Well the enjoyment of the new 850 .22 has worn off. The guys on the 850 forum told me the velocities reported by the chrony are too low and helped me discover a leak.
A simple trick of putting some toilet paper tissue (or Kleenex) over the receiver where the magazine is, proved there was a leak when the tissue jumped up in the air while firing. Some of the gas is leaking back out of the breech area or somewhere. Maybe a breech seal or some other seal, don't know, but this guns like 4 seals maybe more from what I 've been reading. No gas should be getting back through the magazine and out of the gun. It's all supposed to go out the muzzle, that much I know.
Oh well, I hope Umarex repairs it and ships it back quickly. Anyone know approximately how long is their turnaround time? I 'll give them a call soon. Waiting for the 850 forum guys to get back to me with more info on what's causing this leak now that we know I have one. I want to sound informed and not stupi when I call Umarex
BTW, a lot of guys are having issues with velocity, seals & other parts missing from inside the gun, etc. Sounds like the QC sucks at the 2-3 German companies/factories that make this gun. I had no idea from than one company manufactured it under the permission/licensing of Hammerli & Umarex.
Diana 350 Mag .22
Hammerli 850 .22
Various Crosman CO2 & Pump
does not mean all are bad. send it back and get another one, if you get another dog of a gun send it back again
it's your good money buying the 850 let UMAREX deal with the QC issues of RWS. When they find out 125 ea. model 850 are comming for repairs a week they will fix it in a heart beat
warren
and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"
I do believe that is demand outstripping supply and the manufacturer is scrambling to meet it (which outsourced 3 or 4 is anybodies guess) . Umarex will fix it . I've heard that turn around can be as little as a week up to 5 weeks . If it's just the breech seal , should be a quick return .
heheh, well when others are getting over 600fps indoors at room temp. with 14.3gr pellets and I 'm getting 540, you know it's shooting like a "dog"
I 'm tempted to call MSS where I bought it from and see if they 'll send me a new gun. It's not really their fault though and I was very happy with the service and the way they treated me. Very polite and apologetic when the lady put me on hold for a couple of minutes to run down to the warehouse to check on an item for me! I said no need to apologize, you did me a favor. Very nice people at MSS..
If it's just a seal I 'll have Umarex fix it - should be quick. I 'll have to go through the hassle of shipping somewhere anyway. It's a mechanical failure so I don't think MSS or any other vendor is obligated to send a new gun out. Most have disclaimers on all RWS guns saying "no returns - must deal with Umarex distributor or authorized repair center".
Diana 350 Mag .22
Hammerli 850 .22
Various Crosman CO2 & Pump
If it is a bad seal, it's most likely the bolt seal. Too bad they can't just send you a couple and you could replace it yourself - not a difficult repair.
"but I'll be needin' that gun, fer squirrels and such."
Harry: Sorry to hear about your 850. I think you will be very pleased w/ service/turn around w/ them. My first exp.: shipped my 460 on wends.- back on following Tues.! New mainspring NO CHARGE! Second exp.: aprox. 2 weeks due to the fact part was on backorder. Again no charge. (be prepaired to send your recpt.& discription of your prob w/ gun). I did follow up w/ ph. call on second repair,(after week &half) Spoke w/ "Ryan" he was a GREAT help, very profesional & seemeemed genuinely concerned. He advised me of back order status of part,(at first he said my gun had never arrived, but tracked it down!) He was great & I would suggest you ask for Ryan. I would never hesitate to send any of my Diana guns to Umarex/Arizona for factory repairs! Yah, like you, I hated the hassle of packing up my new gun&parting w/ it, but my baby was back home in short order! Diana/RWS./Umarex RULES!!! (guess that is why we are all here!) Good luck Harry! P.S., Both times they sent my gun back with 2 tins of pells.!! Good shootin my friend,Tim.
