everyone has its way of staying in the groove with what they do, I like to tear holes in paper but sometimes it is just ARGH
just follow me in this one, first pellet at 20 yards right in the bull eye, second real close and the 3rd and 4th the same. you load the 5th aim and follow breathing techniques and trigger pull, correct all outside influences like wind and concentrate, you pull the trigger and get 1 inch off target
ARGH and more ARGH, how in blazes could this happen, check you pellet selection and scope, check the gun and check again. sometimes I wonder if I am going to get 1/2 inch CTC with 5 pellets. is it that difficult?
warren
PS: RWS 34 with CP doomed @ 20 yards, am I asking to MUCH and yes I sometimes get lucky
and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"
Gaylord is doing a artical on this beast known as POI change you might want to look at .I know i am watching it because it seems to happen all to often. Marvin
Warren, I'm a paper shooter too, except for the occasional groundhog. Air rifles are just that way unless you devote a lot of time to examining pellets, comparing pellets, and then sorting pellets. I've come to the conclusion that if I hit an acceptible pattern, and to me that means less than one inch at 20 to 50 yards I've got an acceptable gun. Target guns are strange animals. Accurate as all get out, but more tempermental than a young wife.They need constant stroking , absolute control, and a consistant hold, more needs than I am willing to devote to them when I compare them to my hunting Dianas. Not to say that there isn't a thrill to shooting an Olympic class rifle, ultimate accuracy, over and over to the point of nearly being boring, BUT, at a price. Heavy, low powered, and as I said before, tempermental. I'll take the occasional 1/4 inch miss with my field grade Dianas over the accuracy of the others.
Older is better
Must have to do with the tides, signs of the zodiac or something and is, possibly, related to the "yips" in golf. You see this plenty with rimfires. Same lot of carefully selected ammo and, yet, a shot outside the group. At least your fliers are on the end of the string. With smokepoles, it's many times the first shot from a cold barrel.
As mentioned, about all you can do is try making the pellets as uniform as possible through sorting by size and weight. I think that, if you don't mind spending a lot of time on it, you could probably get the batch sizes down to a few parameters for you particular gun, saving time sorting after they have been established.
I do know from experience and talking with others that a late flyer can be the result of starting to sweat about the group. Kind of like Murphy's Law. Just have to work on doing everything the same every time. I knew an internationally ranked trap and skeet shooter who coached a collegiate shotgun team. He would have them wear the exact same clothes and only handle their own gun - not even pick up another to examine it. As a result, his team was in the top five if not first ranked.
My hat is off to those shooting springers and getting great groups! I can't see how you can go through the cocking and reloading yet still manage to keep things that tight.
Spent some time the last week shooting paper myself. Found something weird last weekend. I'd spent saturday just plinking cans in the back yard. I'd done some paper shooting back there at 20 yds a few weeks previously, and was getting about 1" groups. So, I figgered that after this plinking session, it was time to shim my scope to get it closer to zero. Added 2 x 35mm negative to the rear ring.
Then, it was to the basement, and then the back yard for more sighting in! The back yard groups shocked me. Suddenly I was able to keep 5 shots well within a dime (covered, not just touching). The groups looked more like what I was seeing in the basement previously at 10 yds, so I was expecting spectacular single round holes, and the like. Needless to say, that didn't happen.
My groups at 10 m were double the size of my 20 m groups. Scope wasn't moving, but it turns out my head was. I adjusted my rest in the basement so I was more closely approximating my posture on the patio rest, and voila, clovers!
When I shoot groups, I have to be doubly careful about head position (non-AO scope). I also have to be careful about the pellets I load. I use CP HP's in .177, pretty much exclusively. Some are flashy (finned, if ya like), and a few are undersized, just dropping into the breach. Neither shoots straight. If they're finned, they go in the trash. If they're undersized, I either blow them off, or toss 'em if they'll pop out fo the breach easily.
Doing this has pretty much eliminated flyers. I'm not about to weigh each pellet, but each can have a cursory inspection as it's loaded.
