I've been readin a lot about the energy levels of various airguns. People are talking about tuning up for power. I think this is a problem in the making. The reason is, a smooth air rifle is a joy to shoot. So here's my thinking;
If you want a powerhouse, get the 350 or 460. With enough shooting you will find these monsters accurate. And they do smooth out for their power too. I've fired a few stock broken in 350s and I knew they could take the game per their high energy levels.
Because...
Its easier and more fun to shoot a high powered air rifle that's broken in or tuned in some way to be smoother then it is to raise the power on an air rifle. Granted fpe can and most often does drop after some work. If the tune is done well enough you can regain some of that lost energy after the tune settles in.
These spring piston airguns are not meant to be mid powered rimfires.
I'm leaving that sentence all by itself in order to stress that airguns are not firearms. If people want firearm energy in an airgun, go pcp. There are design perameters which determine not just the power level of these airguns but the unquantifiable factor of enjoyment of shooting the air rifle.
If you can consistantly hit what you're aiming at you do not need as much energy as you think. You just (that little 'just' may be the hardest working 'just' I think I've ever written) need to do one thing. You can start doping the wind.
At the end of last year I spent a few shooting sessions with two flags at forty yards. I shot off a picnic table on a windy day and just concentrated on walking pellets in (into the bullseye). Like I said, "just" is a mighty big word here. But here's the deal. It was fun! I learned a few things and will be doing it again this year.
I learned that a lower powered air rifle is more than adequate with enough attention to detail and practice at the trigger. Ok, I knew that already but I still like to go back to the basics and reacquaint myself with them.
The Brits and much of Europe are limited to 12 fpe in their air rifles. They do what they do just fine. There is, however, one thing I believe they're more in touch with in the world of shooting airguns than we are as a general rule; they know how to read the wind.
I think the difference between shooting a lower powered air rifle and a higher powered air rifle is this. That the difficulty of shooting the higher powered air rifle is the cost of a rougher shooting cycle. You spend more time working through and learning the hold/follow through before you ever get the chance to learn the wind on any level. Whereas shooting the smoother lower powered air rifle, it seems much quicker, easier to learn the shooting characteristics and then move forward to learning wind doping sooner.
Any air rifle, as good as it may be, is still just a tool in this discipline. The more refined the tool, the more acute the shooter's understanding should be in order to dial into the ultimate goal. To focus more closely on becoming perfectly accurate.
Well said Harv
Iwas shoting 77 tonight 25yrds could not see the bulls eye any more so i walked out and made one small one size of a ink pin two more shots dam not big enough its gone LOL
If its not broke dont fix it.
Ray
Glad someone did "say this".
It seems as though the whole concept of airgunning has been lost. More power truly yields
...nothing.
Especially when the shooter can't even wish the pellet into the correct placement.Of course the extra 4 or 5 fpe of a power tune will definitely make all the difference in the world.
Still there, isn't it? Magnumitis. Is there a known cure? Just kidding....just kidding.....
That's kind of echoing some of my sentiments. Harder shooting guns tend to be harder to shoot. Call it recoil, whatever. While you gain power, you tend to lose something else. And just how much more power do you need? Again, it's based upon what you want your airgun for. Lots of guys looked down their noses at the .30-06 and .270 when the 7mm Remington Magnum came out, although they will do just about everything that one will and without the extra recoil. Kind of the same thing. Hard to spend an afternoon on the bench with a 7mm Remington or one of the Weatherby numbers. Isn't it the same thing with some of these "magnum" springers?
I will say that, recently, most of the posts here have centered around the 350 and 460. Too bad Diana doesn't make a mid-range springer along the lines of the old 27. (I know there's the 24 but that's a very basic, entry level gun.) Seems all the catering is to highpowered models and cheap PCP's.
As Rick has said before and I agree, the sweetest shooting airguns seem to be within the 600-900ish range. Mid eights to nines referring to .177 caliber. I've also gotten to enjoy airguns which have enough weight to offset their recoil. Even if that weight is substantial, I prefer them that way.
Interesting comments about the 7 mil Remingtons. Its become ingrained in people that flat shooting velocities in rifles that rattle the shooter's brains are still somehow better then more docile powder rifles. The caliber that probably kept Winchester and Marlin in business for some part of their existance must've been the .30-.30. Here is a caliber that for all intents and purposes is referred to as today's "brush gun". A rifle which was the go-to gun on the open plains of the midwest for generations. As it was then and still is, the first point was shot placement. And to achieve shot placement you had to understand windage. In order to get good at reading windage you had to shoot a lot.