I am inclined to think Harry has a perfect gun! Nothing wrong with the gun at all. Harry is judging his shots and velocities on others at about 50 fps difference. So what? At room temperature? This is dead winter and temps, will vary like crazy, but the fact that Harry is "ANAL" about power. (no offense Harry)n is obvious that he would be sending the gun back. I knew he was not going to be happy with a 22.cal shooting at a rated 655 fps. velocity on the ads. Harry, put this gun up for sale and take your losses now. Someone will buy it when it comes back from Umarax with a New Seal that it does not even need. Then, if you still want a high powered Pcp. then buy a "Denominator" like I told you in the first place. Harry, I go into homes all day long and use a temp. gun to judge house hold temps. I see a 10- 20 degree difference on every home I go into.
Room temp is generally thought to be 70 degrees. Right now in my basement in WI, it is 58 degrees. Big difference in CO2 performance at those temps.
As for the breech leaking and moving a Kleenix, that can occur in a normal functioning gun. Some designs lend themselves to leakage more than others. I can't really say if the 850 design is one of them as I have never had mine charged. I can say that a repeater, by nature of design, tends to be mroe succeptable to this. Again, I don't know if it's true of the 850.
"but I'll be needin' that gun, fer squirrels and such."
Harry: My 2 cents: Before you ship back to Umarex:,, CO2 reapeaters, (especiably) will almost always have some degree of (lost gas). It is just inherent with the design,(ie, alot of seals between propulsion,&projectile).I do not have an 850, however, CO2 guns most all live within certain power limits. They are temp. dependant as Im shure you know! Tom. I will rev. your past fps. results.,,, But if Im not mistaken I seem to remember around 600 or just under for 22/14.3 gr.?? Even 550+ w/22 cal. from a stock CO2 gun,given all the "Stages" for gas to final "push" Would seem pretty acceptable. (to me). Get all new seals, but Ill bet toilet paper will ALWAYS move some when you send pells a,flyin!! Tim.
I'm sure mine would not pass the "toilet paper" test either. Initially, I was a little concerned with my extreme spreads and my sub 600 fps velocities. I had to remind myself of the reason I bought the gun in the first place, "A fun to shoot, fairly accurate backyard plinker for around $200.00"
I think this gun fits the bill nicely for the price but I do have a tendancy sometimes to over think things and get a little nit picky...as my wife with the big ear lobes keeps reminding me!lol
needs to go back to Umarex. Others on the 850 forum have had this problem where the air comes out of the right side of the action where the breech and magazine (removed) is. This means it's not the bolt/probe seal but a spring hammer seal inside the gun. I checked the green probe seal (at the end of the bolt which goes into the breech) and it's perfect. Nothing wrong with it.
The air blowing out of 1 side only is a symptom of an internal bad seal as I mentioned, according to others in the 850 forum.
If some of you feel you can live with a 60fps loss, then that's your decision. It's not mine. This gun is new and I want it in new working order and getting the same velocity most others are enjoying with their 850 .22. Besides I want some free pellets like Tim got!!
Diana 350 Mag .22
Hammerli 850 .22
Various Crosman CO2 & Pump
Harry, I really am looking forward to when you get your gun back, and see the new chrony results. Can Umrarax get you that xtra 50 fps? Or will it be shipped back again?
Harry, I reread your post and thought your high 574 velocity on a winter day indoors was very interesting. First of all, I have seen other post, and yours seems about average. Secondly, the gun is only rated in the advertisements at 655! That is the highest possible rating with the lightness pellet at about 100 degrees! You know that. Also, what are you using for a temperature gauge? Hopefully not your household thermostat, which can be off like crazy. How close is the thermostat to the gun? A few degrees makes a lot of difference in gas expansion. You say, you want a extra 60 fps. Wow! That would make your gun shooting at 634 fps on a cold day for a gun ONLY rated at 655! I think Umarex has their work cut out for them.
By the way, I appreciate your choice in getting a 22. cal in the 850 for hunting. I choose the 177.cal to get the higher velocities. The higher velocities combined with a heavy pellet will give me all the power I need to shoot starlings and squirrels, I would not shoot anything bigger than that anyway. That is what my 460. is for, and I will be using the gun more for target practice and plinking.
