I posted a message a couple of weeks ago about my RWS 460 .22 loss of power. I was shooting CPs at 400fps. It only has 1000 shots through it and is two months old. I sent it back to Umarex and talked with the rep. They said had to install a new breech seal and piston O-Ring. They have great service. They shipped the gun backed to me the same day they received it. When I got it back, with the chrony, I was shooting 845-852fps with CPs. After 50 shots, I start another round of shots on the chrony and now its shooting consistent 800-802fps! Tried other pellets and every one of them have dropped approx 30fps. What gives? All firing is done indoors. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I don't want to tear the gun apart and ruin the warranty.
Re: RWS 460 .22 loss of power after Umarex return?
January 26 2008, 12:23 PM
I would say let the seals wear in and check it again in a hundred shots or so. There's a chance its been properly lubed now and that stuff is slowing it a little as its breaking back in, too.
That's exactly what I told him on the Yellow forum except I said shoot 100-150.. great minds think alike
Marty, glad you came here for advice. It looks like you got about 4 of the same responses so far between the yellow and Dianawerk. Break it the way it is more and then put it through the chrony again. It should pick up some.
Anytime you make a change to a springer you have to let "it settle". Everything needs to "seat" and get used to the other part touching it or adjacent to it, etc. I hope that makes it more clear..
Wouldn't hurt to call Glenn on Monday anyway to ease your fears. He 'll be hearing from the both of us (got issue with another gun)!
Diana 350 Mag .22
Hammerli 850 .22
Various Crosman CO2 & Pump
is that the first #'s are 845-852 with a 7 fps difference and 2dn is 800-802 for a 2 FPS difference, that tells me it is shooting consistently
you send it to UMAREX and received a lubed gun and when you fire it will have some dieseling maybe small but still some and some amount of detonation. that means the pellet was helped by the burn of some oil in the gun. when I shoot my Quest for the first time it sounded like a 22 rimfire, my neighbors came out and shouted "warren did you just shoot a gun in the backyard" and that was with central air conditioning in his house
keep shooting and bet you it will settle in and maybe go some FPS up, maybe not. still 800 fps is a lot of TWAK power in any gun and in .22 cal. bet you can touch someting at 30-40 yards
warren
and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"
Probably a little extra dieselling from the get-go after the work
and now a bit snug new piston seal is 'riding' a tad slow down the
compression tube/cylinder 'trail'. Even if it doesn't get back up
to mid 800s a quite tight 800ish sure can't be so bad. That's
RX2 and Tommy territory or plenty of springer magnum power.
I'd also check to make sure the lighting is correctly positioned & sky screen supports are marked for optimum read (4 -6 " on a Shooting Chrony) . How close to the muzzle is the chrony positioned ? Are you further away than previous reads ?
Due to the consistant across the board cut in velocity - I'm going with the crowd and voting "Break in all over "
and fire another tin or two of pellets through her then put her back on the chrony. After another 30 shots she is still all over the place. 782-808. Another 500 shots or so and lets see. Firing really straight though. Ranged a bird this morning at 56 yds and lights out in one shot. I guess solid 800s isnt bad.
Thanks
After another 100 shots, here are the chrony numbers: 761,764,763,772,762 (fired 200 shots now after return from Umarex, but barrel has about 1500 shots through it now).
I know I need to keep shooting to break it in, but something just doesnt seem right. Why do the numbers continue to fall the more I fire it? 760s and about and 80-90 fps drop from after the repair. I will continue to fire and update.
I know I got a lot of recommendations to keep firing to break it in and not worry about the chrony, but how low would you allow the chrony to go before you know something is wrong? I mean, I have heard guys say that I should be happy with low 800s, but 760s? Is there something causing this? Should I just request a replacement rifle, send it back again for look at and possible repair (second time in 1.5 months), or keep firing it even though fps continuously drops?
Thanks in Advance!
Does the piston hit hard when shot.I tested my seal when cocking i held my finger on the transfer port and waited 30 to 40 seconds then realeased my finger a hear the air rush in,i would'nt know how it would work on a underlever.That's how i found a bad seal on my 34.Probably is'nt a good way to check a seal out but it worked for me.
with declining #'s of fps in your gun and I understand. this is your gun and our opinions not our guns and your opinion.
document all the pellets shoot, day's you shoot and FPS and call UMAREX and explain the situation, tell them you feel there is something wrong and you want to send the gun back and want a replacement since it has been serviced once by them. I know you will not be happy with that gun the way it shoots.
there is nothing worse than losing confidence in a gun and that is how you feel by reading your post. you loose nothing sending it back and if you get another one at 800 fps consitently then you regain the confidence of the gun.
good luck
warren
and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"
Also the underlever will no longer lock. Yes I have already messed with the adjustment on the end. It seems like something is holding the lever from locking, even if I really tighten the adjustment. I think its something to do with the breech.
