I don't care if the claims, the details are true, are facts or not!
Even though a few pro reviewers didn't really give us a solid detailed
review I still want one! Man look at that price - I'm getting one now!

I'm still scratching my head and wondering what the heck is going on.
Even the advanced airgun guys are acting kinda like newbees or remaining
silent.

If a fella posts he's going to squirt WD40 down the transfer port of his
Diana 34, R9, etc. we all quickly respond. If a fella says he's going to
leave his CO2 rifle out in the summer sun for an hour to get more power
we all quickly respond.

Did Crosman send everyone but me a $50 check? LOL

Hahaha that was good Herb, that was good.

For me its about accuracy and consistancy. You really can't have the second without the first. Which means what you're espousing is exactly right imo. I've never been into pcp's although I've shot some of the very best. Not that I have anything against pcp's, they're just not inspiring to me. I get zero pleasure out of shooting them. And just because there's suddenly one at below the cost of a decent springer doesn't make me want to run out and get one either lol.

I think you've made your point clear. People are either going to listen to what you have to say or they aren't. And maybe they'll love their new Discoveries. I'd hate for them to be disappointed. But you already told them what to be looking for from the people who already have them on order and if they don't like what they get, the ball will be in their court.

I remember that Dennis Quackenbush used to make a CO2 rifle in .22. If my memory serves it could also be used as a pcp, no? I always thought he should have kept that rifle in the lineup. A totally handmade rifle like that would still have all the charisma and accuracy that people want. You and I both know it would have had great shot to shot consistancy too.



Harv

yes I think it was .22 caliber and would operate/shoot on CO2
or HPA. Also I think it was set up for lower pressure air too.
No doubt a sturdy well made rifle. Wish Dennis had been sent
a Benji Disco a few weeks ago to review - oh boy!

Springers when 'right' really impress me! One cocking stroke
and she's ready from mild to quite smallbore airgun potent.
Good to great shot-to-shot consistency. Often easy to maintain
with a little knowledge, a few tools and replacement parts/seals.
Accuracy fairly good to darn good this side of 50 yds. and can
be good enough well beyond that depending on shooter, 'rig'
and conditions.

Herb

Well lets see, as a newbie, I bought a new Diana 34, a Diana 460 22. cal. A Hammerlie 850, a Russian Baikal,. Jeese, I wish I had so much wisdom. Excuse me Herb, some folks just cannot handle change. I can see that the success of the new Discovery is eating you up. Why do you worry so much about other folks that see something that might be an economical substitute in order to have fun. I look at many of the Crosman websites and blogs and those guys love their guns. They shoot the heck out of them, modify them send them off for tuning etc. Tom Gaylord gives a review and well as Jim Chapman, and you make them out to be sellouts. I do not for a minute think they are lying. I will purchase this new Benjamin Sheridan an AMERICAN OWNED gun. I will take that chance. So far, my newbie instincts have been right on the money. You may be right Herb, maybe the gun will be a big failure, a big flop, and thousand of folks will be out a lot of money. For their sake, and the sake of this sport, I hope that for once your wisdom will prove you very wrong. I hope this gun has all the success in the world. And God Bless Crosman for trying.

"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err"
Gandi

I'm not really down on Crosman. I simply don't believe the gun
can do what they say it can do. If Jim C. and Tom G. do get
down to testing the claims and giving us all a detailed report
that matches or near matches the claims I'll believe - at least
until a few "solid airgunners" get one and test it and holler
BS! Then Jim and Tom get tarred and feathered so to speak.

So far Jim C. and Tom G. are avoiding being painted into a
corner or risking being tarred and feathered.

I'll be getting the tar and the feather's for ya Herb. How do you like em, hot, or hotter?

by a gang of mesmerised airgunners over at the Crosman Forum.

Shame on all those airgunners that are quite knowledgable in
PCP airguns for not speaking up. They know the claims are
ridiculous, unreal, fantasyland. Soon enough the facts, the
truth will come out into the light for all to see.

