Thursday was nice enough to shoot outside after work so,I sighted in my 460 with the Center Point scope.I,m useing 14.3 CP,s in it right now because it,s still in the breakin stage and I have a good supply of them.
Today the heavy rain came again in the afternoon so I got off work early.I grabbed the 460 and my Pro Sport and headed for the shooting range.I wanted to try a new pellet in the PS and just shoot the 460 alot to move along through the breakin period.Even though I was,nt going to I tested some other pellets in the 460 also.I tried Beeman FTS in it and it immediately grouped them well at thirty yards.I fired a group beside the target first so the barrel could get itself adjusted.It held a tight 1/4 inch group and when I moved to the target it fired another tight five shot group.Then something strange happened,my next group opened up to about two inches and moved to the left.Next I tried JSB exacts express 14.3,s.The same exact thing happened,at around the twentyith shot my group opened up.I went back to CP,s and bingo! right back on the money.I fired about another 150 shots with CP,s just to be sure.I,d get a flyer once in awhile but for the most part it did well.Two weeks ago I had my trusty Leapers scope mounted on the 460 and my groups went from great to terrible and I thought my scope went bad.I was ready to send the scope back for repairs but now I,ll have to check it out first.
Heres my opinion on whats happening here,I may be wrong but,I think at 870fps the soft lead pellets are leaveing trails of lead in the barrel and after X amount of shots the barrel becomes fouled.CP,s are a very hard compound and therefore work better.
Anyhow heres two of my targets from today.This was my 460 off a bench,Center Point4-16x44 scope on Beeman adjustable one peice mount.Unsorted CP,s indoors at twenty and thirty yards.The squares are one inch on the target.Heres at twenty yards,six shots
Next is at thirty yards,six shots
bet you that stragler @ 20 yards pissed you of. that's exactly what I get with my 34 but 5 pellets groups and of course 1 dam flyer @ 20 yards
that 30 yards looks even better, more distance
noticed your flyer @ 20 was down and @ 30 it was up, did you notice if it was 1st middle or last pellet, I know I am getting technical here maybe will start studying those bastard flyers and be an expert at something LOL.
warren
PS: John; be on the lookout for the brown truck (UPS) my 460 is heading up north
and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"
1.- That your 30 yard group is roughly the same size as your 20 yard groups leads me to believe that your scope's paralax is playing games on you. Try checking it not only as focus of the scope's image (If your scope has AO), but also keeping the rifle steady and moving your eye from side to side and up and down and watching what the aimpoint does. Do it at both distances and you'll find out if the paralax of the scope is to blame or not.
2.- 870 fps is not usually leading velocity. You can easily check that out using Kleen-bore lead-out patches. Shoot the JSB's and the FTS's and clean between each batch see how dirty the barrel becomes with different pellets. IF it is leading and IF the gun shoots the FTS's better or the JSB's better until it leads, then JB's bore past is in order, or some fire-lapping should solve the leading issue.
3.- Try lubing your pellets with Pledge or other dry-silicone based wax: Pledge has worked wonderfully for me in most barrels, I have only seen ONE barrel that preferred a different lubricant, and that is among more than 100 barrels tested in different guns from different manufacturers. It is not a sure bet, but probabilities are better than even, much better.
Hector, I believe you are right as far as I am concerned. I tried what you said and my groups did improve. Even with a goofed up 460. If you have been reading the Martin/John Avery post you know that the 460s we have may be substandard. My groups did improve though adjusting my eye angle for posibility of parallax on my RWS 3X9X44 IR scope.
I got to shoot my 460 too! A balmy 40 degrees and sunny yesterday. These are my best groups so far at 40 and 60 yds. Wind was variable 0 to 10 mph, mostly downrange:
HAD to be the wind made those two flyers!
Maybe I'm starting to get the hang of these springers.
useing and what scope?Pretty impressive at sixty yards.I,m still waiting for my Bushnell Legend to be returned and was useing A $65.00 Center Point scope from Wally World.Hopefully my groups will clean up a little with the Legend.
Sorry targets weren't very well annotated, I was using Premiers, which grouped better than Superdomes or even JSB 15.8 exacts. Scope same as yours, CP 3-9X40AO. I was only holding 1.5 inch high and left on the 60 yd target with 17 yd zero, (aim point was just above where the 60 y annotation is)....these numbers only seem to work in the ballistic program when I use something ridiculous like .500 for the BC! Must be the thin air up here..
