A new guy that hasn't did any forum, websites, books, mags reading yet
sends in a springer he purchased new to recieve a basic pro tune. He
had shot it several hundred times before sending it to be tuned and
let's assume the gun has no issues, defects. He gets it back and posts:
"not bad it seems a bit smoother and easier to shoot."
A kinda new guy that has read into the forums, websites, etc. a bit
does the same as the new guy - sends his new yet shot several hundred
times and has no issues, defects, etc. springer in for a basic pro tune.
He gets it back and posts:
"OH GEEEEZZZUS! Man it's like night and day! I can't believe how much
better it feels and shoots!!! Jake Jacker (Frank daCow, Uncle Mack, etc.)
is GREAT!!! He's a super master tuner!!!!!!!"
A fella that has been around a few years and has really been reading,
studying, listening, paying attention and doing a lot of shooting and
tinkering decides to send a new gun to a pro tuner even though he could
do it himself. He's pretty busy, hurt his hand, whatever. He gets it back
and posts:
"not bad it seems a bit smoother and easier to shoot."
I think you've got it figured out, Herb. Aside from some rare cases in which a mechanical problem needs to be remedied (in which case it should be sent back to the source, anyway), I can't be convinced the "Pro" tuner adds any more value than a gun-greaser; which is therefore what they are. These are really, really simple machines, and there is not all that much that can be done to change their performance, one way or another. Possible exception: trigger work, beyond standard adjusting/lubrication.
There's a big difference in my opinion, between a spring greaser and a barrel cut/choke, buttoned piston, cut coils, top guide fabrication, trigger work etc. While it's not rocket science, some folks aren't equipped to do the latter. Not all guns need nor receive all of that, granted. But if you have one that does, it needs to get to someone who can perform the work.
"but I'll be needin' that gun, fer squirrels and such."
with the gun, etc. Sure there are some pro tuners that actually
do more on a basic tune than some others that "talk sh*t" but
aren't doing anymore than a 30 minute quickie. Also some offer
many more services and have the knowledge, skills and tools to
deliver the goods. Then there are those that do a darn good job
on "important airgun guys" guns and jack around on many of the
rest. Also there's the pro tuner that throws in a "Rip Van Winkle
Tune" even though the owner of the gun didn't ask for it.
There are some smiths/tuners I respect, admire but none that I
worship, none that I put high upon a pedestal.
Bill S wrote:
<There's a big difference in my opinion, between a spring greaser and a barrel cut/choke, buttoned piston, cut coils, top guide fabrication, trigger work etc. While it's not rocket science, some folks aren't equipped to do the latter.>
Herb wrote:
<Sure there are some pro tuners that actually do more on a basic tune than some others---Also some offer many more services and have the knowledge, skills and tools to deliver the goods.---There are some smiths/tuners I respect, admire but none that I worship-->
Like many 'simple' things a spring-piston airgun is far more complicated than it appears on the surface when one sets out to try to make them better. Balancing the interrelationship of springs, transfer ports, parts fit, tolerances, mass of moving parts and more esoteric considerations is understood by so few tuners and virtually no casual users that it's obvious that most who tune them can't be other than 'smoothers and greasers'.
I have been amused on my return to airgun fora after a lengthy hiatus to note more than one person who now has a splashy website advertising his 'expert' tuning services who just a couple of years prior was asking questions on boards that revealed him as the rawest of newcomers. This sport, more than any other in which I've ever been deeply involved, seems to generate an unusual amount of instant experts.
The few real experts that do tunes don't have to advertise. They have daunting waiting lists. As one who has done his own work for many years I have enormous respect for those few who can with great justification be thought of as expert, but I don't worship them as some seem to do.
There is a vast difference between what I think of as blueprinting and modifying to achieve efficiency not envisaged by the original designer. Anyone with reasonable mechanical aptitude can blueprint a gun within the limits imposed by manufacturing tolerances. There's often a wide difference between the design tolerances and the reality of how a gun emerges from the production line. Knocking off the rough edges and polishing where needed followed by the application of the proper lubricants in the right places and proper amounts can make a huge difference in how a gun is percieved as opposed to how it performed when it left the factory. The more cheaply made the gun was originally the more difference will be noted as the result of a good blueprinting effort. It is therefore relatively easy to acquire a good reputation quickly if ones work is limited to low-end Chinese and Spanish guns. Those tuners aren't the ones you want to entrust modification of your Weirauchs to however.