Heck I just got another layer of tar and feathers over several
that have been applied over the years. A layer for speaking out
against Matt Parker, another for the same against Wayne Trapp,
another for the same against Russ Best, etc. I must enjoy tar
and feathers! LOL

A lot of guys are still POed at me for being right about this
and that and that.

that from a 2000 psi fill the .22 model will shoot 35 shots at about
23 FPE per shot using CPs and that 25 pumps from the hand pump will
top the gun back off to 2000 psi. Read it yourself or reread. It's
absolute nonsense!

Well Herb, it's gotta makes you wonder why all those fancy colleges and Big Universities waste so much time continuing to teach engineers. Don't they know that the law of physics can never be changed or improved? Whats going on? There's guys out there that say they can make a car run without gas. What nonsense. The idea that the research guys for a major gun manufacturer come out and make claims that they have improved on the Pneumatics of a gun is just blasphemy. Hell, they would not know a BB gun from a cap gun. Send em back to school to do some more learning.

"How many pumps strokes?
One-hundred pump strokes take you from an empty gun to full and it takes about 25 to top the gun off after every 35-shot shooting session. Remember, we're stopping at 2,000 psi. That's more than one shot per pump stroke, yet the .22 caliber develops about 23 foot-pounds with each shot. That's conservative, and I'm talking Premiers. You'll get even more with heavy pellets! Folks, THIS is what can be done when the maker knows what they're doing and has a solid engineering base."


now

the math does not add up 100-25 is 75 pumps left in the reservior (25 is 1/4 of 100) after shooting 35 times

then at a full 2,000 psi equals 35 shoots x 4 (25 pumps divided by 100) equals 100 shoots on 2,000 psi and more with heavy pellets.

and I did not go to MIT to learn this is NOT possible

this has to be in the same league as the Sheridan streak shooting at 1,500 fps, then again statements of the Discovery and the Streak are from the same people.

warren







and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"

on my last post

35 shoots times 4 = 140 pellets (not 100 shoots) still, they said more with heavy pellets maybe 150 on 2,000 psi????

I told you I did not go to MIT

warren

and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"

Scott laughlin (classicalgas over on the Crosman forum) build a PCP from a QB78 with a Jack Hailey pressure tube of roughly the same volume. He is getting about 900 fps with 14.3 Premiers for 20 shots @ 2,200 psi fill so it is possible - even he acknowledges it. I would not be so quick to dismiss the Discovery on paper or in your head until real-world numbers come in. Shouldn't be long as pre-production models are in the hands of testers as we speak.

What I'll find interesting is if the gun performs close to initial reports, but not quite up to the mark. Will folks look at it as the glass half full (wow, only 37 pumps to fill) or half empty (hah, 37 pumps to fill, not 35).

it is the people that review the gun that make outlandish claims

read my post again Bill, there is nothing against the Discovery but about the people that claim these ourageous #'s

If and If the Discovery does half of what these people claim I will sell ALL my RWS and go PCP

and why not, 900 fps at 75 yrds with a 1.00 ctc and in .22 cal for $245.00 and with maybe 2,000 psi for say 75 shoots with no recoil, this is a NO brainer

now you tell me which springer can do that, answer NONE

in a new york minute I would sell my 34, 40, 48 and soon to get the 460

then again lets wait for people that buy the Discover and post the real thing, then I will question them

until they give me the truth about their gun, then I will give you the same about mine

warren






and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"

Theres hope for you yet. Good job. I was wondering if they got the part about the fill up with the last 25 or 30 shots.

are also guys that will be getting paid to repair, tweak, mod
the guns. Also guys that will be making breeches, bolts, shrouds,
stocks, etc. for these guns. They are wearing a silent grin. They
wish I'd go away or be banned from all AG forums. So many put these
guys up on pedestals and worship them.

Heck the gun would still sell quite well if honest detailed reviews
were published. I guesstimate a .22 Benji Disco goes from high teens
FPE to a peak of low 20s FPE and back down to high teens over a 25
give or take a few shot string using CPs. That's not bad. Also it may
take 30-35 or so pumps on a hand pump to top back off at 2000 psi.
That's not bad. Accuracy - hard to say. Reliability - hopefully way
better than many newer Crosmans.