Well, I hope a new seal makes your gun faster. You might consider not even pulling the chrony out when it comes back, and just enjoy the gun. Or at least turn the thermostat up to 100 degrees when you wife is not home and then do some shooting. Hopefully, you will get the gun back soon. Umarex is great service and it should not be much to replace a seal.
Thanks, I think you know me a little better than that.. I know what I 'm talking about and have done a lot of reading and private e-mail communications with a couple of very knowledgeable people in the last couple of days.
The gun shot 560-570 when it didn't have any blowback. Now it does and it shoots 530-540 with a brand new cartridge at 73 degrees, validated by 2 different mercury thermometers. My thermostat is also very accurate too.
This is a post from today (under 850 information). It's a reply to someone interested in FPS and buying an 850 .22:
"I shoot in my basement which stays around 55-60ish degrees F and was getting a steady 570-580 fps with Superdomes. I brought the gun upstairs and warmed it to 68 F, went back down to shoot and the velocity jumped to 605-610 fps."
The chrony #'s I 'm seeing now are not average #'s by any means at 73-74deg. I have been in constant communication with the 850 forum owner and he is convinced the gun shoots low, has a leak, and needs repair. This is from a guy who owns 1/2 dozen 850's and has done several different mods to them and shoots them different CO2 methods like 9oz PB tanks, recharges his AS cylinders, etc. Also I received an e-mail from another other very knowledgeable guy that owns 2 850's. He has also confirmed the gun's velocity is not up to par and he walked me through a couple of other things to check too.
This is what Roald the forum owner says:
"most folks are getting in the high 500's to low 600's right now (below 60degrees) Once it gets back up over 70 then we will see better speeds"
You guys are underestimating the 850.. especially you Dave. I had done my research before ordering the gun. I didn't chrony it first and then started looking for chrony #'s.. Velocities of the .22 850 had been documented on the forum by many people going back 5-6mos.
My gun developed the leak during or after the chrony testing the other day. I have not been able to get anything over 544fps with 1min. rest between shots. 73deg is warm, believe me, I 'm sweating in here. I also have my own thermostat in my office where I keep most of my guns and do my testing. It does not affect the rest of the house. Almost every room it my house has its own zone and thermostat. You forget I 'm an engineer..
The gun also has a problem with a slightly bent probe. It 's very hard to slide the probe (at the end of the bolt) into the breech without the magazine in place (pellets & clip removed from the equation). I have to pull the bolt handle out to the right while pushing it forward, so it can go int the breech semi-smoothly. If I don't excert that lateral force, it just gets stuck before entering the breech on the steel because it's not going in centered and the round metal ring in front of the probe seal slams into the metal action like 1/2 milimeter to the left of the breech opening.
Anway if I can get the gun to shoot in the 570's again I 'll be happy, believe me, although everyone is saying I should be getting 600+fps at 74 degrees indoors with 14.3 pellets. I 'll settle for 30fps not 60, ok how is that? Does it make you happy Dave?
A blowback is a leak and it is NOT normal. Not on a $200 new gun anyway. If people are happy with blowbacks in their CO2 guns, more power to them. I don't settle for mediocrity. I am not happy when it's happening to my brand new $200 gun. If I had a cheap $55 Crosman 1377 or even a $90 2250 and was getting blowback I wouldn't be too upset. Hek, I 'll spend that much in AirSource CO2 cylinders in ~4-6 months time I suspect!
I also like the idea sending it to Glenn at Umarex because Roald said he will not only straighten out the probe (and fix the seal), but he will debur and polish the breech chamber as well to ensure loading pellets is very smooth, as well as go over everything on the gun, properly lube it and fire test it. I have high regard for Glenn so I wouldn't mind him tweaking my gun and making it function the way it should, or better.
Dave if you want to continue this conversation, please send me an e-mail so we can get back to Dianas. I feel bad taking people's time reading my Hammerli 850 troubles.
Harry
Diana 350 Mag .22
Hammerli 850 .22
Various Crosman CO2 & Pump