I shoot a 34 in .177. Been shootin paper in the basement and the back yard, and I've put about 2000 rounds thru my gun, all CP HP's, it like's em!
The last week, I've been having trouble grouping as well as I previously had. I re-mounted my scope, paid more attention to hold, head position, etc, etc.... To no avail. My gun, previously more accurate than I was, was seeming to be shooting poorly! I was getting worried.
I had tried running a patch thru the bore, and it came out full of lead chips a few weeks previously. Sighting down the bore revealed an area about 3" from the breach that was covered in lead. I cleaned it then, and wehn I checked, the leaded area was leaded again. After cleaning it had been clean and smooth.
Friday I noticed Hector recommending Pledge to lube pellets. I spread about 250 pellets on a folded paper towel and gave 'em a light spray. Rolled 'em around till they were well, lightly covered. Gave them a bit of time to dry.
I shot a few. The first half dozen were mostly dry, but caused some light dieseling (smoke was evident inthe bore, but the firing cycle was not noticibly different. Checking the bore again, it seemed much cleaner.
I shot some groups.
On Thursday and Friday, I'd shot some 20m groups, and had trouble keeping them under an inch. Rested. Now, with 20 or so waxed shots done, I tried again. The first group (cold rifle) was about 5/8". the second was 3/8". A group at 10m in my basement was only 4mm ctc for 5 shots.
If you're having random accuracy problems with a 900fps+ springer, give it a try! Warren, if you don't lube your pellets, this may help your fliers? I know I get far fewer now, and even those loose headed pellets don't seem to fly as badly (off by an inch now, 2" or more before!).
Worth a try, and everyone has a can at home, right?
First you need to wash the pellets in dishwashing liquid, then you bake them in a toaster for 4 minutes, then you spray them (while hot in the can where you baked them), then you swish them and get them all done and covered, and then you re-bake them again for another 2 minutes. The pellets should be all even and clean, I have experimented no dieseling, only smooth and "suave" shooting.
I cannot explain it, but I am sure there is some sort of thermal process that happens when you spray hot pellets with Pledge, as the accuracy potential of guns improves dramatically with pellets where this process has been followed are used.
It only takes about 10 minutes to do 500 pellets, if you get a largeish shallow can, so it is really no hassle. You can also use a heat gun or an old hairdryer to heat and dry the pellets; I used a hairdryer for years, but now find it easier and faster to use a toaster oven.
Could you tell us the temperature setting of the toaster oven you used?
Perhaps it sounds like black magic, but I'm ready to try anything that costs nothing but time! I tried the Pledge trick today, and at first I thought it was going to work, but when I checked the groups against previous days there was not much difference, maybe 10%.
I did not wash them first, but just sprayed Pledge on two paper towels and rubbed them between the towels. Those towels got dirty fast!
According to the chrony, the velocity spread definitely improved, but the groups only improved marginally. Today was ideal, with 50 F temperatures and almost no wind at 5700 feet, shooting at 30, 50, and 60 yards, bench rested. Best 5 shot group with my 460 Mag at 60 yds was 1.94 inches, with JSB 15.8 grains, weighed, Pledged, and inspected. Best previous group at 60 yds with unweighed and un-Pledged pellets was 2.5 inches, but on a day with more wind, so it's not a sure thing. Sorted and Pledged CP's were very close at 2.125 inches.
I just KNOW this gun can do a little better! I'd get three shots in half that spread then two flyers. If I could get 1 inch groups at 60 yds with a 460 Mag in dead calm conditions I'd be one happy camper!
That's PCP numbers!
SO, I'm ready to try baking the pellets...how about 275 degrees?
BTW, I spent some time this winter going back years on the forums and I'm glad you have re-surfaced! You have a tremendous amount of knowledge bewteen your ears!
I did clean my pellets first, just didn't do the baking thing. Rinsed them with coleman fuel, then methanol, which dries quickly.
I'd guess that the head just helps drive off the carrier liquids from the wax faster. The shots I had that dieselled (very lightly) were done before the wax was completely dry. 10 minutes later, there was no diesel.
Dave,
I don't know how much this will improve the accuracy of a gun that is NOT already leading the bore. Mine was, I could see it just looking into the breach. It may, however, reduce the future need for barrel cleaning!
I am sure that crosman has a dedicated worker at the plant that collects the REAL flyers', he just waits until I and only I order pellets and dumps the whole of those "bastard" pellets in my boxes
that's my ex[lanation for my flyers' LOL
warren
and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"