I said what I had to say, ie: my reservations with the Discovery, and will not comment any more except to repeat my biggest concern with these guns which have a highly pressurized chamber: safety and reliability. When I see Tom Gaylord's test Disc.22 come broken (they should have sent a Cherry) with a major leak, it only compounded my fears.

I 'm done.. silence is a virtue. Lets just wait and see.

Enough speculations and critisism, good or bad from both sides. We know a lot of information was lacking in the reviews of the so called "experts". Those reviews as far as I am concerned are just to make PA more $ and increase sales. Lets just re-visit this when Bill and other guys get their Discovery.

Harry, I can understand the pessimistic attitude from others, but you have a "engineering background". Surly you of all people know that any new product has to be tweaked and re-tweaked. The so call flaw in the gun was so minor and corrected so quickly and then the gun went on to shoot great! Nice velocities and good consistency!

What part of the fact that this gun is not suppose to replace the worlds best PCP, but to open up a new world of air gunning! Man, I glad you weren't around when the first model t came off the assembly line.

I love this new sport for me, and I personally want to see the world of Airgunning explode. Maybe someday, their will actually be a airgun store in my town. Maybe I will own one. I will give Crosman all the support in the world. I WILL NOT BE SILENT! DANG!

yeah I noticed that leak too and thought what the.....!!!! Truth
is more than a few guys have posted about leaks right out of the
box with high end PCP rifles. Blows one's airgun bliss!

I may come across pessimistic but believe me I am also very optimistic that this will be my first PCP.
I just don't want to get my hopes up and be disappointed at the end. I like to wait and see what the first 200 "real" people will report when they get their Discovery.. things like # of pumps, chrony #'s, any design flaws, quality, accuracy, how many arrived DOA/broken, etc.

I 'm just not the kind of person that jumps at everything new that comes out on the market. Look at how long I waited to order the Hammerli 850. It caught my interest in Aug-Sept. After reading a couple of hundred posts on the 850 forum in Oct. & Nov., I knew it was going to be in my gun cabinet in the very near future. I maintain the same strategy with the Discovery. Lets wait and see what owners report when they start hitting the shelves in March.

Everyone was raving about the $299 Benjamin Super Streak Magnum Springer a couple of months ago, not only on this forum but others as well. They 've been on the shelves for some time now and guess what? There 's not a single owner review on PA's web site. I 'm not saying it will be like that with the Discovery, it's obvious from those pre-ordering it. I just prefer to take a conservative stand and just wait. I do have some will power left in me but it's hard, believe me!
Maybe it's because of all the firearms I bought in such a short period of time in the late 80's and early '90's. Most have not been fired in years and I 'm not enjoying them as much as I should be. I don't have the time for all these guns.. I have begun selling a couple of my shotguns locally and I made a sale already on an old Mossberg 12ga. The guy will be picking it up this wknd. I don't have most of the boxes they came in nor the proper shipping material for them, so I 'm looking for local buyers through the local paper. Next is a late '90's 20ga Remington shotgun that I don't have any use for and it's really the wife's gun but she hasn't shot it for a couple of years since the local range became a "private club" by invitation only.
So anyway it could be psychological. I don't want a bunch of guns sitting around that I can't make time to shoot and then forget about them. I don't want to make the same mistake with the airguns as I did with the 19 firearms I purchased. The "bliss" and excitement just faded away with many of those guns and don't even get the urge to shoot them anymore or travel 30 miles to the closest range. I guess I 'm trying not to get addicted to airguns and start buying one every few weeks like I was doing with firearms. Maybe that's what brings out the pessimism in me.. It's reverse psychology on my self!

I 'm rambling again.. enjoy your Discovery and other airguns everyone!

Harry, that may be the smartest thing written on this forum in a long time. They all look nice. They all shoot well. They all can be improved with tunes. They can even be clothed in custom stocks. You name it, reasonable or not, airguns can be modded as much or moreso than even firearms.

Almost every airgun out there today is going to outshoot its owner. That's if the owner takes the time to shoot just one airgun enough to realize it.