The finned ones usually don't do that bad, hitting close to the group. The shrunken head fellows are often 3" off at just 10m....
on this issue is the selection of pellets' and I have to agree with it. why is it that 4 out of 5 are "right on" and the the 5th is a flyer, because I have to be more carefull with pellet selection
It is not the scope or the gun, it can't be the shooter since he got 4 good ones then by GOLLY it has to be the pellet. I have done it before, 5 out of 5 in a Dime sized area
paper shooting is a challenge at 20 yards with the 34 and even thou it is not tuned and not the best air gun for target it allows you to smile once in a while
warren
and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"
I don't know what the mechanical aspects of airguns are, but, if they are like firearms, the actual handling can have an effect on accuracy. Do you guys take a first shot to settle in your guns? Sometimes a gun that's been at rest will have a different internal alignment of parts after it has gone through a shot cycle. Top shooters attempt to eliminate every variable, including how they handle their guns. Is the gun held the same way every time it is cocked and loaded? Is the cocking stroke timed to be of the same duration, shot to shot? (Perhaps the speed of the compression stroke can cause changes in the amount of air drawn into the gun?) How long between shots? Will friction from rapid fire cause the internals to expand slightly? Is the gun held in the same place each time? (Some shooter use tape and other "helpers" to ensure that hand position is constant.) Try working up a ritual and see if that helps.
One thing immediately comes to mind on these last shot fliers and that is fatigue. Airguns aren't exactly light nor particularly well balanced. Maybe increasing the time between shots will allow for better muscle recovery. Have someone check you heart rate, too. Don't laugh, but there was a test of olympic shooters a while back and they found out that trigger pull was unconsciously linked to when the heart was at rest between beats or zero pulse.
I'll have to concur with Redfeather here on most of his points and see if I can't add a few things of value here.
First of all, we're not olympic grade shooters. We're avid shooters though. That means the first thing we need to look at are what should be the most obvious and basic. Us, then conditions.
If you want to shoot a consistant five shot group try shooting a seven shot group instead. The reason is most people take that last shot and put a lot more value into it than they should.
"I've got one last shot to make this group look good."
I just gotta do everything right and this group will look good."
Let's see, I pulled to the left but was on the right plane on the last one so I have to..." You all know how that thought is finished and you also all know what the result of that thinking did for the last fired shot in that group.
Each time you line up to the targt you should view it as a fresh target. No shots already on that piece of paper.
YOU are the reason the pellets didn't go where you wanted them to, not the rifle or the pellets themselves. Unless you're shooting on the level of a Harry Fuller concentrate on yourself first. When the time comes you can take a shot and you're good enough to know whether the fault was yours or the rifle's/equipment's Then and only then can you make the next move with any supposition of how to fix the real problem.
The other thing, and everyone misses this one, is that if you're shooting for groups outside its imperative to use flags. You absolutely have to guage the wind in order to determine anything. You can't shoot a group or two or ten and not wonder if the wind bagged a flyer on you. So if you don't use flags its a built in excuse lol. The wind got me. I think.
The closest I've come to shooting to my own realistic expectations is when I admit I'm the first cause, pellets are the second cause and the rifle the third cause.
I think the solution to your problem involves using wind flags and realizing that every time you move that rifle off the rest you're changing its position and more importantly you're changing your hold on that rifle. Seven shot groups.
Jason, I applaud you. There are a lot of people who will make claims or imply that a really great target grouping is the norm for them. For some it will be, but you'll also notice those aren't the folks who brag about it either.
What you've been shooting with your sole air rifle is right where I think you need to be for being new to this game. Wind, and a myriad of other variables make really incredible shooting rare. And it ought to be for the majority of us. A goal.
I think you did great! Also want to tell you I appreciate you posting the pics of your target. It take a heck of a long time with just one rifle to get those really tight groups. A lot of practice. Some get there quicker than others, but oh well. We're here to have fun.
And as Redfeather pointed out, wind plays havoc on outdoor groups. We so often forget that.
and will agree with the 7 shot group but to a point. I cannot say that 100% of the times it is the shooter, gun or pellets it is a combination of all of them.
in my shooting range, wind is not a big factor even thou I am in a semi enclosed area I am still outside but shooting parallel to my privacy fence that buffers the wind on a windy day
the target has a 1 inch bulls eye and the distance is 20 yrds. shooting in a supported position there are not many variables in this situation. before I start the session I check the screws, shoot 3 pellets first at another target to wake up the gun and do my adjustments
definitely zero in 2 or 3 times using this method, after I am satisfied I start the 5 pellet test, trust me I go through at least 3-5 other pieces of paper before I start tearing at the REAL one
what I have failed to do every time is pellet selection, just pick them from the tin without looking them over before shooting, so I think the shooting process has been shrinked to the right pellets, will be starting to be more selective in this area
warren
and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"
Warren, all I believe you'll do is find that the pellets are not the reason for the lack in hitting what you're aiming at.
