Martin’s 460 – Some Real-world Thoughts
WOW….I go on a 2 day vacation for some camping and shooting and when I get back there is rioting in the streets! -LOL-
First, I’ll talk about Martin’s problem and then I’ll pop my top about Umerex…
BTW…Beeman doesn’t really have a comparable gun to match the 460 if it is an under lever that is being sought ….Beeman/Weirauch are designed around smoothness, not extreme power…to “power tune” one so as to get what I call “true magnum power” will result in them being a “harsh shooting gun”…and remember, we are talking about spring guns, NOT “gas ram” powered rifles like the Beeman RX2 or Weirauch HW90…OK, so…
I haven’t been following this thread real close but I have gone back and tried to read about Martin’s problem since it was first mentioned. For those of you regulars here, for those who have read the FEW posts that I have left on this board, you know that I try not to speak unless I have something worth-wile to say that is backed up by solid info and provable fact….I am ready to talk about Martin’s problem after going through my records from my “tuning days” (d-a-z-e !!) and finding some archived pictures from a tune on a 350Mag that I did a couple of years back…it had the EXACT SAME problem.
I agree with John Avery (Login 4950cycle)….together, we MAY be wrong, but I honestly do not believe so…hard to say when I have not examined the gun myself, but I am confident ENOUGH to speak out. As a refresher, John Avery speculated that the compression tube may be out of specification (warped, bulged, tweaked, generally F’ed up…etc.).
If it were my gun, I would hand lap the barrel, re-crown the muzzle, and look at a hone & mirror polish of the air compression chamber/tube…always use new breech and piston seals….if the piston comes all the way out…replace the seal…sounds anal I know, but perfection has it’s price….
I know this is going to be LONG….so get some snacks and some sodas, a pillow for your butt…take the phone off the hook…..here we go….wheeeeeeeeeee (PS…remember, I am not a pro photographer but the pics aren’t TOOOOO bad)….
HISTORY:
I had a lady who bought her older son a RWS Diana 350Mag specifically for hunting in the desert here in Las Vegas (it was his Birthday gift). He had read about how wonderful and powerful the 350Mags were/are as “hunters”, so that is just what he wanted. From the day that he got it, he thought that it seemed a bit under-powered compared to his “factory stock” 22 cal. Beeman R1…yeah , it still shot a bit harder than the R1, but it didn’t seem as powerful as what he had hoped…both he and his mother were sad and disappointed. This guy’s Mom was a friend of my Mom’s, so I heard the story and my Mom told me to look at it for him (my Mom doesn’t ask, she TELLS –LOL-).
The gun was dropped off to me…it gave low #’s with 21g Kodiaks (my pellet of choice for shooting and testing 350Mags – BTW, I use a digital gram scale to make sure that all of the pellets are within 2/10th of each other in weight to even out the high/lows in the chrony #’s – that is what match shooters in the Olympics and Marine Shooting Team do [and others who are serious about consistency]). On the chrony, it was throwing Kodiaks in the HIGH 580s to very low 590s (about 70-80 fps off of what I expect a 350 Mag to do)…I have the folder right here in front of me as I type and that is what my notes indicate!
I replaced the piston seal with a factory Diana seal and a factory breech seal (always replace both at the same time (ya never know if a customer has used a conventional “gun solvent” intended for powder burners on their air rifles which can damage a breech seal)…NEVER E-V-E-R re-use a piston seal!!!!!!!…still, no significant change in the chrony numbers. The crown looked good with no visible irregularities in the barrel rifling …I looked down the air chamber and didn’t see anything (my mistake but read on)…I was baffled…I called the owner and talked for a good long bit…he stopped by and shot one of MY PERSONAL 350 Mags and could notice the difference between his and mine…He shot his at a dry 2x4, then mine….the penetration on his was less than mine to be sure…that penetration test was more “real world” to HIM than looking at numbers on my chrony…it made more sense to him in his own head, after all, #’s didn’t translate into a VISUAL depiction of power IN HIS HEAD...I totally understand that and am not knocking him or anybody else who uses that method…still makes sense to me too…
I asked him if I could hang on to the gun and keep on testing as (( I )) was now baffled (engineers don’t like to be baffles – we want answers or we go Nucking Futs internally)…unlike most people, he told me that I could do whatever was necessary to correct the problem…I let him take my stock 350 as a loaner while I had his…gave him a tin of Kodiaks and told him to enjoy…he smiled…I like it when customers smile…makes ya feel good inside!!
I sat and I thought and thought for days and days BEFORE disassembling the gun again for another round of further inspection. After all, there just isn’t THAT much that can cause such strife…barrel, breech seal and shim, air transfer port, compression chamber, and piston seal….5 possible culprits. I made a molded lead button of his barrel rifling and hand lapped his barrel & did a crown cleanup…no change…ahhhhhh…now it had become personal!! I called him and told him that I wanted to drill the end of his barrel, tap it (thread it) and screw an air pressure gage and test for PSI and any air leakage (and that I would cut 3/8 of an inch off the barrel to get rid of the threading and re-crown and re-blue, but he didn’t like that idea as he thought (wrongly) that loosing 3/8” off his barrel would make it shoot not as accurate and hard – big sigh – that type of thinking is why I don’t tune anymore. BTW, I offered to do that at no extra charge…this had become a mission with me…grrrrrrrr!!
Now I was at my wits end…how was this possible?!?! What could be the cause??? OK, Step 2 (I’m almost embarrassed to say)…I replaced the spring with one of my personal spares…new and unused….still no change!!!!! Agggggg *^(&#)(@*$)*)(($)(@*#_!!! I was ready to have a stroke!!!