I'm not collecting anything anymore unless it replaces one or more that I already have. I'm just going to buy pellets.

Harv

Harry, I doubt that anyone expects you to go out and buy a new air gun every few weeks. I think it is wise however to buy one in each catagory. For instance I own a little Baikal, that I shoot every single day. I can shoot it in the house, or at targets I have make around the yard. I can also shoot my 850 in the same way. I believe it is even more quiet than than the Baikal. I have a 177. cal. 34, which I take out on the weekends with my 7 year old son. It is easy to carry around with a sling. I have the 460. in 22.cal. Probably the gun that gets shot the least. But it is a hunting gun that will be there when I need it. Also, my goal when I started this sport was to own a nice collection, weather I shot them daily or not. I have other guns as well. I treasure my Marlin 22. cal. my Dad gave me, over 40 years ago. I do not shoot it very often, but so what. I don't HAVE to shoot every gun to love it. I wonder what you think of a person that collects coins Harry, do they have to put them in a gum ball machine each day to enjoy it. How about people that collect swords Harry? do the have to chop off someone's head every day to say Hey! look at me, I use my swords each week?
Harry, you are NOT optimistic about the Crosman PCP, you do not like Gaylord and now just want the gun to fail. I am excited about this rifle because it will help promote the sport Harry. Come on Harry, I do not buy for a minute that you are concerned about the guys buying the gun and getting screwed. You know the gun will do just fine and the guys that bought this gun, will have made 5o mods to it before you and Herb even figure out why the success.
By the way Harry, I pulled out my old 22. cal about every 2 months and it gives me memories that I cherish. I pull out my Beretta shotgun and do the same thing. I pull out my Winchester 308. the one my Dad gave me, the day he returned from Viet Nam with the Marines in 67. I will never forget how happy I was that he was home and how many times we enjoyed hunting together. I pull out my old bolt action rifle and remember the first deer I took down with that Blunder buster. No Harry, I do not regret for a minute owning the guns that I do! I guess we are different Harry. Good Shooting!
Dave @VABCH

By the way, Harry all my guns, will be passed on to my son Harrison, AKA Hurricane Harry

Thanks for you insight and letting me now how you feel.

First off I don't have a reason for not telling the truth but you seem to be reading my mind so you know everything.. maybe there 's no need for me to post or reply any longer or anyone else typing about how they feel about something since you already know.
You can guess my chrony results too because I 'm not posting a dang thing in your thread! heheh

If I don't like a gun I 'll let you know straight up and my reasons for it. Why is it you don't like what people feel when they attempt to honestly tell what's on their mind in the forum? Everyone has their opinion and you have to accept that. Not everyone can agree with you or with each other although most of the time we 're all on the same page here.
Dave, You must learn to respect others' position on a subject without coming at them guns blazing with an offensive tone. Not everyone is the same and everyone approaches things a different way. You have to learn to live with that Dave, if we are ever going to have peace on this forum. I tried to speak openly and you surprise me by calling me a liar.

I too have some guns that hold a special place in my heart for one reason or another. I have good memories of at least half of them. I 'll never get rid of those. Some guns I bought out of impulse or because the sale price was so great (like this Mossberg 12ga w/short barrel that can't hit anything - was only $139 at local sporting goods store).

You know, I was so excited about the Discovery PCP, that I probably don't have the words to describe it (but you know that's not true - you read minds). After that initial excitement I composed myself and wanted to see what others said after they got theirs. Then I 'd make my move. That's what I always do. Just like I never buy a new model car 1st year out. It's one of my stupid philosophies. Why would I want the Discovery to be a failure? What do I have against Crossman? I 've owned 3 Crossmans and just shot my 357 pistol the other day. I have a Crossman 1861 Shiloh (CO2) revolver which are hard to find which I will never sell. It's just looks and feels so real and is so well balanced - it's one of my favorite guns! You don't think I like to pay $379 (PA price) for a complete PCP package? Do you think I like paying double and tripple that? But you seem to know how I or everyone feels..