In short I'm at best a blueprinter as are the vast majority who bill themselves as tuners. Just one mans' opinion. Tom @ Buzzard Bluff
Very well stated, and I agree, and your analysis is superb.
I would like to address the following statement by you:
“I have been amused on my return to airgun fora after a lengthy hiatus to note more than one person who now has a splashy website advertising his 'expert' tuning services who just a couple of years prior was asking questions on boards that revealed him as the rawest of newcomers. This sport, more than any other in which I've ever been deeply involved, seems to generate an unusual amount of instant experts.”
I don’t know much about airgunning, but I have been tinkering with computers since their inception.
I drew some parallels in your descriptions of “expert" tuners. If someone rises from the rank of rookie to “expert” tuner in just a couple of years, you have to at least admire their self esteem and marketing skills.
Likewise there are some I admire in the computer industry, who back in the days of the BBS bulletin board systems (prior to the explosion of the Internet), were at best, mediocre shareware programmers. Now we see that several of these former shareware authors have ascended to the levels of CEO’s in huge and profitable antivirus corporations.
Don’t get me wrong. I am not defending anyone. I am just pointing out the fact that, less than astounding “mechanical” ability, does not necessarily translate as incompetence.
I can recall several work related experiences in my life wherein I have had the dubious pleasure of working for “bosses” I considered to be incompetent idiots. Then, as I matured, I reflected not only on who was working for whom, but why.
ctruth wrote:
<I don’t know much about airgunning, but I have been tinkering with computers since their inception.>
By Gosh! I see the possibility for bartering in our mutual future! I know a bit about airguns but I am the poster child for computer ignorance!
<I drew some parallels in your descriptions of “expert" tuners. If someone rises from the rank of rookie to “expert” tuner in just a couple of years, you have to at least admire their self esteem and marketing skills.>
No question at all concerning the latter two attributes! Neither of which translates as competence. To be utterly transparent I consider the emphasis on self esteem and entreprenuerial self-promotion above competence and responsibility as failures of both our educational thrust and societal standards.
<Don’t get me wrong. I am not defending anyone. I am just pointing out the fact that, less than astounding “mechanical” ability, does not necessarily translate as incompetence.>
Darn! I carefully avoided pointing out the obvious in my post-----I just may be a slow learner.
<I can recall several work related experiences in my life wherein I have had the dubious pleasure of working for “bosses” I considered to be incompetent idiots. Then, as I matured, I reflected not only on who was working for whom, but why.>
Touche'!
But the point that was likely obscured by my own verbosity is that there are a lot of 'tuners' out there in 'airgunland' that don't yet realize the depths of their own ignorance. It is so easy to achieve improvements in civilized behavior from lower end guns that it becomes equally easy to presume expertise that doesn't yet exist but becomes readily apparent when confronted by higher standards of design and execution. It is at that point that the tuner cannot deliver the exaggerated claims and produces only a dissatisfied consumer for his efforts.
STILL only one mans' opinion! Tom @ Buzzard Bluff
Wrote:
<No question at all concerning the latter two attributes! Neither of which translates as competence. To be utterly transparent I consider the emphasis on self esteem and entreprenuerial self-promotion above competence and responsibility as failures of both our educational thrust and societal standards>
Alas, I would agree, except I lost confidence in an ideal society years ago. Competence, responsibility, commitment, obligation and duty went the way of “An honest day’s work for an honest day’s pay”
Today, any business person who embraces those ideals above capitalism is not a business person at all, but a hobbyist. Which is ok…..as long as it is just in his/her “spare time”
And the “educational thrust” you mentioned is now based on the sound economical principles I just stated.
ctruth wrote:
< except I lost confidence in an ideal society years ago>
If we surrender our ideals then we've missed the entire point of striving for a standard of excellence as a society, a people and a form of government. All that is left at that point is 'situational ethics', a standard that I refuse to accept.
At my age I can do so with impunity. But a society that accepts situational ethics as a standard has converted a slippery slope into a ski-jump. Once committed the inevitable result is catastrophic. He who ignores the lessons of history has no perspective from which to view the future.
Once again---ONE mans' viewpoint. Tom @ Buzzard Bluff
ctruth wrote:
<I ‘m in the same boat. My fear is great that our children and their children are in for a truly dreadful future.>
The problem is that so few of us recognize that the boat is holed.