There's been talk in the firearm world that a slower projectile is not necessarily a bad thing. Writers not tied to product sales are reconsidering the slower rounds and the possible advantages they may hold. I always enjoy revisiting the new, with its reference to the common beliefs that develop alongside it, against the time and experience proven foundations to thought. Sometimes the good ideas are forgotten between one generation and the next. Sometimes what was once thought to be factual is revisited and found to be.. less that exactly right. No matter what conclusions are debated it remains that one must be able to hit what one is aiming at. Naturally big game rifles (think African Wildebeasts etc here) had astounding recoil but those things were made to hit gigantic targets and stop them even with imperfect shot placement. Deer on the western plains of North America required closer shot placement and, I imagine, at further distances.
No, the lowly .30-.30 had to be able to hit accurately and kill effectively or it wouldn't have lasted all these years. Much the same as the mid velocity air rifles fit their tasks as well as they ever have. They were and are the more enjoyable air rifles to shoot. Excessive recoil upsets the balance.
My old Zouave repro in .58 pushes a five hundred grain Minie at about 900 fps. That is almost pedestrian slow in the world of modern rifles. It will kill just about anything on the North American continent if you can get within range. And it won't break your shoulder, either. Another really good big bore is the old .375 H&H. Not really too bad a kicker and very potent. Sort of the milder version of the big magnums. Maybe liken it to the 54 in .22? Now you will make be buy an old 27 I've run across. Durn you mid-velocity guys!
Good points that you brought up, however I feel the need to counter these with some recent realizations of my own. Might
For decades past I got along with my trusty .177 Beeman/Diana Model 35 as my "High Power Varmiter" and my "C" Model Sheridan as my "Brush Gun". Several other rifles (Spring and Pneumatic Pump) filled in the 400-500fps .22 and my similar action, (sub-650fps) .177's were my "Soft Shooters".
Lately things have changeddramitically! I bought and tuned the RWS Model-40 just purchased, .177 Model-34, and likewise new .22 Model-36. My hard-hitting .22 Webly Stingray Carbine bumped my .22 caliber, Benjanin 392 (Sheridan replacement) as a Brush Gun.
The Model 40, Model 36, and a Beeman R-11have become real Mind re-arrangers! Suddenly I have found an honest "Use" for a12- 14ftlb "Go-to" gun! Long range .177 caliber, 40 to 50+ yard tackdrivers actually DO have a place! The Pellet shattering power of a Magnum Class.22, with honest, 40 yard FLAT trajectorys DO also have a "place" in the average airgunners Battery. Though it seems to be a waste, these magnum .177's can also hold their own @ 10m Groups are often scandelous, resulting inragged one-holers to VERY satisying cloverleafs are the norm off the bench!
These powerfull .22 Magnums are easilly lubed (via modern JM greases) to give buzz-free operation and realistic all-day shooting pleasures! Oddly, I choose to shoot both of my powerfull .22's open sighted. Both offer similar preformance(in terms of velocity and trajectorys) to my much softer shooting self-tuned RWS Model-92 and my "snappy" self-built and Tuned, R-7 sprung, Diana Model-25D! However, both "Soft Shooters" are scoped... This odd-fellow quartet are astoundinglly similar to use as plinkers, though the impact and destruction of the heavy .22 pellet is much more satisfying!
The nitche filled by the "HOT" long range .177's is new ground in my airgunning experience! Accurate 50+ yard shots formerly unbeknownst to me with an airgun! Literally being able to "walk" pellets around a target at former .22 Long Rifle ranges is real fun! Quality Pellet cost is similar to the R/F but without richoet or noise objection.
YES! The Magnum airgun has a place for airgunners!
I still cherish time spent with Scoped,and Tweeked Daisy SSP rifle with it's smoothed and lightened trigger, and it's "Stock" HW-55 stablemate. Nothing compares to their ease of function, "shoot all day" manners!
I suggest that we don't allow ourselves ti become monolithic in our airgun shooting. We should allow for the well earned "place" the Magnum fits.
I am still bewieldered with the broad scope of shots capable with my new .22 Model-36! It has re-opened a forgotten door of the early days with that open sighted Beeman 35, a forgotten day of see-it, aim, and hit it! Sorta what drew me into airgunning in the first place...
If you go back through the original post it has to do with making air rifles achieve velocities well above what they might with reasonable weight pellets in stock or close to stock configuations. As I wrote in the original post, .177 rifles in the mid nine hundred fps is par for a lot of models right from the factory. Mid eights is the upper end for .22 caliber airguns and even then they can be fairly harsh to shoot compared to airguns with lower velocities.
Cases in point. My R11 is pretty hot. I haven't chronied it in a long time but its got some pretty serious energy output. Same with my tuned FWB124. Both are in .177. I also have a Prosport weighing in at somewhere around nine pounds sans scope. That one in .22 puts out a solid eighteen and a half fpe. Nice rifle but it needs all the weight to counter that much energy output.
The point I'm making is energy output can be increased to the point where it robs the rifle of its potential accuracy. Especially noticeable at longer ranges. Making an air rifle pump energy above a certain point also makes the rifle too harsh too shoot well consistantly. Something has to suffer and its going to be observed in recoil. A rifle can certainly be tuned to be smoother with increased energy. It can also be fitted with weight or even a custom stock, heavier than factory ware to combat that increased recoil but once that point is reached it would have been more prudent to simply get the right tool for the job in the first place.
