setup and AA410E, or an Theoben. A Quackenbush.
This sport/hobby ain't cheap because you never end up with just one. Four or five less expensive airguns equal one more expensive airgun.
I own Dianas because I like them. They shoot well and are accurate and accuracy is the only thing besides ergonomic fit that matters.
I wasn't calling you out. I was talking to the guy above you and as I said a couple posts above, I'm having trouble responding to who I mean to. I should have just addressed this to the guy who you were responding to by using his Name.
This is not something to get upset about, that one of us disagrees with others here. Instead of getting mad that I wrote something which isn't part of the lovefest, why not actually take into account the things written. Did you stop to think that maybe I have not a thing against you? That maybe I disagree per my own experience?
I didn't call you a name or imply I thought anything less of you than anyone else here because I don't. I said, "I disagree" and then I stated my case why. No harm meant, no foul meant, certainly no "calling out" meant.
I'm not here to agree with everything everyone else says. I'm here to read and talk about Diana airguns.
But please don't run off because you think I "called you out" two times. I saw stuff that wasn't right and I pointed it out. I sure didn't mean to offend you or anyone else for that matter.
A lot of great posts here btw, and about how people feel about tuning (or not) their Dianas.
I will make this short. I agree with Russ & Warren and a couple of others in favor of occasional tuning and/or "tinkering". I have "tinkered" with every single car I have owned, and I 've owned over 30 cars since I got my licence 25-26yrs ago. Aftermarket, 'speed' and go-fast parts always go in my car after a few months of ownership. Why? because it makes the car drive better, faster, or handle better, etc. and it makes me happy. Brake rotors and pads are first to go because 99% of your mass produced cars have mediocre brakes. If I can make my car stop 15ft shorter from 60-0, and be safer with aftermarket brakes, why not? I don't think that putting a few 3d party parts in it does not make it a Honda, Toyota or Ford anymore.. Same way I feel about guns.
Everyone is different. Basically the way I look at it, no gun is perfect. If I can make mine a little better why not? With a mild (lube, hone/debur) tune or an advanced tune (spring/guides, seal, trigger tune, etc.) I can have a Diana for $200 more that performs as well as, or maybe better than, British & other German guns that cost 2-3 times as much. I will never feel like my gun is not a Diana anymore because of a couple of different internal parts. If I changed the entire stock, the barrel, and most of the hardware, maybe then I 'd feel it's not a Diana. But actually to me it's not all about the name of my gun, it's how it shoots and how I can improve it.
For sale: RWS Diana 350.22. cal. mag rifle mint condition. All original parts. This rifle still meets all standards to qualify as an "original"! Still under RWS LIFE TIME WARRANTY!!
For sale: RWS Diana 350. in 22.cal. mint conditiion. Some original parts still left. Tinkering on rifle through the years. Charlie the Tuna spring replacement. Warranty voided!
I own 6 different RWS rifles, and 3 HW rifles. I personally do not buy the idea that all HW rifles are superior to all RWS rifles. It depends on what is important to you. If accuracy is what you care about then this is especially true IMHO.
I have put thousands upon thousands of pellets down the barrels of "many" different rifles. I have two RWS rifles, namely the RWS-46 amd the RWS-24 that will out shoot (accuracy wise) my R-7 and R-9 Goldfinger any day, all day long. None of these guns are "tuned". The RWS rifles are as smooth as I care for them to be, and by the way, the RWS-24 cost close to 1/3 of what the R-7 cost. The wood on the RWS rifles is nicer. Other than that, I could care less about any other attributes of the HW rifles. What is important to me is that the rifles shoot where they are pointed and look good. That's all I care about.
The R-7 rifle has a stellar reputation and one that I think is much overrated. Yes, it is a beautiful rifle, but check up on the spring and you will find that it has one of the cheapest and most failure prone springs of any rifle in its price range. I got rid of one R-7 because it was a dog. Yet, because of all the hype, people buy it and swear it is the best rifle ever made. I think they are wrong, and I suspect it is because they have a limited experience with other fine rifles. The same is true for the R-9 IMO. Since it cost more, people think it is far better. If better means accurate, then I submit that they are wrong. RWS rifles are not only a better value, they are darn good rifles when it come to accuracy. From what I have heard, the latest RWS rifles are even better quality. Can't wait to try one.
Who will care if a RWS 350 was tuned or original? It's not like they only made 500 of them. The stuff you think will some day be collectible, rarely ever is. The only guns that are desirable in original condition are some of the pre-war pieces that were made in limited numbers.
Shoot em, tune em, use em, enjoy em. The value of the newer RWS guns are not going to be affected by not having original equipment in there.
"but I'll be needin' that gun, fer squirrels and such."
I agree with you guys about in fifty years it won't matter with most of these rifles. Doesn't the lifetime warrantee only apply to the original owner? These are pretty common rifles, and nothing at all is special about them unless the model has very low production numbers or is unique in some other way.
I had a real hard time selling my 90th anniversary Diana 45 because no one wanted what essentially was thought of as a wall hanger. Didn't matter how well it shot or even that I used it with care. To other people the emblem and that tin black and gold plating was a reason to pass on what would have been a nicer shooter had the rifle been just a plain old 45. In the end it sold for about what a good 45 of same vintage sold for.
Basically I think most old things will hold their value in about the same ratio they cost against similar items of their time. So if A 52 is worth more than a 48 and a 54 is worth more than a 52, then that's what it'll be in thirty years from now.
I think some folks might believe buying some airguns will have been like buying a Winchester before the prices climbed as the company closed its doors. Now, a 9422 will run something like 700 bucks just because they can't be had new anymore. But they aren't even that great and the people who spent lots of money might be disappointed to find out Winchester closed its doors mainly to shut down the union and that its already back making the model 70. Some version of the rest of Winchester's line will eventually return also.
My point is, unless you're looking at some rifle which can be varified as an ARH original for example, meaning it has the original ARH "optional internal accurization", maybe the select stock or a variation you could only get through ARH, value depends upon what a model's accuracy and popularity was.
The best thing I can say about today's airgun values is to look at books giving insight to what airguns of the past are selling for today. So far the specualtion of values ( or what makes airguns less or more valuable) in the future is just that; speculation.
