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Why no barrel on top magnum springer carbines?

March 13 2008 at 8:40 AM
  (Login airbethere)
from IP address 4.244.159.181

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Imagine a underlever cocking springer 36" OAL with the barrel on top
the spring/piston tube or compression cylinder and the spring/piston
travel or power release stroke back toward the breech or shooter. Just
like a P1/HW45 pistol.

I like compact/short and potent. Also not to heavy. Plus built in
power plants and a single cocking stroke to get at all the power.

All this loooooong, heavvvvvvy and drooooopy crap sucks! Pumping,
stroking a bunch of times to get at all the power sucks too!

36" OAL, 7ish lbs. and say 15,16 - maybe 17 FPE in .22. Man IMO
that'd be great!

Heck I'll take one delivering 12 FPE in .177 or the same in .22 -
it'd still be decent!

Whatdaya think?

Herb

 
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RedFeather
(Login RedFeather)
72.83.243.103

You mean a stacked arrangement?

March 13 2008, 8:51 AM 

I have a Hurricane that is exactly like that. Guess it has been done ina rifle at some time or other. I would imagine that, with the transfer port going around the bend, there will be some power loss compared to a conventional configuration. If you want compact, how about a bullpup? Don't the Chinese make a side lever bullpup?


 
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Curtis
(no login)
24.253.86.224

The famous JW 80 by John Whiscombe

March 13 2008, 11:50 AM 


There are many people who have never heard of John Whiscombe and his amazing rifles....sad news is that I HEARD (don't know if it is true or not) that John is finally retiring to slow down and enjoy life...

Here is a link to his site...

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/sgoodwin/JW/index.html

I think his picture download page has been pulled, so here are some pics of the JW80...still, go to his site and read the great info...I always wanted one of these but never got around to getting on the mile long waiting list..





-Curtis

 
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Curtis
(no login)
24.253.86.224

Where did my pics go..laugh...try again

March 13 2008, 11:57 AM 

These are pictures of the JW80....was his "top of the line" thunder stick!!!





-Curtis

 
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Héctor J Medina G
(Login HectorMedina)
189.182.30.110

What am I not getting here?

March 13 2008, 3:19 PM 

Curtis;

I have no problems with Mr. Whiscombe, and I have gone through his page several times over the years. However, let me state the facts as I see them:

I can get a .22" D-54 to shoot at 19 ft-lbs with excellent accuracy and using only ONE stroke and three operations (opening, loading of pellet and closeing of the cylinder). I did it in 0.177" and I see no reason not to put the same benchmark/demand on my new 0.22" gun.

After all the tricks and turns, I will have invested in the D-54 about US$1,000 (starting MSRP here in México is about US$800).

Why should I pay US$2,250 to get the same power level with TWO strokes and SEVEN operations (Outstroke, instroke, outstroke, instroke, opening bolt, inserting pellet, closing bolt - remember the pellet requires opening and closing of a separate bolt)? comparing the JW-65 to the D-54; if I compared the three-stroke JW-80 it would get worse; but it does develop more power.

At 33 yards (30 meters) my gun groups into the same average size group as the published JW-80 does at 30 yds.

I am sure JW's rifles are jewels unto themselves, and to each his own piece of cake; I do have the money to buy me one, but ¿why?. I'ld rather coddle my new Princess, learn to shoot it well by investing in a heckuvalot of good quality JSB pellets and enjoy every moment of it.

¿no?

Sólo mis dos centavos.



Un Abrazo!




Héctor

 
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(Login airbethere)
4.244.159.114

Forgot about the JWs -

March 13 2008, 3:59 PM 

but they aren't compact nor light. Also I hear ya Hector - makes
sense to me!

The IZH MP514K would be 'right' if it were single shot, better
built and twice as powerful.

A decent transfer port and slide open on the cocking stroke breech/
bolt should be doable. The transfer port could be straight up directly
behind the pellet or at a slight angle to reach the same point.

Herb

 
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Curtis
(no login)
24.253.86.224

Hold on guys...*covering my head*

March 13 2008, 6:02 PM 


The title of the origional string post is:

Why no barrel on top magnum springer carbines?

The first paragraph reads as follows...


Imagine a underlever cocking springer 36" OAL with the barrel on top
the spring/piston tube or compression cylinder and the spring/piston
travel or power release stroke back toward the breech or shooter.


With the title being what it is and then with the first word of the first paragraph being IMAGINE...it lead me to believe that the poster didn't know that there IS an underlever spring gun with the barrel atop the mechanisms...


I just was offering pics and some info in the hope of answering the poster's question. The only one-off element where the question and the JW80 don't coincide is that the JW80 is not a carbine. (by my standards)...other than that.....well....*laugh*

-Curtis

PS...don't want to cause a fuss...was just trying to give relavent info.

One last thing is mention of FPE was made, the JW80 is the only springer that I have ever seen that pushes over 30FPE...I have 350 Mags that I tuned for power, not smoothenss, Theoben Eliminators in .22 and .25, and an English Webley & Scott Patriot in .22 and one in .25....no where near the whopping power of the JW80 that I had the priviledge of shooting when I was in London....but all of this is just a side not that is not relavent to the origional post...just supplementary thoughts.

I DO respect your points and that is why there are so many different guns...*bows respectfully*

 
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RedFeather
(Login RedFeather)
72.83.243.103

Best said by the old standby:

March 13 2008, 9:07 PM 

"There's more than one way to skin a cat." Different strokes (in the one case, three or more) for different folks.

Now, let's work on that up down sideways transfer port to get this bullpup working. Kind of a jumbo Hurricane. Have you thought about the gyrations to cock something like that? Meanwhile, go to Archer's airgun site and check out the little 57 sidelever bullpups.


