RedFeather (Login RedFeather) from IP address 72.83.243.103
I asked this over on the Yellow forum and the replies kind of made me feel like I spat on a mother's grave, but here goes.
Why do so many airguns, even the fairly expensive ones like the 54, come with beech stocks? Compare that to firearms where the least expensive are found stocked in beech, but, as you go up in price, you see walnut? The replies I got were that A) airguns cost more to manufacture and B) beech is a superior wood for handling stresses unique to springers. I countered that even the cheapest firearms are held to incredibly tight production tolerances and walnut seems to work fine for heavy recoiling rifles.
What's the thought here? It just seems odd that Diana doesn't offer walnut stocks. Do they feel that airgun buyers are less discriminate in their tastes? For example, the 52 Lux pictured on the RWS website does absolutely nothing for me. If only that were walnut!
Which suits you best ? Do you want the facts or would you be happier if everyone agreed with you. I'm O.K. with this really. Just state your opinion, and I'd be quite happy to agree with you if that helps any.
Setting the cost factor aside, the obvious answer is that the firing charcteristics are complimented by the heavier denser Beech, and Laminate stocks, Where as the lighter Walnut stock would be more hold sensitive, and less stable, but cost is generally the deciding factor.
I was one of those people that DID give you the courtesey of a response. Unfortunately I can only fall back on 38 years experience working with wood, and my own manufacturing process. So if this were actually a rhetorical question I completely misunderstood.
The aftermarket stocks are available purely as a matter of taste. Most are merely pretty, but as custom stocks go have never actually been fitted to the shooter. Most are remarkably similar, while others are boldly plagiarized. Ironically the most original makers are often mocked while an uneducated consumer gleans right past functional design qualities.
IE: Paul Bishop. Paul's stocks do have there own unique look, but Paul's designs are actually based on competetive geometry gleaned from his own practical experience shooting competetively, and he's no slouch behind the trigger. ;^)
IE: Dave G. ...Again the bulk of his designs are based on competetive geometry, and Dave is particularly good at machine appliances, and there are very few companies that will ever consider one off components. Dave WILL ! and that IS the very Premise of Custom Stock Work.
Manufacturing on the other hand is based on numbers, production efficiency, and price point. So it's impracticle to presume any difference as they were actually intended to be different from the Git Go ! Air Arms will generally sell you that gun in Walnut for a mere $180/190.00 dollar premium, but to date none of the production manufacturers are giving away those walnut stocks this week. Have you contacted Herr Wirth at Diana to voice your disappointment in the matter ? Other than that the shear dynamics of a spring air rifle are completely different than a fire arm so mechanically they are really very different. It's actually easier to cut a Walnut stock for a fire arm, while progressively more difficult for an air gun. The inletting alone doubles the work, and the structural dynamics would devastate a fire arms stock. Based on my own experience I'd add that the factory beech stocks from Diana will tolerate one whole hell of alot of abuse, so beauty is in the eye of the beholder. HTH.
I can cut you any stock in any wood you so desire, but I'm reasonably certain you wouldn't like the price. Then again I Will actually fit the stock to you. ;^)
About 30 years ago the firearms industry had a dearth of walnut
seemed that it was in short supply,the most common 10/22 always came in
a walnut stock until around 1979 then they started to subsitute beech
for the wood others experimented with both injection moulded and fiberglass
stocks.
I suspect the trend followed in the indusrty as a whole. most firearms/airgun
manufactures contract out their wood.As time progressed,and prices got higher
the trend stuck, beech is far more available than walnut, streight grain, easy to work with and machine is resistant to compression and splitting.
stains well, can be steamed rendering feasable inletting on a comercial basis
some beech is darn handsome with lots of short fiddle back at 90° to the grain.
Maybe I was a tad hasty in my summation of the other posts. If the reason is stability, so be it. It's just confusing when some of the manufacturer's have stocked in walnut and I see posts by owners pointing this up as a premium feature. (Certainly treated so in the ads.)