<Seems in the end capitalism is no better than the failed egalitarianism.>
I suspect the ultimate truth of the matter is that all systems eventually succumb to the basic nature of Man which appears to be immutable despite all the rhetoric and wishful thinking of the Utopian apologencia.
<This is truly “No country for old men”>
Nor for those capable of independent reason of any age. Harvey must be occupied or at work.
Best adjourn this discussion before Dave has to step in to prevent our philosophising disturbing those who are uncomfortable viewing reality. Tom
You guys really put some meat on the table in this discussion. I'll look for a point to interject if its of value but right now, I'll let this one keep on rolling.
Sorta put it to bed lest the Ostri (what the *&^% IS the plural of Ostrich anyway?) object and cause Dave problems, but if you have meat for the sandwich reopen the banquet!
Herb, you are in fact a Guru in this great sport. Isn't it time to just stop putting folks down because they are enthused about this sport and trying to learn? Why not teach them, as opposed to ridiculing them. So what that they go through a progression? Why NOT share you knowledge with them?
I have coached young runners for years and see the same thing. Same type of eager enthusiasms, etc. Herb, you are a master, start acting like one. Teach them and guys like me. This is not about you, nor an insult to your knowledge, it is about learning. The gift of the teacher is the best of all. Your friend Bill, has been softly telling you this.
Herb, I coach running for all age groups. They all go through the same stupid progressions. BUT THEY ARE THE SAME PROGRESSIONS I WENT THROUGH! Maybe in a different level. When I was a competitive runner I resented a JOGGER? How stupid of Me! Time is short Herb. Help someone learn about air guns. Use your "KNOWLEDGE" Herb! to help!
I think I've hung around the forums long enough to know the difference
March 4 2008, 9:44 PM
There's a couple of tuners with good reps and I think the work they do is worth the money. It's also best to see who specializes in one or two guns and then who's trying to be a Jack of all trades.
Most people, and I am one of them, who are relatively new to springers, don't know what a well-tuned gun feels like because they haven't enough experience. And these folks are coming, primarily, from the low end of the airgun spectrum. You don't see a lot of tuning posts about HW77's, for example. Lots on 34's, Chinese copies, Gamo's and the like. Many of these tunes are to correct for rough machining and such. When those guns come back I imagine in many cases it's like day and night. Plus, like in rimfires, there's always those out there determined to turn a pig's ear into a silk purse. (Not knocking the above guns, but they were never intended to be equal in design and QC to much higher priced guns.)
Over on the Yellow Forum someone recently asked about starting a section with certified tuners. Nearly every response was don't. To start with, there's no real criteria, as most opinions are subjective.
If you want to have an eye-opener, check out the blog that JM runs on his site. He was talking about certain "big time" tuners who advertise his springs and kits, but only buy a few each year. He even mentioned one who uses OEM springs. JM's beef is that disappointed owners then place the blame on his parts. Again, until you can handle a well-tuned gun, you can't tell how good your tune was.
I think having an airgun tuned is like getting your car's transmission serviced or rebuilt. It all comes down to the guy doing the work.
I think that this may have a lot to do with the quality of the gun and the experience of the shooter. A novice shooter with a new gun may experience no significant change after a basic tune. Normal; no experience to base the change on, gun shoots kind'a the same. A moderately informed shooter with little trigger time will experience a great amount of change; it's the 'placebo effect', they desire a great amount of change, and experience it because they have spent the money for it. An experienced shooter will decide weither his gun has changed in a way that he approves of, or dislikes. That is the zone where 'tuners' make their trade. Does it shoot better? That, is all that matters, experienced or novice shooter. I'll be the first to admit, I have never sent one of my guns to an airgun 'tuner', BUT, I buy them from a quality airgun store here in Ohio. I don't know if he's a 'tuner' but he's sold me a lot of great guns. Good Airgunsmiths are hard to find. The guy I deal with is a true resource, by his recollection more than 50 years in the business, and I believe him. If I knew half of what he knows I'd be ...
While searching on tuning I came across this from JG Air
March 5 2008, 7:20 AM
It's really a good definition of what tuning is about:
"Tuning an airgun does not necessarily increase the velocity unless there are issues such as a broken or fatigued spring, a damaged seal, or a rough chamber wall, out of round compression chamber, etcetera. The purpose of tuning is to maximize the efficiency of the gun, make it a smoother, more accurate, with more consistency, less spring vibration and twang, and reduced recoil, therefore, more enjoyable to shoot.