When I disassembled the gun to retrieve MY spring, I slid a LED light with a long flexible neck down into the air chamber to look for any irregularities…well, no nicks or scratches, but I WAS appalled that a better job of honing the air chamber had not been done at the factory, but then again, I am the ULTIMATE nit-picker & perfectionist…I am just not convinced that a through hone and polish is done on ANY factory gun REGARDLESS of who manufacturers it….if it is an assembly line “production gun” and mass produced, well…the extra time just can’t be given to each unit off the line…that is EXACTLY WHY some manufacturers have a “custom shop” for putting out “tricked out stuff”….but ya PAY a “TRICK PRICE”…that is true of powder burners, air guns, $2900 Custom Vortec Bow Tie Heads for a Chevy 454, etc.
For a “manufacturer’s custom shop” gun, figure that you can expect to add 25% and up to the retail price of the gun depending on how NUTS ya go with the customization!
SIDE NOTE:
Hey, is there anybody here who is willing to pay, oh…say, 25%-%50 MORE for their airguns JUST to be sure that they are closer to “dead nuts perfect” BEFORE it gets to your hands?!?!?! I am not trying to be rude, just realistic? For myself, the answer is HELL NO!!! If ya pay, say, $350 for your 350Mag, and ya add 25% to that retail price for example, that is an EXTRA $90….people will spend DAYS scouring the internet for an ONLINE DEAL to save on just shipping and handling for God’s Sake!!!...and we haven’t even added up to the 30-40-50% over retail yet…just food for thought. BUT, I WILL say that if a gun is shooting poorly, has been returned over and over (thinking of poor Martin), and if the company offers a limited lifetime warranty, then damm it to hell, they should replace the darn gun…that is good customer service, good business practice for “word of mouth advertising, and just plain fair…if the people here REALLY do boycott and refuse to buy more “AMERICAN imported Diana” guns, just because of Umerex, then Umerex HAS lost much more then the cost of the gun, and of course, to a degree, the BAD word of mouth advertising will continue!!!
NOW BACK TO THE TUNE STORY….
If ya don’t remember, I had taken the gun apart to retrieve MY spring, so I thought that I would hone and mirror polish the inside of the air chamber as it was KILLING the perfectionist inside of me to look at it anymore….laugh.
This story is getting way too long for an internet post, so I will say that I did a hone and a mirror polish…then I looked down and I saw a little snafu…like a little shadow in the air chamber…odd…couldn’t feel it with a bamboo skewer but was sure I could see it…not gonna put it together again and take it back apart AGAIN so I did ANOTHER run with the honing tool and then ANOTHER mirror polish and POOF, that odd little shadow was G-O-N-E!!! I reassembled the gun, again, with a NEW piston seal (never re-use…remember that from 500 pages back? -laugh-)…BAM….right up to par…started throwing those Kodiaks at mid to high 660 fps…and the problem NEVER came back so, while we may NEVER know what that little shadow anomaly really was (I think it was just an imperfection from the original manufacturing process)…when it left so the did the problem…the odd thing is that there was not a tell-tale-sign or marking on the original piston seal as I checked THAT first thing…think the shadow was like a little MICRO SIZED dip (like an air pocket from when the metal was forged and the manufacturing process, like the original bore & hone revealed it) and it was breaking the air seal as the tiny little lip of the piston seal passed over it as it was nearing the end of is forward stroke and allowing a temporary pressure leak. Remember, big air pressure buildup and big heat buildup all happening in less than 8/10th of a second when the sear breaks and the piston moves forward.
BTW....I charged the guy and his mom $140 for the service...and yes, I did a lube, de-burr, re-crown, hone & polish, new OEM seals (breech and piston)...actually, I miss tuning....too bad people have to argue so much when they don't know the facts and get so silly or I would do it again...too much silliness and arguement...oh well..hope I helped with the info and pics...
Before hone and mirror polish…look at that CRAP and the owner has only had the NEW gun a few weeks…
After the 2nd hone…the cruddy crap is gone…now time to mirror polish…
WOW…look at that mirrored finish….pretty slick if I do say so myself…
Another closer look at that mirrored finish….God I love it –giggles- …
I know this was ungodly long…so who fell asleep….be honest…laugh….seriously though, factory, PRODUCTION, assembly-line items, be it guns, car engines, etc. will, more often than not, have SOME little quirk that needs to be resolved if it is significant enough to be an issue...but I don’t want to pay 25-30-40-50% OVER retail just to have a BIT better Quality Control or ALLEDGED custom shop quality work on a standard gun…A good tuner should be able to fix things…a gun tuner, engine tuner, a guitar tuner…after all, that is what they are paid to do…
Final thoughts….I know it sucks to get a new airgun that costs MORE than a new 30-.06 and have a F-ed up deal like poor Martin who my heart goes out to….
Umerex should have fixed or replaced….END of story in MY book…that is just good customer service and reputation preservation!!! Give Umerex a chance or maybe 2…then really get harsh (in a dignified way) and if that fails, contact Diana of Germany…small voices ARE heard in niche markets if they speak as a community!!!!
It also sucks that shipping a gun to a tuner is so expensive, both getting it there and getting it back…I used to split the cost of S&H with my customers and I did TONS of all the little extras and didn’t charge customers for doing em….it is a matter “pride of workmanship”…something that my Grandpa taught me…
Ok…sorry for the long message but I think (hope) that we covered so relevant points and perhaps learned some things and maybe has some fun together too…
Ladys and Gentlemen, shoot well and good night...Elvis has left the building.....
The End
