beyond 50 yds. with an airgun? Do you usually or mostly get or
achieve a "quick kill"? Do you usually or mostly either get a
"quick kill" hit or the few times you miss you miss the pest/
game completely?
I'm talking any airgun from smallbore to bigbore, PCP, springer,
pumper, etc. and pests/game from mouse to deer.
I'm just kinda curious. Please share a bit of the details: gun,
scope, caliber, critter, conditions, etc.
I've done it enough to trust myself with certain airguns
January 31 2008, 7:58 PM
The one thing that can change the whole outcome is movement by the critter. Since I'm most often pest culling this can mean a follow up shot if the animal moves.
The airguns I trust for long range at this point:
R11 PW ADV tuned, Bushnell Legend 5-15x40
HW77K Gary Steel rebuild/tune Leapers lit reticle 3-9-40
Air Arms Prosport, Leapers lit reticle mildot 3-9x50
FWB 124 Maccari tuned, Beeman Blue Ribbon model 60 (Hakko?) 2-7x32
BSA Goldstar .22 10 shot repeater- former scope on HW77
BSA Supersport .22 Bushnell Sportview 3-9. Can't find the scope presently because I'm doing trigger work but the scope is a very early version Sportview.
All the aforementioned rifles have taken game up to rabbit size to fifty yards. Striped gophers are the most skittish. Pigeons best with the 22 rifles. HW77K most often between thirty and forty five yards. The 124 is spooky but I think I bent the barrel slightly. Prosport, I still haven't determined the end of its effective range yet. The R11 has taken a SPARROW at 88 yards. Unfortunately I was not the guy shooting when that shot happened. I was holding the rangfinder and telling him where to place the shot according to the mildots. But the R11 routinely takes sparrows out to fifty yards.
Herb:
I have not attempted any shots at critters 50yds out but if I can quickly kill a crow at 44-45yds with the CP going right through it, I doubt much is going to be safe to 50-60yds when the 350 gets a good scope. I 'm thinking of ordering the Bushy Legend 5-15X40 once I get the 350 tuned.
Harv:
It's interesting that most of your rifles have a 9X max. magnification and you have achieved shots well beyond 50yds. I put a 3-9X on the 850 .22 two days ago and have done some target shooting at different ranges. I find it a little difficult to shoot very accurately beyond 40yds mainly because at 8X (9X is slightly blurry on this $42 Tasco Golden Antler) it does not provide enough magnification, to me anyway, to get up close to a 7/8" bullseye. I don't have any issues at 20 & 30yds and can manage 40yds, although that would be the max that I feel comfortable with this scope. The center hole is not visible well when I put the paper out at 45yds & 50yds. It looks tiny and the crosshairs barely fit on the small 7/8" circle. Perhaps a full 1" might make a difference so I will look for some bigger targets to print.
I 'm amazed you can shoot sparrows at 80yds with "low" magnification scopes. There was a discussion on the yellow forum I think a while back and the general consensus was that 9X was good up to 50yds at the most, when shooting small critters. Many people preferred 12X to 16X for 50yd shots and beyond. So you have achieved some very good shooting my friend. Congrats.
Diana 350 Mag .22
Hammerli 850 .22
Various Crosman CO2 & Pump
My opinion is that 7x and up is something you have to get used to. These were and always will be rested shots. But there is a trick. You really have to have a scope with glass clear enough for Your eyes. My Leapers are all hand picked at B&B Supply. Gary and I have gone through many scopes before we'll settle on one.
Here's my usual set up; I'm at a farm. There are outbuildings all around me. I could set up a lot of different ways at a lot of different angles. But when it comes to Pigeons, its a one shot deal. One drops and the others all take off. So I really have to make that one shot count. They are the most skittish birds. I also cull striped gophers from the fields in the spring time before the corn and beans are much more than several inches off the ground. Blackbirds can be as close as twenty yards and as far as I'm willing to shoot. Sparrows, hard as they are, are usually taken anywhere from thirty to forty five yards, but my R11 is marked off to one hundred yards. So I know where those pellets are going per each mildot. Plus that's a high setting of 15 power. There is an area where I can pull them down which measures 54 yards to my spot. But the 88 yard shot was one of those planets in alignment deals. The guy who held my gun and took that shot treats it as though I was the one who pulled the trigger! But I'll tell you that on five power three dots down equals ninety yards with the Bushy on the R11. Clear glass matters. I've only bought glass online once. A great experience but glass is something I think you really need to look through before you buy. And it takes a lot of rehearsal to be prepared to take those kinds of shots with any consistancy. Even if its just shooting cans.
