I think I know what they are doing. Their prices don't make ANY sense any more but I 'm pretty sure I know their strategy now.
What is happenning is, that they raise the price of a gun when they sell a lot of them. It's the only thing that explains why they now have different prices with different calibers within the same model!
Today's weird pricing which was different that yesterday(!):
RWS 460 .177 - $456
RWS 460 .22 - $522(!)
RWS Panther .177 - $199
RWS Panther .22 - $178
RWS 52 .177 - $443
RWS 52 .22 - $338
These prices are all over the place. I think as soon as they sell 5 or 10 of the same model, they increae the price. They must have the software programmed that way. I guess they 're just plain greety taking advantage of the higher demand?
I could be way off but don't know how else to explain MSS' strange pricing fluctuation. Diana guns are not a traded commodity for Pete's sake
they didn't have much selection in airguns and airgun accessories
but the prices were nice. Prices stayed lower than most as their
airgun and airgun accessory selection increased, expanded.
Now that they are getting weird, playing games or whatever I'm
done with them.
At M460 prices and MSS isn't that far off the market. They list $456 and $522 for the .177 and .22 respectively. Airguns of Arizona, Pyramyd Air, Straight Shooters and Compasseco all show $489 for both calibers. So they may be underpricing the competition purposely on the .177 model to move some of their inventory. I would guess that the .22 cal version easily outsells the .177. Also what are the shippings costs? MSS may have lower S&H charges. The other retailers may subsidize margins by offering a low selling price(to get the sale) but making a little more profit off the S&H. Also, some retailers talk of replacement costs. If you bought Eureopean rifles when the dollar to Euro was more favorable, then go to buy a new shipment now ( with lower exchange rates) you pay more per rifle. That recently happened with Air Arms products and all the major vendors had to increase their cost to the customers. The price of the AA S410 ERB went up about $130 bucks since I bought mine. I was one of the first people to order one from Straight Shooters. Before they had pictures or info on their web site, I bought rifle sight unseen. I paid less than $775, now they list @ $890. If you're in the market for a new air rifle, buy it when you see a good price. Prices seem to go up and down for no reasons and they seem to be only going up, not down. I would love a new M460 but have no budget for one. And I'm afraid that by the time I have the money, the price will easily exceed $650 at any and all reatilers.
German guns fluctuate the most which they should! If you look at gamos,daisys and the like prices stay pretty much the same. I belive they sell so many airrifles and RWS changes the prices on them so it makes sense. They really should load up like 500 guns of each now.
I bought my M 460 for $340 to my front door. NO kiding. When I called them back to buy another they had just sold the last two at that price. So I bought a M350 For somewhere around $310 (all .22cal for hunting). The prices you guys are talkin Im glad I got off the buck when I did ! The 460 even shoots .22 round balls good, and as far as Im concerned nothin shoots round balls acurate,but the 460 does. Wabit hunter John
Now please tell us all, what is the superior gun.The gun that makes the other one look like a red headed step child. Please tell us which one is the golden boy. The Diana Best! The Diana "Excellence" the "Perfectionist" The Meister Shooter and Extreme Great Hunter!
my experience is that buying anything that is imported to the US has it's extra costs, then add the mismatch between the $ and EURO
I lived in Germany (Stuttgart) for 3 years almost 14 years ago and it was expensive by our standards at that time, imagine now
the prices for 2008 on RWS imported to the US are set by UMAREX (sole distributor in the US). They have the 460 at approx. $650.00 if you buy from their web site. I bought mine from Pyramid for $459.00 w/shipping. PA had the best price at that time. Some people bought before me for less
PA is a thermometer for prices in this industry, you want it or not. Everybody compares the prices of others with PA (Cobra Airgun, Airguns of Arizona, Straight Shooters, Mid South, etc.)
That is because they buy more RWS airguns than all others, just look at the brands and versions PA has in their web site
Pyramid even tried to buy the GRT trigger from Charlie the Tuna but he said no. This was leaked by BB (Tom Gaylord) so they could change the Gamo trigger (at an extra cost of course)
If you want to buy an imported gun being it a RWS, Norica, Webley, etc. expect to pay more as time goes by
I should of bought 3 ea. M460 at PA and leave 2 in the box, then sell them in 6-9 months. I would do a $50 to $75 profit on each for sure. Making the cost for the one I keep to $300 to $350.
