came out with a hundred dollar ($100) magnum (say 20 FPE) springer
I suspect a lot of guys would say BS or something like that. If a
USA airgun company comes out with a way lower cost or cheap priced
PCP I suspect few will say BS or something like that. I'd be one
of those few. Maybe if the USA company was Daisy more than a few
would say BS. Crosman - don't know why but a lot of guys act like
Crosman is their special lady or place of worship.
Like it or not Herb the truth is that Crosman has always been the innovator in American airgunning. With the sole exception of Sheridan Crosman led the way in intoducing new concepts, designs and manufacturing methods in the 'classic era'.
Starting in 1924 with the introduction of the swinging pump lever and progressing thru the intro of their new PCP they have always surpassed Benjamin, Daisy and Sheridan in offering new airguns built on innovative design concepts to the American airgunner. Benjamin stuck with a single design throughout most of the 20th century. Sheridan burst onto the scene immediately following WW2 with a design so elegant that it set everyone else on their ear and so expensive that it was a marketplace flop. They quickly had to scramble to make a design that they could actually sell, the Model 'C', and once that was accomplished they too joined Benjamin on the sidelines to rest on their laurels.
Daisy has always, justly, been associated with guns of little interest to airgunners past 14 years old.
While the vast majority, myself included, decry the takeover of Crosman by the beancounter mentality and the subsequent introduction of pot-metal and plastic in place of wood, brass and steel it is impossible to deny it as a business model. Who owns Benjamin and Sheridan these days?
I think the airgunning community can be justly credited with something of a revival at Crosman. Prior to our innovative modifications of Crosman products it was 'business as usual' at Crosman. But the past few years it has became evident that someone at Crosman was paying attention to our improvements on their basic designs. We now have many of the products first developed and offered as after-market items by the airgunning community rolling off of the Crosman production line. Design concepts by us have been adapted by Crosman for their production guns and a general improvement in quality and value has resulted in a better product. The introduction of new models more representative of what the airgunning public wants to buy makes it pretty obvious that Crosman is listening to the marketplace and has became far more reponsive to it than in the immediate past. In short we, the airgunning community, have had a highly beneficial effect on the Cosman business model. Better we should be patting each other on the back than heaping anathema on Crosmans' shoulders for past and present sins.
Or that's the view from the perspective here at the Bluff. Tom @ Buzzard Bluff
Tom,
Thank you for your words about Crosman's history and future. I think that air gunning is such a terrific sport, a sport that is quickly going to experience a new era! With land being encroached on, fewer hunting areas, etc will cause a swing to the air gun shooter. Hunting in my state is decreasing at a surprising level. Hunting license are down on average of 5% a year. I have talked to many hunters in the area, and they say there kids to not want to go with them anymore, like they did as kids. In order to hunt, I personally have to travel a long ways. Now with a air gun, I can take my son a half mile away to shoot a pellet gun. I love it when I watch the hunting channel on tv and see a Gamo commercial. Not because I love Gamo, but rather I love a company that is making Public awareness of this great sport.
I love it when I log on to the Crosman website and see that they have a program to group sale guns to organizations like the Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts etc, and that they are contributors that promote the sport. I love it when I log onto a Crosman forum and see so many young fellas taking a great inexpensive rifle and experimenting with so many mods etc. A great view of American ingenuity and future air gun tuners, and future engineers.
I also can see a new era in Crosman. I really do think that Crosman is paying attention. If the market does take off, Crosman will set themselves up as not only a innovator of air guns, but as a leader of a quality air gun, again at an affordable cost and made in America. I sincerely wish the people of Crosman all the luck in the world. I am very optimistic about Crosman's new innovations and therefore will be ordering a new "DISCOVERY" in the very near future.
Thank you for a very well said contribution to Crosman.
very well said with clear examples of the Crosman view of the present and their market vision of the future
they have a very big slice of the PCP market with a gun for $300 that is affordable to everyone also their replacement parts are cheap compared to other brands, that helps to.