Lower end guns, especially in the Chinese and Russian air rifles using synthetic seals, have seal damage right from the factory assembly process. Often the buyer will never know, even while shooting it, unless it is extremely bad, has a Chronograph, and experiences some damage, like breaking a mainspring. Little or incorrect lubrication, poorly fitting and low quality mainspring, poor quality control during manufacture and assembly, rough components, causes excessive vibration, spring twang, excess spring torque, inconsistency, lose of power, inaccuracy. We have even seen mainsprings on new guns coming in from Turkey, China, and other countries that do not have the end coils finished. Tuning usually corrects most of these problems and improving the trigger pull can add a lot towards improving accuracy.
Spring twang or vibration and cocking roughness can be caused by roughly finished metal on the interior parts caused by poor machining and stamping. Cocking a spring piston air rifle causes the mail spring to increase in diameter and twist, and if the spring guides are poor fitting allows the main spring to cant or bend. All of which rob power when the gun is fired. When a spring piston air rifle is fired there is a double recoil. As the piston moves forward in the compression chamber it bounces rearward off the compressed air ahead of it before the pellet starts to move, (that is why pellet skirts are larger in diameter then the pellet head, to hold the pellet in the chamber long enough to allow the pressure to build up at this point). At this time the spring free floats, in other words, both ends are not touching either end of the compression tube or inside of the piston. The spring quickly comes to rest on both ends, unwinding and causing the gun to twist to the right or left depending on which way the spring is wound. Then when the piston hits the bottom of the cylinder, it drives the gun forward. According to the laws of physics, for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. A tune helps reduce much of this violent reaction and makes the gun more controllable. The above firing cycle is why we do not work on gas ram airguns. The piston hits the end of the compression chamber with out bouncing back off a cushion of compressed air and can cause stress cracks in the compression chamber or damage to the compression tube in the rear where everything is secured together.
Tuning reduces spring vibration or twang (by polishing the ends of the spring, adding thrust washers, polishing the spring guide). Tuning can also increase power, and makes for a smoother cocking operation. In addition, there is a softer more predictable trigger pull if a trigger tune is done. Another important result of a good tune is far less recoil, less twist (torque), more consistent velocity, and smaller shot groups.
Seals are soft and considered wear items and are expected to wear, by design, they are intended to wear and protect the metal parts, similar to break pads on a car wearing instead of the rotors. We use nothing but the best seals and spring available for a given gun.
Proper lubrication is of the utmost importance. How it is lubricated, at what points, and what lubricant is used makes a tremendous difference how your gun behaves, its accuracy, it’s consistency, seal and main spring life. It’s important to know that there are several lubricants used in airguns for different purposes in different locations and they all have specific purposes. We use an assortment of proper modern lubricants designed specifically for airguns.
Tuning should resolve many issues with a new or used air rifle and result in owning a more enjoyable air rifle. Please keep in mind, no two guns are the same coming off the assembly line, or tuned by the same tuner, have the same power, consistency, and accuracy. Secondly, power should not be the primary concern, although important. If a tuned gun and turns out extra strong, that’s fine as long as it fires smoothly and is consistently."
No plug, but I think it kind of sums up what many people are looking for in a general tune. This is not intended to include speciatly or high-performance tunes.
Hey Mr Tom, Im an 'old buzzard" too (48 3/4,s) LOL.. Man you got a gift. Oh yea,, I remember now, its called edjucation!! I respect you tremendously my friend,PLEASE stay here! Ill just keep "slinging wood chips" & learn a little more each day from the likes of people like you here concerning my writing & spelling abilitys! Tim.
I was going to keep my big mouth shut,but of course I cant! I have never had the privelege of owning, or even shooting a springer tuned by one of the true masters the likes of M.Z.. ( A few other master tuners Im shure). But I can say this from first hand exp. Following Tom Gaylords advice, I have tuned a few cheap "china clunkers". The differance was HUGE! A de-bur & lube tune makes a big differance in smooth shooting and accuracy. I must admit, the "Charlie Da Tuna" (Bob Warner) trigger,(GRT111) helped accuracy as well. Im shure Im "rufflin some feathers" on this one. Tunes work!! My 54 on the other hand, like Johannis said,,no need to tune! (enter BIG smiley face!!). Tim.
