(ranged) with my new 460 (.22) using CPs. I saw the crow sort of fly to another branch and it looked like it wanted to fall but it didn't, then after about a second I heard the thump from the pellet striking it. I aimed about 6 inches high.
My question is, what is the longest distance I can hope to kill feathers with .22 at 850fps? I believe a .177 can possible have a longer kill distance.
You need 2 things to kill anything. Except a rabbit. Fear will kill them all alone....
Crow's too smart for that. For a crow, we need enough energy in the pellet for penetration, and we must be accurate enough to hit said crow in a vital area.
For the energy, us a ballistic calculator. I'd suggest you'd still want at least 5fpe, and 8 would be better, on impact.
For accuracy, that's up to you.
What range are you zeroed for? If it was at 20 yds or so, your holdover at 135 would be closer to 3 feet than 6"....
Crows are intelligent. Do them the favour of taking them humanely, or pass on the shot!
Sure am glad your new 460 is workin' for you, though!
A few years back when the Remington Sendaro "beanfield" rifles were all the rage, a gun writer related a conversation he had with an owner of one such rig. "I've got a 400 yard rifle!" says the owner. "Ah, yes," replied the gun writer, "But are you a 400 yard shot?"
Going for extreme range when hunting with an airgun is pretty dicey. Ballistics aside, you have to consider how much wind drift comes into play. At some point, the terminal velocity is going to be pretty low so you won't get rapid kills. Put the two together and it begins to fall short of sporting.
If you want a real world test of your gun's effectiveness at long range, set up some empty coke cans at various distances, then see if you can repeatedly hit them and what the penetration is like.
do that with Coke cans if you plan to hunt Coke cans.
If you plan on shooting anything alive, try doing it with targets that are the same size as the vitals of your intended prey. Coke bottle caps come to mind as being about the right size for pigeons' heads, a common soda cracker would be about right for a large crow's chest; and so on. Look around for bio-degradable, life-size targets, there are plenty that will adapt perfectly to your purposes.
Once you get the hang of your gun, Coke cans are HUGE targets and you will be able to do much better.
Again, I am so glad that you finally got a solid 460, even if it was YOU that had to go the extra mile!
Here are some calculations that I worked up for you based on your info...hope it helps ya!
Some term definitions:
ballistic coefficient = The numerical measure of the ability of a missile to overcome air resistance; dependent upon the mass, diameter, and form factor
User Reported Data
Pellet: Crosman Premier (Domed I assume - Pointed has different ballistic coefficient which alters calculations)
Range: 135 yards
Muzzel Velocity: 850 fps (Is this a chrony number? I think in the mid to high 830 to be closer to actual)
Pellet Cal: .22
Pellet Weight: 14.3g
Pellet Ballistic Coefficient: 0.0166
Martin's 460 Output Data - using constants listed above and ranged at 135 yards (assuming zero/null values for enviromental variables such as wind deflection, etc.
Now just for SH-TS & giggles, lets ASSUME...I say again ASSUME some things and plug these numbers into the equation using a heavier pellet...we'll try the JSB Diabolo Exact Jumbos
Pellet: JSB Diabolo Exact Jumbos
Range: 135 yards
Muzzel Velocity: 806 fps
Pellet Cal: .22
Pellet Weight: 15.90
Pellet Ballistic Coefficient: 0.033
Look CLOSE at the numbers - Muzzel energy is the same as the CP's but it all ends there...the heavier pellet with the higher (better) Ballistic Coefficient is faster at 134 yds and retains almost 300% more energy at 135 and produces a wound channel that is twice as deep
Muzzel Velocity: 806 fps
Muzzel Velocity retained at 135 yards: 483.34 fps
Muzzel Energy: 22.94 ft lbs
Muzzel Energy retained at 135 yards: 8.25 ft lbs
Estimated Wound Channel Depth: 3.0535 inches
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let's take a look at my favorite pellet in .22 cal, the 21.1g Beeman Kodiak - this is where it gets GOOD!!!!!!!!!!!
Pellet: Beeman Kodiak
Range: 135 yards
Muzzel Velocity: 690 fps
Pellet Cal: .22
Pellet Weight: 21.10
Pellet Ballistic Coefficient: 0.036
Look CLOSE at the numbers - Muzzel energy drops off with the heavier pellet. Retained speed at 135 yds is lower. But the BEAUTIFUL saving graces are the higher (better) Ballistic Coefficient and the extra weight of the pellet. At 135 yds, look at the retained muzzel energy, it's higher...and look at the wound channel depth...it's deeper
This claimed yardage to the POI (point of impact) is extreme...my shots are usually 40 to 55+ yards...rarely over 60+.
But consider this...In England where power levels are restricted to 12 ft lbs at the muzzel (without first obtaining and FAC - fire arms certificate), they are taking everything from birds to fox-sized critters...hate to say it but those English boys are putting their pellets ON TARGET in the VITAL ZONE to get their kills....
Really quick, lets see what a 12 ft lb gun shoots for numbers assuming some loose numbers for pellet weight and ballistic coefficient
12 ft lbs at the muzzel:
At a target distance of 1/2 of Martin's 135 yards...would be 67.5 yards away.
At 67.5 yards away, the APPROXIMATE ft lbs of retained energy would be 4.34
At the full 135 yards, the retained energy would approximately be: 1.57
My final conclusion is that we may not have a Queen and we may not eat Kippers (smoked fish) & gravy for breakfast (ewwwww yuck)...but baby, we got ourselves some serious knock-down power here in the ol USofA WITHOUT needing to get a government issued permit to own a magnum powered air rifle!!!