If I decide to sell in the future I know I will come even or make a little profit with my guns, they are an investment
you know the what they say "the bigger the boy the bigger the toy" that goes for me and you and Pyramid knows this.
They are very aggresively buying and making deals to be the biggest company in the airgun in the US. What happens when they achieve their goal is IFFY, will they start raising prices? maybe but in the meantime I will have the guns I want.
warren
and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"
Warren, very scary that PA will become the only airgun giant retailer. It is already happening and I don't even want to think about what will happen to the prices. They will surely go up if noone can compete with PA!
I really hope some of the other companies hang in there for a long long time. Competition is good and keeps the prices under control.
I 've said this in the past and will keep saying it. What we need is a big retailer like Cabellas or even MidSouth that also sells firearms and many other things, to pour some more money into buying more airgun products and variety (like PA) so that they may compete with PA and keep the prices in check. It will be beneficial to all of us. Now granted, PA does carry some dead stock - items that very few people buy, too much if you ask me but it's ok. I may have a need for one or two of those odd items one day. I 'm not talking about those. I 'm talking about popular air rifles and pistols and ammo! Most of these other BIG companies like Cabellas and outdoor sporting goods online vendors, carry only a couple of brands of guns and especially pellets, and out of those brands, only 3 or 4 pellet types, not the full line. Most of them don't carry JSB's and some other popular ones. You go search for airgun maintenance stuff and you get firearm gun oils and steel brushes, etc. They need to expand their airgun line of products. They don't seem to do their research to see what sells well or what people want. I hope they catch on soon to the fact that airgunning is becoming very popular and growing by leaps and bounds.
That's the only way to prevent PA from monopolising the airgun market. I 'd rather have 20 airgun online vendors to chose from, than just 1 or 2.
If you visit the Yellow forum a lot, you 'll read horror stories from people ordering from AirgunDepot or Airgun Warehouse, and other smaller companies, etc. Their CC gets charged and don't receive the product for weeks or months and noone answers the phone when they call! That to me means they are a 1 or 2 person operation that have full-time day jobs, with not much stock at hand, and order the products from the wholesalers after they receive your order! That just makes everyone go to PA more. We need some big companies to jump in and expand their airgun inventory with competitive prices before all we are left with is PA and pay whatever price they feel like asking that day..
I have to respectfully disagree with a few points. Umarex sets a high price because while it can sell the rifles, its not suposed to compete with its distributors. If it did they would stop selling product for Umarex. So its distribution network would get smaller. This used to mean a lot more when there were more airguns sold in stores than over the internet but the same still applies [here] because of the Bass Pro Shops, Cabellas and other large retailers selling Umarex lines in actual stores.
Pyramid would like to be that thermometer, but they can't just yet (or ever)because of Compasseco which was always larger then Pyramid and Airgun Express combined. Also, you have Airguns of Arizona which is the sole distributor of some lines Pyramid cannot even carry. Crosman is breaking into distributorship once again with their partnership with the new Webley. Crosman used to be the distributor for Logun. A Hell of a great brand of rifles. Who knows what Diasy will have up their sleeves in the coming months.
The dollar is weak because of a myriad of reasons and this could actually become an advantage. Mac1 is selling overseas like they haven't in who knows when. Its not as bleak as some would like us to believe. Here it is, we're in heavy inflation and the people who don't want this country to think its in recession are using symantics (two full quarters of the S&P/NYSE dropping below the third previous quarter) to say noooo we're not really in a recession... Listen, we are but a lot of us aren't going to be too much affected by it as we're not living on the edge of economic liquidity as the media would have us believe. We're still buying airguns even though we grumble about the prices? Pff we can still afford more than we realize even without hurting retirement funds etc.
Pyramid was trying to distribute Weihrauch directly and that's on the fold now. (I still want to see new HW35s in this country... dammit)
Pyramid wants to be as big as it can. Just like every other privately owned company in the world, but it ain't gonna happen. Not the way people think it will in this thread.