Tim wrote:
<Hey Mr Tom, Im an 'old buzzard" too (48 3/4,s) LOL.. Man you got a gift. Oh yea,, I remember now, its called edjucation!! I respect you tremendously my friend,PLEASE stay here! Ill just keep "slinging wood chips" & learn a little more each day from the likes of people like you here concerning my writing & spelling abilitys!>
Thanks Tim, but lest I sail under false colors I must tell you that I don't even possess a high school diploma. But I did discover that a diploma isn't a license to learn. We're quite free to continue to learn as much as we wish. The only license required is a hungry mind and from reading your posts I think you have that in spades. Go for it my friend! Tom
From one 'old buzzard" to another,Thanks! Seems like on a pretty consistant basis someone from here makes my day. Today it was you Mr Tom. Remember as I posted before here,kind words go a LONG way towards changing peoples lives. I thank you my friend,you are too kind.Tim.
Tim, I stand just where I did when I posted before about my Marcelo tuned 34. First, let me make it very clear, that I don not believe for a minute that you have to have graduated from Air Gun Greatness school with a Doctorate in SpringGunology to know a craftsman when you see you. I believe this to be true regardless of the particular craft. I watched this guy work for about 3 hours. If some of these guys think they can do what he does to a gun, then my hat is off to them. I personally could never have that type of skill if I practiced for a century. Now here are the facts (mo) about my tuned 34.
1) The gun is NOT EVEN CLOSE to being the same gun before the tune.
2) On a scale of 1 to 10 accuracy has improved 10+
5) If you think the 34 is fun to shoot, you should try my Marcelo tuned HW 30.
Now the gun is compared by Marcelo as firing like the much adorned R7. Well if this is what a stock R7 shoots like, then I would urge anyone to get one. I would have never bought a 34.
You be the judge weather a person has a God giving skill, or if you choose to believe that anyone can do the same thing, then that is your opinion. The fact is, my tuned MZ 34 and HW30 will never be sold or traded as long as I am alive.
---is proof that some of the very best do it for the love they have for the guns. Some of the very best tuners are 'amatuers'. Marcelo is one of them. Tom
---may just be the best in the business! Certainly one of the top three. He is one of those very few who actually understands the 'simple' spring gun and has the requisite imagination and skills to improve them to levels never imagined by the original designer and producer. Tom
Herb---that last shot whistled over my head like a ricochet. I missed the point entirely. Adjust your POA and try again---I can be a bit thick at times. Tom
There are some fella's that go about sprouting how much knowledge that they have and know. There there are fella's that are gifted with and a certain Power of inner peace in the knowledge that they know there craft and there own humility as well. I will never forget watching the craftsman work, but I also will never forget his eagerness in teaching me about springers. The fact that I am a rookie only encouraged him more. I am very much grateful for the experience in guns and in life.
are you raising the bar on a tune airgun against and untuned one by WHO tunes it? a professional tune or a DIY TUNE ARE DIFFERENT but just because Mickey Mouse lives in Orlando Fl does not make ORLANDO THE CENTER OF THE WORLD (sorry for all Cap's)
will a pro that tunes your gun achieve 100$ of the maximun expectancy of the gun? againt the shade tree tuner. it depends on the opinion of the owner and not the forum's opinion
If I spend $200.00 on a tune and are satisfied, WHO tells me I overpaid, think about saying my tuner makes my gun superior to yours, NOT, it is a matter of believing in your gun and not on the opinion of someone that has not pulled the trigger in your tuned airgun
Are you happy with the tune by XYZ then let it rest, it is your gun, your $$ and your decision, names do not matter, IMHO
warren
PS: Have anti flame clothing on
and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"
Hey Warren, Thats a wrap. Whoever you feel most comfortable with petaining to entrustment of one of your beloved airguns,,so be it!We all make honest mistakes, I am for one too "trusting of others" Sometimes you win,,sometimes you loose. Im still learning,,There are a handfull of "tuners" out there that can be counted on to reliably ,,, "Get er Done"!! In the meantime,Im learning more every day! Tunes,, Ill stick by what I said above,, backyard "redneck" or done by a profesional it makes a Big differance! It aint rocket science,, a debur, polish, & proper lube tune is well within the skill levels of alot of the guys I see here. A tune does make a differance regarding accuracy of "most" springers. Forget a tune for power,Tune to hit your target!! Tunes work. Tim.