To Umarex tomorrow morning.
neither velocity nor locking condition are normal. Back to Umarex for sure.
Man that sucks. I hope I don't run into that after I get my gun back..
Did Umarex pay for any of the shipping or did you have to pay the ship. both ways when you sent your gun in? I 'll be doing that on Monday with the 850 (CO2 rifle) on Monday or Tuesday, and would like to know what to expect.
thanks
Harry
Diana 350 Mag .22
Hammerli 850 .22
Various Crosman CO2 & Pump
this morning (Ryan) and informed him of the problem. I also informed him that this was the second time that I was sending this gun back to them for again firing 740s fps and now the rifle will not close to fire. He said something about a bent underlever (huh, how the heck would it just bend like that) and the possibility of a bad spring. I told him that I would really just like a new rifle since this was the second time I am sending it back to Umarex. He did not say yes or no, but said that he would let the gunsmith look at it and talk to me. I personally think given the situation that instead of fixing it yet again, to just give me a new replacement. I have now paid a total of 35 dollars for shipping. We will see what happens.
The guys assigned to fix airguns for this or
that manufacturer aren't usually IMO like a
Paul Watts, Jan Kraner, Ed K., Alan Z., Tim M.,
Jim Maccari, etc.
Gets old quick having to pay shipping for a
fix over and over again in a short period of
time. Nothing like a 'free' under waranty fix!
Ryan said a bend underlever, he is full of it, that are delay tactics from the vendor
"He did not say yes or no" He does not have to say yes or no, it's your decision to tell them I want a replacement and that is FINAL
"You will see what happens", NO you will demand a replacement and DO NOT let them convince you other wise
before you send it back call Ryan and tell him you are sending it back for a replacement and that is final, stand your ground or you will get a replacement
your call from here on
warren
and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"
A bend in the Underlever? Maybe the spurving bearing are fluxing!
February 3 2008, 1:42 AM
Sounds like going to a bad car shop. "could be bad muffler bearings". I think it is time to talk to someone else. We have a whole lot of RWS guys here. This is really not helping to sell RWS. I wonder if it would not be better off to send the gun to a pro and just get a full tune and take your losses? Sorry to hear about the Warranty issues. It really takes a lot of steam our of the "DIANA LIFETIME WARRANTY". The next time I buy a gun from Diana, I will just understand that he will eventually be sent in for a major tuning and to hell with their warranty. Good luck with your gun Marty. I hope Umarex visits this site.
Ed I believe, but he said he has his hands full for the next few months and was not taking any other rifles. If anyone knows a good reputable tuner, please let me know.
Thanks
BTW, I have been calling Umarex last week but finally got a recorded message on Friday that they were at the shot show until the middle of next week. I guess another week without my 460.
Dont feel bad Marty. I am not as fortunate as you are. My gun is acting very simular to yours. But, I let Glenn sucker me into buying this demo 460 with atomatic void warrenty at a price I could not refuse,When I was actually calling him about buying a 350. So I have a crap 460 just like you do. BUT there is nothing I can do about it. You are lucky,at least you can still cut and run. John
I just bought a 46e ware house find from Glen at Umerex . I too was offered the new used no waranty products that they have to offer when Glen knew i was on a tight budget and over my limit . I felt he was trying to help me not presure me. THE next day i phone him back and asked him to help me a little more on the 46e and he did.I new i still had a slight risk factor here with a gun that had been warehouse for a while but it was what i wanted in a .177 which i could not find any where else let alone at this price and i bought it . Knowing that i had a warranty to cover it and that i would have to pay shipping cost if need be to have it repaired. I got the rifle this week put my 3-12 bsa on it and at 16 yards its a nail driver for me and a friend that shot it as well. We are both smiling .I know i only have about 100 shots through it but its a good shooter already . Also the rife was in excelent shape when i got it. Yes i would rather have had the opportunity to see and hold the gun befor the purchase but thats life and i have to except that . I would not hesitate to buy from him again . Marvin
Marvin, I think you misunderstood me. I do not have buyers remorse because the gun did not look or feel the way I like. I am very disappointed because the gun is all over the place. I have spent days trying to tune the bugs out of it and the gun refuses to be consistant. It has the one piece C mount, an RWS 3x9 30mm illuminated retical. I only have about 250 rounds trough it. BUT you can just tell the inconsistency is because somthing is screwed up inside. It even has an odd sounding report here and there. Im sorry, It really reminds me of a 1995 chinese piece of crap gun. And yes it is probobly not broke in compleatly BUT COME ON NOW, Can you get what Im saying Marvin.