Dave you take things WAY TOO personally. All one has to do is look at your post history. Think before you type, calm down and take a deeeeep breath. You tend to misunderstand people a lot and read too much into it. Many times you think someone is talking about you when they are not and get extremely defensive. I like to sell some of my old guns to make room for new. Harv says he feels the same way. You say "what? I love my guns and will never get rid of them" like we were talking about you what you should do.. we weren't. Where in my post did you see me referring to you or what action you should take, with your firearms, airguns or your whatever else you own? I don't tell anyone what gun they should get.. I just speak from my experiences which is not a lot with airguns, but not too little either, and let them decide. No need to get hot over someone not liking the same gun or not having the same opinion as you. In this case we are talking about a gun that we mostly know of from what's on paper provied by the manufacturer and 2 semi-complete reviews. Naturally there are going to be many specualations, and everyone must respect each other's position. I just tend to be cautious and wait things out. That's the way I am and noone is going to change that.

I have never been much critical of you or anyone on this forum (except maybe Warren that needs to cut back on his narcotic medications - joke). Everyone can type or write whatever they want. I could care less if we differ in opinions, I 'm not going to be audacious about it, or try and convince the other person over and over that my opinion is the correct one. But please don't tell me I 'm lying about what I wrote and that I 'm deceiving everyone, etc. What reason would I have for that?

Dave, you need to learn Forum Etiquette. I don't want to see you banned from this forum or others. We started in this forum about the same time and thought we had become friends. I am sorry to say your latest post reflects nothing but the opposite and if you really feel that way about me, I 'm not worthy of your friendship.

I think I need to take some time before replying.. "them are fighting words"

Yes I know I can't spell Crosman

PS.
Russian guns stink. I hate the 460 and 34, and will be cancelling the 850 order that Dave brainwashed me to get. Just kidding..!!

calm down, my Valiums are kicking in

it's just that from the moment I press the buy button to buy and the FED EX truck comes which takes 4-7 days I get in a male PMS stage

now, how many times have you given me GOOD advice, I would say 10 times out of 10 and Harvey and KrK and many others

there and my 460 will not be here until 1-19-2008, soooo whatch out (LOL)

we are air freaks and sometimes go off the handle on other Diana owners (this is a Diana forum, right?)

I have regreted typing some blogs but I cannot take them back (Harvey the EDIT please) and you guy's do not know that but I do.

by the way do you need some Med's

Thanks Friend

warren


and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"

You 're so right! (you must be on your meds.. LOL!).

YES, please send me some meds so I can deal with everything going on in this forum. I 'll take some Valume and a few Xanax please!

Maybe I got a bit carried away but Dave needs to understand that although we are all airgun addicts, we don't all share his addiction to such a high level and there is no need for someone to tell me that is not what I meant to say or that's not what I was thinking. I have never gotten emotional on the forum before. First time for everything right? I guess we are only people - imperfection in its glory

and you harry are on my +++ list

behave, OK

sorry but do not have those milds meds you ask for just the 21 gr. ones like Valium, Percocet, etc. in .25 cal

warren

and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"

now you 're talking! My kind of meds

Thanks my new friend Warren.
Harry

$400 what the hay im in i wonder what these will sell for say year from now? Now my current stable will be 87 sheridan,rws 34 .22cal,gamo 440 .177 just purchased,new discovery comming in .22cal. I may need to thin the herd and sheridan may be on the blocks!

Everyone says how great and dandy working a new rifle is tune and lube they call it hehe. I can still plow the crap outa tin cans and have fun stock. I think steve is making some money at his forum if anyone mentions something that might hurt chinese gun sales or one of the vendors he banishes them.

Harry, first of all, I do not mind a heated debate or argument among friends. It adds a little spice. If I get a bloody nose from you or Warren, that is fine. The next day we are friends and who cares about yesterday. Harry, I know when I get your goat, and love it when you come back blasting with both barrels. If I didn't like ya, I would not waste my time on the keyboard. I know you harbor a little jealousy over the 460. mag. It must be tough to know a newcomer comes in and eats your lunch. But who cares Harry, it is all in the family. So call off your dogs, and take one on Warrens Valiums and enjoy the weekend. We can fight again on Monday.