You have to be able to repeat getting the exact same point of aim every time. Then you need to have a trigger which doesn't foul your shot. Most importantly you gotta have damn near perfect follow through. This is why I spend so much time shooting the Diana 75. Repeatable hold, trigger, follow through.
You can try this and see if it doesn't work better for you: Instead of zeroing your poa right under the crosshairs, work to get the point as tightly into the corner of the intersect of the two lines as possible. That way you're sort of "cornering" the thing you're aiming at where you can still see it.
Put a can out at thirty yards and shoot it. Without readjusting your scope move it to forty yards. Then fifty. Try this at 5 power to begin with and other than the can getting really small, you'll see that you can still aim at the can and hit it easily. Move the can back until you can't hit it regularly anymore and then up the power one setting. See how it looks then and shoot it.
I think you know all this, but the opportunity that you gave me seemed as good a time to say it as any. I would have brought up the discussion soon anyway but Herb was reading my thoughts. Again.
another way at looking at this issue of shooting beyond 50 yrds. is the following
with the 460 in .22 I can shoot open sights at 40 yrds and get within 2", that is un-asisted eyeball magnification. then it is possible to add 20 more yrds. with the help of a 3 x 9 scope
at 20 - 25 yrds. I use 3 x 12 x 40 and can do .50 CTC. which is half the distance with my 48. it all depends on the rifle, the scope is an added help to a trained shooter
your example of shooting the can and moving it is a perfect exercise to train the shooter into long yard plinking. I like the concept of adjusting your eyesight to the scope adding distance, have to try it someday
warren
and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"
Re: How many of you have "quick killed" pests/game....
February 1 2008, 4:37 AM
I shoot a M34 .177 with a Bushnell Sportsman 3-9x32. Most of my hunting's been done at 20-30 yards, but I've taken snowshoe hare out to about 55 yds, and crow at up to 45 yds.
Spent some time plinkin' cans this past weekend, and found we were reliable off-hand to 55 yards (once we were settled in), and rested we were good for about 70. No milldots or anything, so estimating holdover starts to get harder beyond 70yds, where it's almost over 6".
Squirrel arent' safe inside 40 yards, pidgeon's about 50 yds.
Most of my kills with this rifle are quick, better than 80%. The rest require a followup shot, but very few are able to move much after the first. Just ending the twitching quicker, really. I've only had one get away wounded in the last year, a crow. I really don't think he made it far, just out of the property. Felt crappy, aimed better next time.
Dave wrote:
<I do not trust myself. I do not do it any more! Period!>
Exemplary of a man of principle! As I get older, shakier and my eyes worsen I too have found myself taking fewer low-percentage shots. It is the only just thing I can do short of tolerating the pest.
Harv wrote:
<BSA Supersport .22 Bushnell Sportview 3-9. Can't find the scope presently because I'm doing trigger work but the scope is a very early version Sportview.>
I've been re-sighting a lot of things recently and have decided I can no longer tolerate the trigger on my SuperSport. So keep me informed by post if you make any progress. Might save me a few oops when it reaches the top of 'the list'.
Harry wrote:
< It's interesting that most of your rifles have a 9X max. magnification and you have achieved shots well beyond 50yds.---- the general consensus was that 9X was good up to 50yds at the most>
Let's shine a little light of perspective on that statement. Referring once again to Carlos Hathcocks' sniping during his 1st tour of duty in '67 in Viet Nam (since I'm reading the book and details are yet fresh in my mind) it is highly illustrative to consider that the vast majority of his long-range shots were made with a Model 70 Winchester in 30-06 topped with an 8 power Unertl target scope, a scope that would be considered unacceptably primitive by modern standards. Today it wouldn't even be thought viable for a $20 tent-sale Chinese underlever because of light-gathering deficiencies and the fact that it had to be returned to battery between shots.
If this doesn't shine a light of truth on the fact that the prime factor of accuracy is the shooter rather than the optical gear I can't imagine what would. FWIW, the scope on the Remington 700 used during his injury shortened 2nd tour was a 3-9 'hunting scope'. Not even close to the quality we have available today even in the less expensive imports. In short no amount of rhetoric and debate concerning scopes will ever supplant learning how to shoot what you have!
Harv wrote:
<Try this at 5 power to begin with and other than the can getting really small, you'll see that you can still aim at the can and hit it easily.>
Good points Harv! And by extension it brings us full-circle to the "Beware the one gun man" theory of shooting. We're virtually all dilettantes on this bus! I'm fully as guilty as the next too! Illustrative of that fact is that my 'deadliest gun' is the one I've been shooting the longest--a much-massaged Crosman 1400. (that is currently hors-de-combat and must be revived as soon as temps in the shop rise above deep-freeze levels) To fine it down I think we all need to honestly answer the question: "Am I trying to become a better marksman or do I just want to experience as many different guns as possible in the hope that I will discover a 'magic' gun that makes me invincible"? Frankly, all of us are too old to place faith in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and magic. Tom @ Buzzard Bluff
Its nice to enjoy so many different airguns. Now that I've had that opportunity I've found myself in a new phase. One I felt coming on for a long while now.