I agree with almost all your points.. we know Umarex is a wholesale distributor and the sole distributor of RWS. They cannot compete directly with the retailers they sell to, so they have to have their prices high hoping for a sale to a newbie or unsuspected victim
I 'm surprised Umarex even chose to sell directly to the public through their web site. Here in NY you are not allowed to sell to consumers if your business is registered as wholesale (I 've owned 3 businesses so I know quite a bit you could say). You must have a seperate resale licence AND your retail/resale establisment MUST be a different structure than that of your wholesale business!
Anyway like I said I agree with everything but however you said:
"..Compasseco which was always larger then Pyramid and Airgun Express combined."
The key word here is "was". They were larger. I don't think they are any longer. I bought my 350 from Compasseco at the end of the summer and got a pretty good deal, but I don't see too many people in the 5 forums I frequent, buying much from Compasseco or that name being mentioned much. PA has gotten VERY big and continues to grow. PA is mentioned 9 out of 10 times a reference to a vendor is made. I believe they may even have close to 80% of the airgun retail Internet business. God I hope not! If business keeps going down for Compasseco and many others, and going to PA instead, how long can those others afford to stay in business? I hope I 'm wrong. I don't want to see PA or even 2 companies as the main source of our airgun needs. I like to see competition and many different companies sharing the wealth. I like to have choices, not be forced to buy from this or that guy..
The reason you don't see Compasseco's name as much is the forums you and I generally probably frequent are occupied by folks looking for the best prices on the higher end airguns. I don't know this part for sure, but it wouldn't surprise me if Compasseco were the distributor for some of the less expensive airguns. So while Pyramid looks for the high dollar stuff, Compasseco walks all over them on volume of the mid to lower end stuff. And on volume I would not be surprised if Compasseco makes a lot more than PA. But Compasseco is well established and I'll bet not worried about being swallowed up by PA. I just don't think it'll happen the way people here think it might.
Its a niche thing. Things will be changing in a lot more ways in the next two years than people are envisioning. Change is ok, but don't confuse normal change with being bad for the airgunning community. The prices we pay are reflected in the weak dollar and that's about it. Its inflation is all. We're due for a giant market correction and the fed, Greenspan and now Bernanke (bless their idiot hearts) are using just a few mismanaged tools in all the wrong ways.
Umarex does not compete with it's distributor's because they would rather sell 1,000 RWS to them instead of individually. Billing, packaging, transport and the whole headache of selling one on one is avoided, lower profit margin at a high volume sell
Mac 1 is selling overseas because it is cheaper to export to some markets from the US due to the declining dollar. By the way Tim at Mac 1 was kind of complaining in the "Y" forum about crosman leaving him out of the Discovery PCP deal, it seams as since he does not buy volume crosman was not going to give him the same distributor price as Pyramid. If you buy 250 a month and I buy 25, guess who gets the best price?
Pyramid is not interested in selling 100 guns of the same version a year, they are only selling that specific brand, model and cal. if it goes out the door at a rate of 100 a month. Not on all its models but in 75% of their inventory. You should know that your inventory is worth $$$$ and if you are not selling something your money is sitting and not producing
HW brand is not a big seller compared to the hottest guns now, believe me when I say the RWS 850 and M34 are as HOT as the Benjamin Streak and crosman Discovery. Just go and see other forum's and you will see what I mean
I have no stock in Pyramid but I can see behind the curtain's what they are trying to do. There is no way you can compare Cabelas and Bass Pro with Pyramid, they are different animals. There are some companies that have a niche Mac 1, Mountain Air are with crosman, they dedicate themselves to that product the same way JM does with his maccari spring's. They grow at the rate that people buy the products they service. Pyramid grows the same but servicing exclusively the air gun market.
having said all this consider who Pyramid was 10 years ago and now, it is a force to contend with, lets hope it does not go to the DARK side of the Force
warren
and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"
Your first paragraph is just saying what I said earlier.
Your second paragraph is talking about just one airgun dealer.
Pyramid is again, one of many dealers and Compasseco is selling more than Pyramid. Unless Pyramid's prices fall below everyone elses its just.. not.. happening.