Consistancy has to begin in total repeatability of hold and follow through. Then, whether its seems plausible or not at this point, wind is a definite factor and a big one. Without the flags you might get a group or two that seem satisfactory but duplicating them on a regular basis is going to be more difficult without the use of flags. I suspect that without flags its common to see groups open to half an inch in open shooting lanes outside. And its reasonable to accept those groups because of the lack of flags. Sure you could find plenty of those days where you could get some really nice groups but you'll get many more of them by applying and learning the use of flags.
Even Kentucky windage is an improvement over simply aiming at a target and hoping for the best when one believes everything else has been sorted out.
Try this: Put out two flags. One at the halfway point and the other at three quarters the way to the target. Both where you can see them through the scope. Without taking into account what the wind is doing to those two flags simply shoot for groups. Then try some where you notice one or both flags are reflecting what the wind (draft) is doing but keep shooting right for the point of impact. If you shoot where one or both flags are slightly moved by the wind you should see groups open a little even at twenty yards. If you do this and try to learn the flags chances are your groups should shrink after some work. Its a learning curve. Takes time and lots of practice. Because even in what seems to be utterly still air, if its outside chances are there will be drafts blowing across the line of sight.
"the target has a 1 inch bulls eye and the distance is 20 yrds. shooting in a supported position there are not many variables in this situation. before I start the session I check the screws, shoot 3 pellets first at another target to wake up the gun and do my adjustments"
A 1" bullseye? Pretty big for a scope at 20 yds!
The bullseyes I posted earlier are about 1/2". I'm too cheap to buy targets, just loose leaf and a sharpy for me. I've just started drawing hollow circles, about 1/2" od and 1/4" id. Helps me with the most important thing I've learned about shooting groups, besides all that hold and consistancy stuff:
Aim Small, Miss Small. I don't aim at the dot anymore. I aim at it's centre. I don't shoot at a squirrel's head, or for it's eye, but for the back corner of it's eye!
If you're using real bullseyes, with rings and such, you're probably doing that too. but if you're shooting a 1" black blob, you're gonna need to "aim smaller"...
Hope this helps some, but I've probably not added anything you didn't already know...
I use the ones that are "official 25 yard target", 3/4 of an inch 3 on the first panes to zero in and 25 more evenly numbered below. hard to visualise unless you see them
another one is the 1" totally black bulls eye, must have at least 25 different ones from funny Osama Bin Laden, Bowling ball siluettes to serious ones. download them for free and go to Kinko's and make 25 copies of each for .06
I am serious about paper targets a squirrel you shoot and miss and curse but paper is there in front of your face saying "YOU MISSED" or just giving you the need for a smile, paper does not lie
warren
and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"
OK, I'm ready to try flags, Harv, the question is what is the right
flag material?. We need something really light that the slightest zephyr
will move. Toilet paper just doesn't seem all that cool.
I am a long time pellet gun owner and have done my fair share of paper punching. I also have a model 34 (36 actually but same thing). There are a few things that I have found that helped but still groups were never up to what I felt was possible.
Recently I got a nice target .22 LR. Now to me there shouldn't be that much difference in what a pellet gun can do at 25 yards compared to a .22 LR at 50 yards. If anything I'd have thought the nod went to pellet guns as it certainly does at 10 meters. I find it quite easy to shoot 10 shot groups under 1" off the bench with my 40X but I can't claim to shoot 10 shoot 1/2" groups "easily" with my 36.
I have been looking into ways to improve the .22 LR. Since I am afraid of ruining my gun I have thought about trying ideas on the pellet gun first.
So fess up, has anyone glass bedded and/or pillar bedded a pellet gun? How about adding arrow shafts or aluminum blocks? Face it, the stocks aren't that strong and with all the cocking and two-way recoil it seems a no-brainer. But I haven't heard much. I wonder why?
Re: Now you guys are going to think I am really crazy
March 3 2008, 11:38 AM
Couple of things to start with.
First, I don't know if your 36 is broken in.smoothed out. I suspect it is so I'll just go ahead and make that an assumption (against my better judgement only because it sounds like you've had the 36 long enough/put a lot of pellets through it)
Second, airguns shoot under the speed of sound. Spring piston airguns are a jumpy lot to begin with and compounding that with their subsonic rate of speed projectiles, a shooter probably needs to compensate when shooting for groups. I would have to say groups ought to shrink after practicing and getting familiar with the use of flags on the shooting range. Otherwise its Kentucky windage for the really great instinctual shooters.
Your 36 is a hunting rifle. Your 40X really isn't. That's another difference I think needs to be taken into account loooong before one starts to look at bedding stocks. If you slowed the velocity of the 36 down, in essence detuned it, the 36 would judder less during the firing cycle. Prevailing thought would hint the end result should be tighter groups than it shot before. All other things being equal.