I am not a PCP guy but will follow closely the Crosman Disco project and if it turns into a airgun of my liking then I will order an American made PCP, my first one
keep posting Tom, you open EYES with your writing
warren
and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"
IMO the Benji Disco will be like sooooo many Crosman guns - including
custom shop and LE guns - produced/manufactured the last several years
or so. Problems out of the box new - those not in the know will keep
sending them in for a fix or return them for a refund or sooner or
later use them for a door stop. Those in the know will tinker, tweak
and mod or send them in to the pro tinkerers/tuners/modders/fixers.
There are soooo many posts about problems with new out of the box
Benjamins, Sheridans, Crosman 2240s/50s/60s/1377s/etc. Same with
custom shop and LE guns.
The guys that like Crosman guns would hate 'em if they had to use
them and keep them bone stock/factory. The Crosman guns they love
are highly modified guns - not some piece of crap stock/factory gun.
The guys that want me to go away are the ones that cash in on making
trigger fixes, breeches/bolts, hot valves, etc. and/or doing the tuning,
modding,fixing. They love Crosman! LOL
The reason is that the guys who work on their Crosmans also have things like chronographs which tell them there are fluctuations in velocity/power. I know plenty of satisfied Crosman owners who thing their airguns are fine as they are. They don't bother with all the pressure guaging tools, they just take them out and shoot them.
I think you have three groups. Those who come on the internet to seek adivce and involve themselves with a larger airgunning community, those who work on their own airguns in relative anonymity, and those who get the gun, if it doesn't work, send it back to Crosman or a local Crosman repair center (like B&B Supply in Minneapolis) and get their airguns back satisfied.
I'll offer another example. I have the Diana 46. Its known by those who work on airguns that the hooded breech design more often than not, lets air past the seals. The average machinist or person seeking absolute consistancy would be less than thrilled with such a random pressure bleeding design. But the rifle is interesting and by gum it works. And its a pretty sweet shooter to boot. But you sort of have to consign yourself to the fact it is what it is. Either you have a good sealing 46 or you make it so. Or you stop worrying about the fiddly stuff and just enjoy the heck out of it. I choose the latter. I suppose people who recognize the 46 for what it is also see most Crosmans for what they are. Fantastic shorter range hunters and wonderful plinkers. You do what you can if you're so inclined or you just run pellet after pellet through them. Sometimes that weaker design lasts longer than one would expect. Take a look at Marcelo's posts about those classics he has. Check out the loading ports. Old designs, yes. Imperfect by today's standards, yes. But shoot one and its got that same flair the old Crosmans are famous for. They still work and they're accurate for what they were intended.
I think its great Crosman is doing new things. I think they'll be successful overall. They are platform rifles. They have the potential to be made into a gazillion variations but they also work as they were intended. Flaws? Sorry, nothing is perfect. We don't live in an age where individual guys are building and assembling these airguns with the same kind of pride and time to give proper attention to that pride, to each individual airgun. Its just an indicator of the times we live in. Crosman is doing as much as they can and still be profitable enough to be around in ten years to do it again.
I've been on the Crosman forums for a while now. Can't recall a lot of problems with their curent patform guns. Barrels can sometimes be so-so, but Crosman will always make it right.
Crosman was and still is the innovator. Their swing arm pump patent held Benjamin in check until it expired in the 40's. Up until then, the only pellet gun that could consistently put meat on the table, was the Crosman 101 series. Here's one from 1928-29 for those of you who aren't familiar with this model.
"but I'll be needin' that gun, fer squirrels and such."
<IMO the Benji Disco will be like sooooo many Crosman guns - including custom shop and LE guns - produced/manufactured the last several years or so. Problems out of the box new - those not in the know will keep sending them in for a fix or return them for a refund or sooner or later use them for a door stop. Those in the know will tinker, tweak and mod or send them in to the pros>
Let's flip that coin over and take a close look at the obverse. Even if the Discovery isn't perfect (and I hardly expect it to be!) the improvements made by those modders and pro tuners will continue to feed the Crosman developement program. The synergy, if maintained, should encourage Crosman to build ever better products in the future. In the overall picture I see that a a win/win deal for the general consumer.