1st and foremost : Are *you* consistant ? Make the C-mount go away . They can be made to work but are usually an excersize in frustration. Try some other pellets . What pellets have you tried ?
First, I would like to say thank you for your advice. I have centered the adjustments ( on whole scope mount) and blue locktited ALL of them. Then I check for movement frequently on C mount AND scope rings. I have her sucessfully locked down and zeroed in with the riffle. Yes , the one piece C mount is labor intensive to set up. But I think I have her out of the equation. But you are deffenatly right in suspecting the C mount. The 460 will (sometimes) shoot 10 or better shots consistantly accurate. Then take a fit and start printing all over the place. Then eventually sorting herself out (with out adustment) and start shooting consistantly again. I can get this out of a chinese gun, Right ?
I am still learning that a springer (this is not my first) can be much more tempermental than most other projectile firing implements. But , if my trigger is smooth and light, my aiming device is adjusted and stable, barrel clean,shooting style prooven (with same gun). Then gun shoots fine then starts printing all over the place,then straightens out again by itself. Then repeats 15 shots later Guess what, the action is NFG. That is just how I see it. Sorry Rick. Now if you think Im screwing up somewhere,By all means call me on it.
I can't diagnose you or your gun long distance . I'm not an airgunsmith/tuner. Hell! I haven't stayed in a Holiday Inn Express *ever* . I'm still "guessing" it's the shooter or mount /recticle dysfunction. I wish you luck and do post what you find out .
What has happened to Marty could happen to us all. His service is not satisfatory and tarnishes the integrity of the Diana trade mark. I suggest we all send a link of this post to Diana in Germany with a personal e-mail of concern. We then cc Umarex and the store where he purchased the gun from. This IS the Dianawerk forum. We should have some voice on the integrity of the name and we should be there to backup a fellow Diana owner. Is this a RWS Warranty or a Chinese Warranty?
Any other suggestions? We need to get the ball rolling.
Befor you go head hunting maybe you should try some different holds on your gun . Even let some one else shoot it and see what happens it does not take much rifle chant to throught things off.even to much cheek preasure can do it .and the pellet issuse try some heaver pellets . dont become discuraged and vent on rws . make sure you have elminated self on this issue. befor you pull the trigger.i had a simular problem with another gun and it was me not the gun that was throwing the groups off and a scope level and light hold cured the problem.Marvin
Mello, You are correct in all you were saying. I am just ticked off after working so hard and ending up with something that shoots like 5 lbs. trigger Gamo with open sights,thats all. BTW I tried 90 % of your suggestions. Remember Im not trying to get dime size groups at 30 meters here. I am primarily a hunter and would be happy with consistly small jelly jar lid size groups at 15 to 20 yds. Thats not really much to ask out of a air rig that cost $710 if I would not have shoped like heck for it. Cant or no cant. at that range.
Mello, I did not mean to sound like a riffle idiot. I know cant counts. IMHO dont think it counts near as much at 7 or 8 yrds. . thats all I was saying.
I agree an email or dozen linking back to this thread would influence in Marty's (and all of our ) favor. The warranty iirc allows Umarex a chance at fixing or replacing the piece "at the option of RWS" (think they need to update the warranty wording ? )and it does indeed state "for only the cost of shipping and handling" . I do *not* think multiple s&h out of buyers pocket is mentioned . Enough is enough - Once should have covered it - the "fix" should now be at their cost .
Before we go on a mission to make Umarex look bad, we should give them a chance to get back and work on Marty's 460. If Marty reports back that the gun is not functioning properly again, then I agree with the aforementioned course of action.
Diana 350 Mag .22
Hammerli 850 .22
Various Crosman CO2 & Pump
Harry, the bottom line, is that a new gun should have been issued. Marty has a lemon. Dammit, no one should have to pay that much money for a gun and not get the service of the Quality of the Gun. I have read to many good things about Beeman service. either Umarex wants to give "great" customer service or lame service. It could very well just be the person that Marty is talking to. I have had great service through Glen and not great service through some other guy. But this has gone on long enough. Harry, that gun should never have been sent back in the first place. Harry, right now, I am thinking to myself that I do not have a warranty with my Diana's. Reading this nonsense has really soured me. If RWS wants to be known as the best then "JUST DO IT". If Urmarex does not bend over backwards to take care of this issue then I will just switch over to Beemans. How can someone knock the Chinese guns when their service is about the same?