Then you said, "hottest guns now...". That's all they are, Warren. The "hot" guns of the moment. They'll level off in sales because they won't be the new kids on the block anymore. The consistant sales of the HW guns is far FAR higher than what the "airgun of the moment" happens to be. For a while the QB78 was a hot gun. Before that, the BSA Supersport ruled the roost. The R9 before that. The HW97 and the TX200 were hot for a while too.
But here's the difference: Unless the 850 is just stupid accurate it'll remain a cult gun. Even the CZ 631, accurate as it is, lost its place as the big new thing. That's what these forums are all about. You have to realize that. All the spazmodic attention over what just got released to the market fades as quickly as it appears.
The HW's, the AA's, the Dianas are all consistant sellers over time. Therefore they make the most money for dealers over the long term. Straightshooters used to sell some lower end airguns but they got out of that deal because they realized they were better off selling consistantly better made airguns in the long run. They're a local call for me and we talk about this kind of thing fairly regularly.
Another way to see this: You as a dealer buy crates of the hottest gun on the market. Everyone's talking about the new XYZ. Your crate comes, you sell half the stock and the internet interest falls off. You sell a few here or there. Suddenly the new thing is just another airgun. But you consistantly sell the higher end airguns because those in the know will continue buying them, higher price or not, because of the quality. Those in the know also tell their friends not to waste time buying less accurate airguns. See, the point is twofold. You now have too many of the newfangled XYZ in your stock but just enough of the consistant sellers. The XZY's are taking up inventory space. And if manufacture of XYZ gets lax because of demand now ya gotta send more back. But the solid standbys have already ridden that wave and see to it that build quality remains at a certain level.
So what if Pyramid is trying to do as you say. Don't you think they ought to? I do. But I also don't believe they can. The market is not what you think it is Warren. The people on the internet chat rooms, all of us, are just a small minority. You look at how many of us keep this forum flowing. What, less than ten of us? How many at the Yellow forum? Fifty? A hundred? And we all float from one forum to the next so those numbers don't add up to more airgunners for each forum. What you're seeing is not the whole picture. In fact, most airgunners lurk but don't post. And they do so because they're interested enough to read but less apt to post anything because they know more than the nonsense we all often let outselves get caught up in.
There's no way internet airgunners are the lifeblood of airgun sales. No way. That means the hot gun on the internet isn't necessarily the hot gun we all think it is. But it is on the internet. So? It helps sales because internet involved airgunners do certainly spend like freaks but take a look at those numbers again. The lot of us on the internet couldn't support Crosman to stay solvent if each and every one of us bought a Crosman Discovery. And a large percentage will, but they'll probably buy the thing because its the new deal. Oh well, Straightshooters will do just fine without the Discovery. If they sold some though, it would just be gravy for them. The solid sales are airguns like the R7 and R9. The AA TX200. Over time these airguns are the bedrock of sales. HW still makes the HW35, but we can't get new ones here. Why do I mention the HW35? The HW35 has been made for literally over fifty years! Quality. It'll sell long term after all the hoopla of trends are history.
Pyramid ought to do well. They're following a good business model as long as they pay attention to their customers. That's all that really matter when it comes to selling the high end quality airguns which support the long term spread sheets. But will they swallow up everyone else? C'mon Warren...? There are too many egos to go around.
including dealers and smiths - have stated that Compasseco is the biggest
and has been the biggest for a long time. Kinda surprised me the first
time I read it. I knew they had been around a long time but didn't think
they were the "Big Guy".
you are right in your view, I did not imply that Pyramid was going to swallow everybody, just making the point that they are being very aggresive
I also don't think all those companies sell more or that the internet buyers are in the equation, heck Walmart/kmart might be selling more BB and .177 guns than anybody in the USA
don't you agree
warren
and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"
Exactly. That's why Daisy can still be in business and also why Gamo is so strong. Because their marketing and price point put them squarely in the big box stores' isles. Gamo markets velocity at any cost in order to hang onto their place in Wal Mart's shelf space. And that's the ONLY reason they market velocity. To sell down the store isles where the most unknowledgeable people can walk by, see their product and its unrealistic velocity claims, buy them to shoot maybe all the pellets they bought that day with the gun and then stick it in a closet to be forgotten.