Although I get to shoot a lot, its impossible to become much better than average with too many rifles.
There are guys I know who've had the same deer hunting rifles since the first time they entered the woods with their fathers, uncles and cousins. These are firearms which quite possibly don't have five hundred rounds through them in the last thirty years. Wiped clean more often than fired. The ammo boxes are ancient. Oftentimes given to them by another member of the family who knows he won't be finishing that box off before his time. Old rifles. The One Gun.
You hear the stories about these guys. There's one in every family. He's had the same .22 rimfire since anyone can remember. He doesn't want another although he could afford it. Its also been claimed that he can shoot that thing around corners. The man with one gun.
So here I sit. Lots of nice airguns are right behind me, neatly standing in a rack. Any one of them could qualify as The One Gun.
But not all of them.
There are a few of us who will shoot above average. The dedicated FT and ten meter shooters surpass even that, but they follow a very different path than a hunter slash pest eradicator like me. They choose to focus their shooting to very specific games, replete with specialized equipment you just wouldn't lug through the same fields and woods I traipse through. Still, they are the best shooters. Often times they might have more than just the One Gun but their dedication to shooting a partcular way really does merit using only one.
Its a didactic many of us seem to know, but we don't apply.
I think the realization of my conditions became more clear to me after I got the Diana 75 from my friend Vlad. Here was a whole new opportunity to shoot often and in comfort. Suddenly the world of ten meter match airguns had a new appeal. Its ultra accurate rifles glittering like jewels before me. I also heard a new mantra spoken by those who knew... You don't move up until the model you have is a hindrance to better scores. Most often that reason would be fit since you simply cannot outshoot a ten meter match rifle. Secondly, though you might ultimately benefit from the next model up the the ladder, you have to start the whole learning process over again. You don't just walk from one to the next, expecting instant success.
If this logic applied to the best air rifle and pistols in the world, it surely applied to the sporters.
And thus I sit. No longer interested in duplicating airguns. Oh sure, I'll make concessions, but not many. If I continue to shoot them in rotation for the culling outings like I did last year, I'll never improve with any of them. Since my targets, unlike Hathcock's are not all of the same size, much less body type, those will be my concessions. But those rifles will be plotted and set up to my liking.
This then is my goal: I will pick certain airguns from the cache. I will prepare them and set benchmarks based upon what I remember. Then I will work to maintain accuracy to those benchmarks and work to surpass them by improving my accuracy with those airguns. Some will be scoped and some will be open sight rifles. I need to draw that line in the sand and aim to cross it.
You can't compare centerfire high powered rifles with airguns!! I was talking about shooting a sparrow at >50yds and my 7/8" bullseye on the favorite paper I like to shoot. What do you think I have on my 30-06, 7mm Mag., 30-30, .270, .243 & others? A 3-9X32 scope! But I 've used those for quarry 50-100 times the size!
Lets compare apples to apples please..
Diana 350 Mag .22
Hammerli 850 .22
Various Crosman CO2 & Pump
The reason the ratio works is because a three hundred yard shot, a two hundred yard shot, even a hundred fifty yard shot is as difficult with a three by nine as a fifty yarder on airgun sized game.
I don't know what the exact ratio would be to size a one hundred fifty pound deer at X yards so that it would appear the same size as a squirrel at fifty. Or a rabbit at fifty.
The important thing to know is trajectory. Windage also but that's a lot harder to figure between the muzzle and the target. I wanted to speak of windage because its also important but mostly comes down to Kentucky style educated guesstimating in the field.
<Lets compare apples to apples please..>
"---the visual relationship between a target 3/4 inch in height (9 MM pistol cartridge)[at 35 yds.] would be the same as the 29 inch average between a sniper's scalp and belt buckle at 1336.6 yards! So, if you got 35 yards in your backyard you can shoot at the equivalent of an enemy sniper at better than a relative 1,000 yards plus>
of course one never knows absolutely 100 % for sure whether one
will get a "quick kill" or "clean miss" even shooting at pests/
game at 7 yds., 12 yds. and other shorter ranges. Stuff happens
even to the world class champion shooters - same with gymnasts,
acrobats, skaters, dancers, swimmers, boxers, etc. I often say
a master woodsman can die in the wild but if betting I'll put
my money on him every time over a tenderfoot or novice outdoor
survivalist or woodsman.