 
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(Login lettercarrier)
72.91.153.87

all I can say is

March 14 2008, 6:37 AM 

the bigger the boy the bigger the TOY

warren

and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"

 
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Héctor J Medina G
(Login HectorMedina)
189.182.30.110

Herb & Curtis; Curtis and Herb really

March 14 2008, 10:30 AM 

Sorry if I sounded "curt", was not my intention. You have my humblest apologies. English is not my "maternal tongue" and sometimes it is difficult to convey across a keyboard the precise frame of mind/spirit.

Having said that, I think Herb is right, that is why I did not answer to Herb; but to Curtis, and then just posting my opinions. When I see Theobens being sold for US$2,000 or Whiscombes for more than that, I cannot but wonder and be grateful that Mayer & Grammelspacher is still putting out very good guns for the money. Even if you take into account the exhorbitant prices we pay here in México. You are much better off in the US with its good and progressive import freedom.

Coming back to the subject, Yes, Herb is right and in more than one count:

1.- If you see the performance of the Webley pistols (BTW, Webley HAS built in the past Carbines on the same principles, look at top and bottom guns in this picture):



you can see that the performance is way out of proportion of the spring force and the swept volume. ¿Why? because of a thing called "airgun effect" in the ballistics world or "ram shock effect" in the hydraulic world.
Think about the times when you close your faucet very fast. There is a LOUD "THUNK" in the pipe. This is due to the Bernoulli's laws of continuity, where the energy of a moving fluid (water or air, it does not matter) tends to stay the same. These laws have a number of effects in airgunning, and devoting a few hours to think about them is probably the best investment an airgunner can do if he ever wants to understand the physics behind the sport he loves. But I digress: The airgun effect means that if the flow of air is going in one sense (in the webley pistols it is going backwards, towards the shooter), and then has to go forward, then the pressure spike in the compression chamber is TWICE the pressure spike than what you get in a normal compression chamber (for those of you that handle vectors, it is a reversal of the momentum of the piston, therefore the opposing pressure that produces that reversal of directions means doubling the magnitude of the opposing force). This means that there is more energy available to transmit to the pellet. So, therefore, MV is higher. So, by stacking the barrel on top of the compression chamber and then making the piston go backwards while the pellet goes forwards you actually imagined a more efficient mechanism. Efficiency being defined as the proportion between the energy you put into the spring, compared to the energy coming out in the pellet.

2.- IF the barrel went on top, then the barrel itself can act as cocking lever. No need to have a separate cocking underlever. This has been incorporated in a number of guns, but again, the most notable are the Webley's. This simplifies the mechanism and makes it easier to manufacture. It should mean that the barrel needs to be real stout, but that should be like that anyway, again, look at the Webleys and wonder how such a slim barrel can be so stiff.

3.- By making the piston go backwards, then the shock wave imparted to the shooter is more "conventional". Shooters will not miss the rear-thrusting recoil compared to firearms.

4.- Scopes can also be more "conventional" because there is no forward recoil. Sure there is the scope-killing vibrations, but not the reverse recoil.

So as you see my dear friend, though your imagination treads on trodden grounds, is well oriented and very sensible. As a matter of fact, I should have somewhere Valery's design for a pistol that works like this and that he has looked for someone to manufacture. At one point in time I even sent the design to M&G, to Herr Andre Wirth, when he was the Big Honcho over there. His answer was that the product line was rather complete and that they had other things in the works (this was when the 460 was in the design stage).

Anyway, hope I have clarified everything. Again, my humblest apologies to Curtis if I sounded too "sharp". It was not my intent.



Un Abrazo!




Héctor

 
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Curtis
(no login)
24.253.86.224

TO Hector....now I feel bad too

March 14 2008, 10:19 PM 

Hector, I H-O-P-E that I did't seem as thought I was offended by YOUR post when I wrote mine.

I own 2 Thoeben Eliminators, (1) in .25 and (1) in .22....and then there are the others (Webley Patriots and my beloved 20 yr old crossman 3100 break barrel in .177) The Theoben's were, as you stated, about $2000+ to my front door....I got them as I wanted a gun that could remain cocked when I would walk the desert hunting Jackrabbits(they use gas rams as I am sure that you know) and at that time in my life, I wanted something that you generally don't see in the average person's collection (if they even have a collection); something that would inspire AWE in people when they saw them.

But then there are my Diana's like my beloved 350 Mags in .22.....they are my FAVORITES of all regardless of price. I have a 48 and a 54 in .22 and my 34 Panter in .22....I love them, but the 48 and 54 don't fit my needs (but they ARE great guns)...I hunt Jackrabbit in the desert where the average shot is between 40 and 55+ yards...my 350 Mags do that job BETTER than the $2000+ Theobens at 1/6 of the price.

I 1000% agree with you, Mayer & Grammelspacher (Diana) gives us INCREDIBLE guns at TOTALLY affordable prices.....compare a 350 Mag to a Beeman R1. The stock R1 is about $250 or MORE than a 350 Mag and I'll tell ya, the only thing better on the Beeman is that Rekord trigger, but then my tuned T05 triggers feel darn good to me.

Again, I agree wiht you, I do not think that there is a better deal in REAL German airguns than what Diana gives us.

If I had to get rid of all of my guns but ONE, there is one particular 350 Mag that I would keep...she is my favorite above all!

If I sounded harsh, I apologize as it was not my intent. bows head respectfully

extends hand to Hector to shake Now lets go shooting big smile

 
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(Login HectorMedina)
189.164.163.165

None taken, my friend!

March 15 2008, 10:59 AM 





Un Abrazo!




Héctor

 
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