I'm familiar with the Ruger stocks. The 10/22, rightly or wrongly, has been treated as a rebuilder's gun with a throw-away stock, hence the beech. (It's interesting to note that there was a period in the 70's when Ruger ran out of beech and contracted some runs in maple.) If you look at the grade of walnut in a 10/22 Deluxe Sporter and their 77/22 bolt action, you can see a good bit of difference there, as well.
While beech may be the best wood for springers, I still find it a bit drab on a lot of guns. Maybe it's the finish. I can say that there might be room for improvement in that area. Maybe a different coloration, altogether. I have a beech stocked CZ that attempts to duplicate a walnut tone but turned sort of muddy. So, how about the laminates? Comne to think of it, a laminated springer would really tip the scales.
Sorry if I offended anyone. I'm learning all the time. No need to read the Riot Act.
As soon as I get some time to post a few pics of factory wood
beech isn't all that bad, got a Take off from Paul watts for an HW 30S
(R7) that is a factory stunner.
Sylvan
Something that was once pointed out in a very good book on the 10/22 and which I have found to be the general rule for beech stocks - You will often encounter a 10/22 stock with some terrific fiddle back or flaring patterns. Turn it over and 99 times out of 100 it will be as plain as a mud fence.
I don't dispute that you can encounter some fine looking beech stocks. There are even old military guns such as Swedish Mausers which exhibit some darn nice wood that's better than commercial guns. That said, a LOT of airguns, be they Diana's or Gamo's or whatevers, have factory finishes that are utilitarian, at best. It just gave me the impression that many people simply accept this and the factories, to paraphrase Henry Ford, are saying "You can have any color you want so long as it's plain beech."
As to what constitutes a "custom" stock. I suppose there are custom stocks (small "c") of the after-market variety and truly Custom stocks wherein the owner is fitted, given style, checkering, engraving,fittings and other options such as you would expect from Holland and Holland. The majority of custom stocks I was referring to were largely of the former kind that you sometimes see on JM's website or posted by owners of "DIY's".
Not trying to lock horns here on the forum with any artisans or master craftsmen. I don't know or correspond with Herr Diana, nor am I on a first name basis with many custom service providers here in the airgun community. While I have an interest in airguns, it is not my sole interest. And, while a couple of production Diana's are the current extent of my "better" airguns, they in no way should be taken as a measure of what I can afford. One reason I posted my question here, on the DianaWerke, is that it is a bit more open to discussion.
I missed the Hayday of the DIY JM stocks, procrastination I guess or just waiting for a left hand stock. Wonder if the Master Spring Maker will ever bless us again. I notice that affordable enough semi custom stocks are hard to come by.
Think I'm gonna shop around Europe maybe the Dutchman can turn us on to something.Been looking for a replacement Stock for a 27.hard to find.
this outfit had some last year.
Had a heck of a time with german,
but babelfish came to the rescue.
I did the same thing when Fajen went out of business
March 11 2008, 11:23 AM
The family factory, that is, as there are still Fajen stocks in a very limited selection. They had a special on 10/22 cheery Mannlichers with steel pistol grip cap and Niedner checkered steel buttplate. Fully finished drop-ins @ $250. One of the most elegant I've seen. Much better than Ruger's. Dawdled and then they were gone. Should have bought half a dozen. The $$$ I coulda made.
Good luck on the stocks. Hope you get lucky and find a nice one.
Honestly steamed Beech commands a premium here in the U.S.
March 11 2008, 2:36 PM
But the product is stable, and the source is reliable compared to other woods. In Europe however beech is as common as pine is here, and that establishes the industry norm for airguns. I can purchase #2 Walnut for less than half the price of beech, but the color and density will vary wildly compared to steamed beech so the manufacturer will invariably stick with Vanilla ! ;^)
This is precisely what we do here. We rarely ever offer custom work these days as it's considerably easier to sell 50 production stocks than deal with 50 clients. The manufacturer generally knows precisely what they want, and how much they are willing to pay, and that is the single most vexxing aspect of marketing. ;^)
If I remember correctly the reason why they use Beech in the German guns is because it is more plentiful in Germany, the Germans do use Walnut but if you notice the Diana 75 had a Walnut stock years ago and before they quit making them they were Beech at the last.