I'm not a sadist nor a 'softy' - I can handle the reality of
what goes with hunting/pesting without being a sicko or a cry
baby. Sometimes it's fun - the adventure, the challenge, the
test and sometimes just a chore that will get done whether I
like it or not.
My desire, my mission is to get a "quick kill" when shooting
at game/pests but if I don't get that I do my best to get the
job done soon enough. More often than not I succeed but sometimes
there is a wounded escape and other times a clean or unwounded
escape.
With some pests sometimes I can seem, appear kinda mean - heck
I've seen nice old ladies swat a horsefly and there it is wounded
on the ground and no one seems concerned or to care. Horsefly or
rat - they're both living creatures.
Big and/or kinda cute living creatures it seems many human creatures
have decided are more important or special. Call out the Navy to save
a trapped whale but who gives a crap about a rat caught in fence wire.
Very astute post! I often have the same feeling when fly fishing,
with the exception that instead of a clean kill I'm looking for
a clean release!
Unfortunately, sometimes it's not, and I have to decide whether to
kill a foul hooked, tongue, or gill hooked fish (in a catch-and-release
area) or release it to probably die.
Legalities aside,this is a hunter's dilemma. If your intent was NOT
to kill, but only scare, haze, or sting the tail of your quarry
and your shot actually wounded the quarry, what then!
I used to think I was a good enough shot to do this, but not anymore,
so now I either shoot to kill or shoot to miss by a definately adequate
margin, but your post is right on, sometimes it just doesn't work out
that way, and we have to accept that in any blood sport such as this.
Just hope that DFW isn't looking over your shoulder when you have to
make a decision like this. In your case, the initial decision was to
kill the quarry (legally), so it's much easier.
I think that many of us have faced the dilemma I described above and
have changed our attitudes as we grew older ( I used to be the typical
bloodthirsty teenager a long time ago).
But, yes, I would still kill the rat, rabbit, or squirrel that was
wounded in the above scenario or just run over by the side of the road
and suffering.
Oh, BTW, one man's pest is another man's ceiling, or something
like that. (didn't Paul Simon say that?)
Any more than that, and you've got to consider everything. Wind drift, ballistic coefficients, even temperature and humidity. With those long shot times, even the rotation of the earth comes into play. When I shoot that far with BB's I even take note of where the flat spot is so I can play the slice. Of course I would never attempt such a shot without my shooting underwear. I need the support it affords
"but I'll be needin' that gun, fer squirrels and such."
Disco underwear?? No my friend. I AM THE ONE that negotiated w/ Cros. for the hat we all wanted! Credit where due?? Those in "the know" understand the "Timster" negotiated THE HAT deal! (we all want a Disco hat??) You can get underwear from your wifes drawer!! Im still working on #7 die! Tom G., Paul Cap. & Den. Q. are all calling me! Cros. wont return our calls! Guess they dont need us anymore---- new DISCO!!!! Boy they are quick to forget!! Tim.
They can be a little touchie over there on the yellow can't they? I liked the three wedges thing.lol
Guns are for shooting ,forums are for fun.Keep it up guys.
Gary
on the Yellow forum seems to ban someone at least once a week, but it is a huge forum with thousands of posts/week. He needs to take it easy a little. Maybe he 's on a power trip? He was yelling at someone the other day because they said something negative about a vendor. Don't we all want to know good or bad things about Internet airgun vendors? Those guys in CT are all a little strange..
Diana 350 Mag .22
Hammerli 850 .22
Various Crosman CO2 & Pump
Airbethere/Herb? Sorry about your ban! Im shur Im only a click away myself! I love this site and the people here. Did you see post eylerer by that as% hol& to Dave?? Come on,,,, we can turn up the heat,,That guy was being aJERK!!! No I dont eat breakfast w/ Harry,Harve,Dave,& others I cant remember now (sorry) But we are all FRIENDS! We ALL love airguns & help each other when we can. You guys are the GREATEST! Thanks for having me!!Tim.
hehehe yeah there is me, Herb, Harv, Harold.. Just call us the "4 H's" to save you some typing since you only use 1 finger (which one btw? just kidding!) and we 'll know what you mean and if you 're ever in NY breakfast is on me.
A little bit of humor here and there goes a long way to create bonds between most of us. We are more "united" on this forum probably because this is a single airgun-brand dedicated forum unlike most others. I also think that the average age on this forum is higher than you will find in others which may have something to do with the harmonius environment we enjoy here.. most of the time
Now did someone mention a hat, underwear and a Disco(tek) all in one sentence? Brings back memories from the late 70's
Diana 350 Mag .22
Hammerli 850 .22
Various Crosman CO2 & Pump