CP's are popular and have been for some time....I won't knock that OR their performance levels (cause I'll get hate mail if I do)....
But I am a .22 cal MAGNUM JUNKIE and the lightest pellet that I will pop is the 15.9g JSB Diabolo Exact Jumbos - there are arguably the best "all around" pellet available for hunting and plinking.
But for my 350 mags and the Piegons, JackRabbits, and Coyotes that I hunt in the 40 to 60 yard range, give me the 21.1g Beeman Kodiaks
If you have time, take a look at this posting...very good and you can see some of MY 350's numbers at the 55 yard range with the .22 Cal. Kodiak
the info. It's great info. To tell you the truth, I didn't even think that the pellet would have penetrated a crow (not grackle)at that range. Yes the 850+ is chronied although I dont think I am getting quit 690 from Kodiaks. There was zero breeze that day and my holdover seemed like 6 inches, but at that range it might have been more. Anyways, I doubt I will be trying anything at that range again. I was just excited about the velocities of my new 460. My actual favorite pellet for close range is the Crow Magnum because I have done the Nutrogena soap bar ballistic test and have seen the results. For medium range, I have chosen the Predator. For longer ranges the cp seems to work nice. I guess I need to shoot some more Kodiaks but the velocities just seem slow, but I guess it makes sense that they do keep their velocities more at longer range. My pellets are:
1)Crow Mags
2)Predators
3)Crossman Premiers
4)Kodiaks
5)Air Arms pointed 16.0 grain field
At that range, you would have needed about 3 feet of holdover. I think you hit the tree and it sounded like it hit the crow. Crows are tough to penetrate with side body shots. Those wings when folded are like flak jackets. Take a big sheet of plywwod and position it at 100 yards and then shoot til you hit it. I think you'll be surprised at how high you need to aim. That isn't to say you can't shoot at that distance, but unless you've sighted your rifle in at that range or have the correct hold over (using mil dots or adjsting your POA) it would be luck to hit a crow at that distance.
"but I'll be needin' that gun, fer squirrels and such."
I once shot a crow way high in the air with a 22.cal. rimfire. A very loud thud, but this mystical bird only keep right on flying. Good Karma that he lived! He gave me a very big lesson! I will never shoot one of these great birds again. These Black winged flyer's carry a lot of spirit!
"The wing of the Falcon brings to the king, the wing if the crow brings him to the cemetery.
Muhammad Iqbal"
What is a group of crows called (as in "a gaggle of geese")?
The poetic term for a bunch of crows is a "murder."
135 yrds is overextending the power of an air gun by 3X
I still have to bag a Crow with my 34, 40, 48 and 460 (am I a bad shot, maybe) and they come by the hundreds next to my house, I can pick and choose. not saying that have shoot at them many times but only with a chest or head shot will you bring one down and at that distance WOW
not saying it cannot be done
warren
PS: Harry is the resident expert on Crow's and if he say's I am wrong then I am DEAD WRONG, no excuses from my part
and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"
Crows are very tough and like Bill explained it's like they have armor all around them with those wings folded up, but it's not just the wings, it's those plastic-like tough bones that each feather has that makes them so tough to bring down and to penetrate vitals. So a frontal or head shot is best. The last crow I took with the 350 using a CP was a broadside shot and it penetrated the chest all the way through from side to side but that was only 27-28yds out if I remember correctly.
It's interesting Bad Karma mentioned those supersticious quotes about crows. In my grandparents' village they used to say if a crow lands on the roof or chimney of your home someone was going to die in that house. The villagers said that had happened several times when someone was very sick. There are many supersticions about crows around the world, probably more than any other bird or animal and that kind of makes you think..
I hope Bad Karma and all those poets are wrong otherwise I 'm a walking dead man Maybe it's good that you have missed all the crows you shot at Warren!
But also you know what they say.. it's only true if you believe in those supersticions.
Diana 350 Mag .22
Hammerli 850 .22
A few Crosman CO2 & Pump .177
You said long range shooting so I said use Coke cans
March 16 2008, 3:00 PM
"If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball." If you can penetrate a coke can at 130 yards, you can likely take game cleanly. Coke cans are good for what you are doing. Bottle caps are not. We are not talking about fifty yeards here. It's hard to even resolve a bottle cap at 135 yards with the naked eye.
Crows are special birds to me. They can count to ten, sleep in hugh rookeries with birds taking turns standing guard duty, and clean up the roadkill our country is now too cheap to dispose of. (Particularly thankful for the removal of skunks - we have a skunk crossing by the high school that usually accounts for several stinky fatalities a year.) Ever seen a plucked crow? Mostly beak. It's amazing how small the bodies are.
We were hit particularly hard here in Northern Virginia when the West Nile Virus arrived. Went for a few years without seeing more than one or two crows, tops. Now the resistant ones are coming back.
Starling, on the other hand, ought to be on everyone's hit list.
As to pellets, it seems, in magnum guns like your's, the heavier the better for accuracy at long range. Carry-up, or ability to retain energy and hit hard, are also a plus.
If you tire of soda cans, try charcole briquets. Speaking of which, I have several pounds of steak to put on the Weber.
Maybe it's good that you have missed all the crows you shot at Warren!