I really haven't seen many threads on glass bedding airguns. At least, not for springers. Bedding a firearm helps to keep the barrel/action wedded to the stock and cuts down on things like vibration. Springers have totally different harmonics. I would not be surprised if it's actually better to allow them to be more free recoiling.
Your post does point up some possible mods that may be adapted from rimfires. Since springers are so hold sensitive, maybe some experimentation in securing the receiver would be in order. For example, most target .22's have two screws fore and aft to attach the receiver and eliminate pivoting at a single point. Who's to say if the current mounting points on a lot of guns are designed less for accuracy and more for ease of manufacture? A second option might be to try a little shimming under the receiver. You can test this with business cards or pieces of credit cards. (Maybe a better use for the latter in today's economy.) A third trick is the use of a barrel tuner. (Not the same as an airgun tuner.) I don't see why an airgun's barrel is less prone to vibration that a .22's. A sliding type tuner may identify a barrel's "sweet spot".
If I ever get my act together and start shooting more indoors (too congested a neighborhood), I may try to check some of these options out.
I just got back from the range where I used open sights today and I tried something new to me but may be you guys have all ready figured it out.I over heard some one saying that he had to have a special set of glasses made to shoot with because there was a parralex issue with the curviture of his glasses and his shots were all over . I had been wearing my glasses to shoot open sights with but to day i took them of. My old eyes need those tri focal glasses with out lines . Anyway I shoot both my rifle and pistol and in both cases I had to re adjust my sights but once I did this my groups became smaller and more cosistant. The rear sight was blury to me but even with this issue my shooting was better this time and I will try this again just to see how it works out. Marvin
I've got Veralux graduated (no line) glasses and they change the focus continually as you sight up and down through them. (Of course, that's the idea behind them.) Not real conducive to shooting. I may have to get a single prescription pair, myself. (You can always shoot without glasses if you're using a scope.) It's heck growing old.
It's been a while since I've seen so many minds go to such great lengths to defeat a common demon!
I've tried several of the above mentioned "cures" too and it still seems that from 3 to4 go into a beautifull group and that stinkin 5'th has a mind of it's own. I plan to try most of the others and would like to interject one of my own cures. When benchresting, pay attention to the consistant placement of the forearm's hand and hold. I have noticed this little change effects the muzzle's wandering very much! Lay the gun across the palm or taco hold it. Ya gotta be consistant and I for one am definatelly NOT! I always catch myself holding the forearm different.
When hunting the one inch shot placement zone we all pretty much adhere to is normally manageable within 20-30 yards. With the power of today's air rifles even a slight deviation will still often produce a clean shot. However change the requirement to a piece of paper and we all feel like hell when we can't maintain a cloverleaf (or better).
I also suggest that we quit beating ourselves up for a 1 in 5 error and concentrate on the subject the other way around! I've threatened myself with doing this,take your last 100 shots and put them all through one piece of paper, then picture the fliers. Where did they all go? One general area or scattered about? If the flyers were scattered, we can blame bad pellets, If they are "mostly" consistant, then look at Y O U.
I'm going to try this test that I've been thinking about. Use a cardboard backing. mark the corners and tape multiple targets over the same spot on the cardboard and check just what and where the flyers went. Do 5 or 10 shot groups for each target, but make sure the replacements are placed exactlly where the last target was. Maybe we should do this multiple times??? It might give us some answers... The backing board should tell us some sort of tale?
I dunno fellas, that one flyer drives me nuts too!
you just explained what I have been trying to describe about the frustration of doing everything by the book and receiving that disappointing 5th flyer. I know when I pulled slightly to right or left and curse at myself for doing this. that is one pellet that I and only I did not send downrange the right way
but when that pellet tears the paper 1" below I curse at the damm pellet, there is no way I can blame the shooter
warren
and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"
Perfect description: "the frustration of the fifth pellet, a flyer !". Perhaps a trigger failure, too little concentration or a temperature matter of the air rifle ? I have done thousands of shots with the Match 75 but there is a certain moment that you say: "Hee, what am I doing wrong with every 20 shots 2 flyers ?" Is that the 30% Diana or the 70% the shooter Warren ? Nice topic, best regards from Johannis.
I shoot 20 yards you my dear friend are going for more than 100, there is a difference and I call it a BIG difference, you are going for 100 in turn I am at 20 and stationary by the way
How is your 48 model Jan?
warren
and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"