Lame and shoddy service is fast becoming a standard in America. Either take a stand or get out of the way.
Im just sitting back watching the show wondering what future RWS costomers will think when they see this. This is the beatiful thing about a non sposored forum. Everone can get the straight dope on something. Without getting pressured to edit out all the non promotional truth about something.
I think its important to give straight information..
February 3 2008, 10:45 AM
and that's what I am doing. Wow, thanks for all the support, I didn't think I would get this amount of responses.
The last time (read initial post) I sent it to Umarex, they recieved rifle at 10am and it was being shipped back to me by 2pm that same day. I was like wow. Now, they recieved it last Wed in the AM and I have heard nothing other than Ryan saying the gunsmith will have to call me back when he (gunsmith) gets to my rifle. He never did, so that's when I called back on Friday and got the recording that they were headed to the shot show. I spoke with Ryan twice last week, told him about having to send it back again, the money I spent on the rifle and shipping. Any good customer service rep would have apologized and sent a new warranty replacement. Just my two cents.
Also, I sent a link to Diana Germany about this thread. Thanks for the idea. Does anyone know if Umarex or RWS in Germany reads this forum at all?
Thanks again
John can i ask you at what distance you are shooting when you have the grouping problem with your 460 and is your ao adjustment set properly on your scope for that distance. trying to help Marvin
Yes I did, But you saying that makes me think a little harder about that. I did notice something strange. The 460 with ao adjusted would shoot bad groups up close 7 to 8 meters (actual target) yet at about 26 meters after adjusting the ao I could hit a beer can almost every time. The groups where so poor up close that there was no way the inaccuracy mutiplied further out should translate into even hitting a beer can at that distance. Now,this is not counting the fits that it will get where it would be hard to kill zone a racoon. Thank you for pitching in.
John the parallex problem is multiplied the other way around the closer you are to the target the more parallex you will have resd this article and may be it will help .http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=5026&PN=1 also here is one on chanting that might help.http://scoplevel.com/ when i had grouping problems i read these then removed my scope and at the close distance i was haveing problems with i sighted my rifle in with open sights makeing sure i was not chanting it and the prolem when away. which told me it was the scope . which i replaced with a bsa 3-12 with ao adjust and i placed a scope level on it and now i can hit the mark. all im saying is try and eliminate the what could bes befor you give up .9 times out of 10 inacuracy is not the power plant and manufactors know this much as well. marvin
Thats exactly what I was saying. Closer in it looked like paralax might be the problem. Because farther out the riffle was shooting better. Thats what I ment. ANd I will try to keep an eye on my natural cant that I do.
I know this message wasnt for me. But am responding because I know you are right. I will refrain from chucking stones at the Umerex and or the 460. I would like to see if I can get my 460 straitend out though. It would be nice to own the gun it is supposed to be.
However if you need any help, we are here for ya. Besides Glen is a heck of a nice guy, and I do admit that he has always given me good service. That said. It should not happen again. Good luck.
And I also need to get you experts some real numbers to go by. My pop and I have been searching through boxes (from the move) for that damn crony. I swear that sucker is hiding on us.
Spoke with Ryan again this morning at 8:30AM
I asked him about my 460 that I mailed there 8 days ago. He checked and said that it was ready. I informed him again that I did not want that rifle, that this was the second time in 1.5 weeks that I have had to ship it back for repair, and that I wanted a new replacement. Again he did not say yes or no, but that he had to dig for the paperwork and call me back when he found it. Also, I sent an email and link to this thread to RWS Diana Germany last Sunday and have still gotten no response. To date my actions are:
-One telphonic message left with service dept on 28 Jan about problem with 460 (have yet to recieve a response).
-One email to RWS Diana Germany (no response)
-Three phone calls to Umarex (Ryan)=1)Would have to speak to gunsmith and will call you back. No call back 2)Have rifle and will have gunsmith call you back (no call back)3)Gun is ready and will have to dig up paperwork and call you back (what are the chances)?
Sorry guys, I know you are die hard Diana fans, but I am not pleased with my first RWS product or RWS customer service.
Ive been thinking about going PCP. Might be a good time to take a better look at that Shinsung Career Utra 9mm. I was going to buy one when I happened on this 460. Maybe I should have. They only thing that kept me from getting one was that I could only find a couple of reviews on the whole web. And Im not even sure the reviews wernt planted by dealers. And PA never answered my email asking question about the gun.
