With all the friendly debate going on about Cloned guns, I think the following below is worth repeating and on a separate post. I is from Harvey from another post!
Cloning is nothing new
January 22 2008, 6:18 PM
We're on the far end of the deal. We get what the manufacturers try to sell us. If we want, we might try to make those products better.
Here's the deal: China is a communist country with a capitalist economy. They purposely created it that way and its working. No, they don't have the freedom we have here but I'm not talking about anything except market and economy.
The market always has room for cheaper versions of the good stuff. Always will. China doesn't have the interest in building new from scratch products so they allow us to be the creative arms for them. Then they build what we want for less. Naturally with the lower cost, you're going to give a little in QC.
So you want to buy a gen-eeuwwwine German airgun? Better buy smart and save your nickels...meaning buy the old classics when you can find them. And research them. Manufacturing is evolving. "Rebranded" has been with us a long while. Doesn't mean its bad, just means you need to be aware of it.
I own a B20. Its an r9 copy. Freakin awesome air rifle. I adjusted my trigger so lightly you can literally blow on it and it will fire. Pull weight is in grams on that baby. No one who knows that gun will touch it. They're all say its unsafe. I tell em you treat any air rifle like its always loaded and has NO safety and you're at least on the right track.
Or, get y'self the B40. a Chinese TX copy with good results and tweakability in that the spring won't fly out and kill ya like it can on so many other airguns. Like my FWB124. Or any of my HW air rifles... Oh, and did I mention its accurate too?
Croman's new pcp is ok but you can get a Chinese Daystate copy which is a worlds better pcp. Get the B50 and forget it. Better accuracy. Better trigger. Been around a while. Better stock. Proven quality control. Its a copy of a *Daystate*, people!!! Hell, the B50 will FEEL like wquality when you hold it! Think the Crosman will? pff
Everyone forgets what's proven when something new appears...
Harvey, I agree with most of what you have stated, but disagree about the Crosman. How about waiting for the gun to come out before dismissing it. As Jay pointed out, the Crosman comes with a pump at that price! So already, you have given it a unfair evaluation. I truly believe you are correct in stating that the B50 is a great gun. I just think that the "Disco" (thanks Herb) will be a great success.
By the way, Herb, I did contact the marketing dept. at Crosman yesterday about "Disco"
Harry, you are missing the point, on the contrary we are doing just that! That is precisly what we are saying. We have been "raving about the fact that Crosman is trying to build a good pcp!" We are excited of the positive reviews that the gun has received by two well respected masters of the gun world. We are positive and excited about the "dual air" aspect of the gun! We are positive about the fact that a PCP and a Pump can be now affordable to the general public. We are excited about a gun the is built on the linage of a solid performer the 2260 which is a gun that has a whole field of followers. Gee, a new 25. cal. is about to come out and that got trashed like crazy. Everything from China is trashed, the new Ruger, which no one really has a clue is about is trashed. What purpose does it serve to trash the new "Disco" when no one has even had a chance to shoot it much less see it other than the two Pro's that have. By the way, if you really look at Chapmans report, he really looks as if he has done some intensive study of the gun.
You know what, it reminds me of the movie "THE FLIGHT OF THE PHOENIX" could it be built to fly? HELL YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I've shot a few 2260s in my day and I've shot both the Daystates and the B50 Chinese clone of the Daystates.
The trigger on the 2260 is not like the old Crosman triggers were. The B50 is not as nice as the Daystates but its a whole lot better than the Crosman triggers that are on their rifles today.
The 2260 stock is usable. The B50 stock actually feels rich the way it comes to shoulder.
The B50 doesn't come with a pump. Not many people stick with a pump for long. Its arduous to say the least. Much better to scuba bottle and be done with it. Also, better not shoot for a bit after pumping up your inflatable rifle until that heart rate comes back down or you're just wasting shots on missing the target more often. In the long run those who like pcp get the scuba tanks. The shooter is most likely to buy it anyway so why not skip the hassle of learning the hard way when there people who are experienced tell new pcp owners the better route from having gone through it.
I wish Crosman all the luck with this rifle. They made a great decision to bring it to market. It'll be a fun rifle for lots and lots of people. The hand pump in this case has to be added to the package or who would buy a rifle which needs extra gear? Prospective unlearned pcp owners would balk at the idea of having to spend more money toward just using the rifle if the pump or a tank were sold seperately.
Here's where the B50 is already aimed at familiar-with-pcp users. The rifle is aimed at a different class of shooters. Albeit ones who aren't going to spend a thousand dollars or more on the rifle, but still want a really good pcp. They'll drop the coin for the scuba bottle because they read enough or heard enough that its the way to go. Screw pumping, that has to be done slowly in order not to overheat the pump etc etc.
Listen. Practically everyone's shot a 2260 at some point. The discovery will feel basically like that. Maybe a little heavier for the added air tank. Fewer have shot Daystates and the B50. I have and I'm telling you from my experience the B50 is the better choice.
The added footpump is just a necessity to help sell the rifle. Eventually the vast majority will opt for a fill tank. The pump will collect dust once the advantages of the air tanks are seen [in use].
Harvey, The point I am trying to make is not a comparison of the guns. I really do not want to get into a pissing match over the specs. of a Daystate vs B50 vs Discovery. First of all, I am not even a pcp guy (yet). I just bought the 850 and will enjoy that rifle for awhile. The point I am trying really hard to make IS, Crosman is on the way to developing a new generation of PCP shooters. This is a gun that will appeal to many youngsters and older folks as well. It is just the beginning. This is a gun a kid can take as his first pcp and mod like crazy. I doubt many kids even know what the hell a Bam 40 is, much a "DayState". RWS diehards will never acknowledge that the 2260 is in fact a very popular gun. I have done a lot of homework, and know that Crosman sells a ton of these rifles. By, the way, Harv, you did read that the new stock will be Walnut(or oak), didn't you. Also a kid on a budget will not have a problem pumping 25 to 30 strokes into the gun to get 25 more shots. If he does, he should not be shooting anyway, and should consider a good jogging program over guns. Ok, so at some point let the "Discovery" guy move up to a Daystate! Great! How about telling Daystate to get off their butts and do a little marketing! If they are so great then lets hear it! I would venture to say that by the time the Disco owner gets around to learning about a Daystate, he will have modified the hell out of his gun to include a new trigger, (this moot point was actually mentioned in the review by Chapman) and will be buying the Daystate as just another gun. I think Bill is one person that understands the point I am trying to make. You either want to see a new revolution of air gunning come into existence or continue behind close doors. By the way, does Daystate have a program like Crosman for youth clubs, providing guns and targets at discounts? Why Not?
I think you and I are not quite connecting somehow. I feel like you're taking away something else than what I meant in my posts.. That could be my own fault but..
Aside from that...
Daystate is in GB. I don't know what programs they have or who is involved. I do know they are considered one of the pinnacle airgun makers in the world.
Dave... the only revolution I want to see is people actually working to be the best shooters they can be. I want a forum revolution where people talk about the ins and outs of the process of shooting.
The Discovery is a platform gun. That's all. The Chuntsman B51 is a copy of a complete rifle. The Daystate Huntsman IS a complete rifle.
Does that mean the Doscovery won't be enjoyed by all who own one? Not at all. But it also doesn't mean that just because an American company brings out a model we should put the blinders on to others which fall into a similar catagory.
Been great debating with ya. Maybe we won't agree, but that's ok as far as I'm concerned lol. You're a damn good guy Dave