Your friend
Dave @vabch

the Yellow Forum read Thumper's response to Steve in CT's post "Don't
get me wrong, I applaud Crosman for what they did...."

Notice Jim C. is on the scene quick.

It'd be sooooooo easy and not take but a few minutes to do a shot
string of 35 shots over a chrony and then pump the gun back up
counting the pump strokes of the hand pump to refill/top off. So
far the few reviewers are avoiding that - at least posting it -
like the plague! That stinks!

I called off the dogs but they ate the goat and disappeared. So no more dogs

No problem Dave, I got carried away a little with my response too.. I don't mind a "heated debate" as long as both parties do not attack the integrity or honesty of the other person. I used to be very curious about the 460 but not any more.
Friends again so we can fight again on Monday Geez, it's like the relationship I have with my wife

I really don't care much about the 460 right now or any other gun. I really love my 350 and have from day 1. I have learned to shoot it very well without a scope since October. I can't wait until I get the dang BKL 260D7 mount which noone has, to mount a scope, but I don't care if I wait another 2 months. I made a ~45yd shot at a crow today and she didn't know what hit her. See my post. Most of the squirrels were taken at 25-35yds without a scope. I would never give up this gun even though I know there are more accurate ones out there. I bought this gun exclusively for hunting and it's taken 22-23 animals so far in 4.5mos with only 2, maybe 3 misses. It's performing its intended duties almost flawelessly. With a good shooter behind the 350's open sights, nothing is safe!

The 850 .22 (it's in stock now - should be shipping Monday!) will be shared with the wife and probably my son and will be doing target and plinking duty and maybe take down some starlings and squirrels to 25yds or close range. Once I master that gun, the Discovery PCP will probably be the next one and maybe a .25 cal, so I can have "one of each" which has always been my intend.

But to clarify something which maybe I was not too clear on, I could have easily owned another 19 airguns since I bought the 350, if I let my passion for airguns run amock like I did when I was buying so many firearms like there was no tomorrow. I don't want to do that again. I feel sorry for all those guns sitting there and regret buying some of them and not having used my favorite ones in years. I think the only way for me to have a small collection of airguns is to get rid of some of those firearms, ie: a few that are I do not hold dear to my heart anymore. I just cannot justify to myself having 19 firearms plus another dozen airguns, 30+ guns and only use a few regularly. If I can't use a gun regularly I don't want to own it and have it sitting there for many years. That's how I feel. Once I get a PCP and a .25cal (springer or PCP), I will re-evaluate and see what happens after that but for now that's my goal. I got the .22 Mag Springer and a .22 CO2 Magnum on the way and I 'm grateful and content for now. Small game hunting season will be coming to a close in another month so the CO2 will be much welcomed for paper shooting & plinking.

tested by Hans (A-Team) peaked 860 fps MV with CPHs and yielded
about 20-22 good shots. 3/4" groups at 40 yds. He filled from a
tank. No posting of actual shot string - yet. Higher mag scope
used.

Wow! LOL

At least that little bit of info sounds/reads more believable
to me. Others and their stock/factory guns probably - more often
than not - won't do as well. What the heck - it's a cheap PCP
and there's plenty of added stuff $$ to spice it up a bit.

Where did you see that review? Can you post the link?

3/4" groups at 40yds sounds more believable too but I did expect 20-25 full powershots. I was very skeptical of the advertised 35 full-power shots, because very few "mid-powered" (for a PCP) expensive PCP rifles get that with 3,000psi, let alone 2,000.
That's ok though, I 'd rather sacrifice 10 shots for more power. Crosman could have made it produce 35 full-power shots if they wanted to I guess, but then again the velocity of a med-weight pellet could have been probably 790-800fps, not 840-860.

What did Gaylord get with the 50yd accuracy test? 1/2" CTC or 3/4"? I have to go back and check. 3/4" CTC at 40yds is not bad but not as good as most (more expensive) PCP's. That's ok. It's still pretty good for hunting but it's definitely not dime size groups as some had hoped. I 'm sure a barrel replacement down the road would improve the groups by 1/4", maybe more.