<There are soooo many posts about problems with new out of the box
Benjamins, Sheridans, Crosman 2240s/50s/60s/1377s/etc. Same with
custom shop and LE guns.>
Were that true only of Crosman I would agree with you 100%, but the simple fact is that it's a reflection of modern business practices as dictated by the beancounters under the influence of shareholders demanding ever greater profit-margins. So if you would place blame then look to the American public who ARE the shareholders. Lest you think it is a problem unique to Crosman take a few moment to review Martys' thread immediately below about his problems with his new RWS 460 and the less than satisfactory response by Umarex. Delivering the least for the most is what the shareholders and CEOs demand and we see it reflected in virually every aspect of business in the current era. Share with us if you will your own last positive experience wherein you thought you recieved greater value than what you actually paid for a product.
<The guys that like Crosman guns would hate 'em if they had to use
them and keep them bone stock/factory. The Crosman guns they love
are highly modified guns - not some piece of crap stock/factory gun.>
I think the point has whistled past you like a ricochet. The reason so many enjoy the Crosmans is the possibilities inherent in the gun rather than any pre-existing perfection as delivered. A large percentage of airgunning boardmembers are inveterate dreamers and tinkerers. It is the aspect of the sport most enjoyed by that segment of the airgunning public and Crosmans' historical design model of building parts that can be continually recycled into 'new' guns by swapping parts falls in perfectly with those who enjoy that part of the hobby. In fact I'll be so bold as to declare that many would be unaccountably disappointed if they bought a perfect new gun that had no room for improvement. But their money swells Crosmans' coffers just as does the casual W-M customer who buys a disposable 760 for a youngster.
<The guys that want me to go away are the ones that cash in on making trigger fixes, breeches/bolts, hot valves, etc. and/or doing the tuning, modding,fixing. They love Crosman!>
Nah----we don't want you to go away Herb! Every hobby needs a few curmudgeons and nay-sayers to hold up a mirror to the rest to keep them awake. Historically I've fulfilled the curmudgeon duties but in this instance I'll gladly surrender the duty to you. You seem to enjoy it so much that I can't imagine anyone else doing it with more enthusiasm and devotion to duty. Enjoy! Tom
The guns I enjoy most are the ones I have to roll up my sleeves and get in under the hood. Out of the box good shooters usually don't get shot as much. I, like many others on these forums, likes to tinker, improve, restore, etc. It adds another dimension to the sport for me.
I enjoy reading your thoughtful responses. Keep up the good insights.
"but I'll be needin' that gun, fer squirrels and such."
two well knowledgable airgun GURUS taking sides againt a prophet of DOOM
does that make him RIGHT? or even an answer, sprare me the thought of it
regardless of what you 3 guys think, the DISCO will stand on it's merits againt past or present history and when the dust settles many people will buy or not regardless of your posts
let the gun speak for it self, it does not need your premature INPUT, good or bad, it is to soon to judge it
don't like the post, dont't read it or commemt on it
warren
PS: just trying to set two sides apart
and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"
Logging on to the Weihrach website, I notice they actually sell a "silencer" for their gun, which Crosman does not offer. (obviously). It really appears to be a real silencer and if you can receive it here in the US, it would be a very big factor in the decision making process. Tell us what you know! Can I really get that silencer? Does it work?
about Dianas, Weihrauchs, AAs, Theobens, etc. and I wasn't
all starry eyed and praising them.
When I post about being "fair and square", being a guy into
"airgun truth" it always soon brings out the "wonderful guys"
that want to bring me down and make me go away. The Wayne Trapps,
the Matt Parkers, the Russ Bests, etc. of the "airgun world".