The rifles you mentioned still fit neatly into that operational zone where accuracy doesn't suffer as greatly as it might if, say, an R7 were power tuned to get as close as possible to the same energy levels of that RWS 36 for example. That's where internals are overworked and accuracy suffers in the quest for inreasonable power levels out of airguns not designed to make that kind of power.
Harve wrote:
<The point I'm making is energy output can be increased to the point where it robs the rifle of its potential accuracy. Especially noticeable at longer ranges. Making an air rifle pump energy above a certain point also makes the rifle too harsh too shoot well consistantly. Something has to suffer and its going to be observed in recoil.>
Not just in recoil but in life expectancy of the components. Any mechanical device that is too highly stressed will fail quicker than one subjected to reasonable loads. A recent post by someone saying they could accept a 3,000 shot cycle before mainspring failure simply floored me! One of the few advantages of spring-powered guns historically is that they seldom failed in normal useage and could often be passed on to grandchildren still shooting as good a new after a lifetime of normal duty. Obviously such is no longer the case if ANYONE is ready to accept a 3,000 shot duty cycle from ANY component.
I have Walther LG-55s that have led a hard life as gallery guns, club beaters or military trainers as betrayed by their exterior condition. A simple relube and clean-up and they still shoot within specs with original springs and seals. And a lot more accurately that the operator who is no slouch. A '72 M-27 required only a new spring (canted) and seal (just good policy) to shoot as new as was the case with an early R-7. Admittedly all the examples listed are moderate power guns. And every one noted for accuracy and easy shooting characteristics that are very user-friendly.
TANSTAAFL! Nothing comes without penalty of some nature. Dependability, accuracy, user-friendliness and longevity are the price extracted by 'Magnumitus'. "You pays your money and you takes your choice"--------but you DO have to choose one or the other. Tom
If you have read any of my posts in the past, I'm sure that it is clear that I am a lover of .22 cal magnums and super-magnums as they fill a need that I have which accounts for about 90% of my shooting.
I don't see a problem tuning for magnum power or super-magnum-power PROVIDING that the gun will take the stress gracefully, the tune is done PROPERLY, and finally, that the custom understands the "give & take" in regards to power and smoothness. I don't see a problem de-tuning a gun either if that is what the customer wants...we all have needs and these great GERMAN guns that we love so much can fill those needs, or be tweaked and refined to fit the bill...IMHO.
I shoot feral Pigeons at 40-50+ yards (they ruined my roof to the tune of $1600 in repairs).
I hunt Desert Jackrabbit and Coyotes at 40-50+ yards...
I shoot the bottoms of soda cans at 30-40-50-60 yards to practice my "offhand" shooting skills.
I shoot my little 20 yr old Crosman 3100 in .177 at paper and cans in my yard when I am relaxing with a smoke & coffee...it is dead-nuts accurate to about 20+ yards with open sights & RWS SuperPoints, but it won't EFFECTIVELY and HUMANELY kill a Pigeon at 35 yards.
One of the points that was SO hard to get people to understand and actually THINK OF when I would try to answer the question of: "What gun should I get...", is that there are many different guns which fill many different needs and requirements.
It would be ridiculous to get a .22 cal 350 Mag for a "new to shooting" junior who has never held a gun. That is NOT a gun to learn with... The frustration levels would probably be enough to cause him/her to abandon the sport when they were unable to shoot "clover leaf" groups at 25 yards. But a GOOD quality gun like a TX200, a Beeman "R" series, etc. will inspire confidence with it "milder" shooting habits.
There are under levers, side levers, break barrels...pumpers, PCP, and Co2....they range from .177 cal to .497 cal....some are on beech stocks, some are on laminates, and some are walnut that can be plain grained or exibition grade with the unshaped wood costing over $2000.
There is a nitch to fill in all categories of airgunning...and most importantly, there is a lot that we can learn from each other...a person with a "mild and smooth" Beeman R1 in .22 MIGHT just learn something of value from a person talking about what was done to their 350 Magnum or W&S Patriot when it received its "super-magnum-tune". They might learn about how adding a "top hat" will go far in making the mainspring in a "springer" work more efficiently, thus potentially creating "power AND smoothness".
Maybe they learn about proper and improper lubing, shooting techniques, etc.
In closing gents, I wish to say that I think that there is a spot in this sport for all of us, including the guns we choose to shoot.
Will contact you about this more, after the holiday, OK?
I am intrested in ways to make the trigger better but it's a soft alloy of some sort and dosen't smooth-up like steel. I polished mine to a gloss and it still feels like it "drags".
When I got the rifle it had a bad piston seal I replaced it with a factory piece, pol9shed the mainspring and lubed it with JM stuff and it's VERY smooth! I also did the aforementioned trigger stuff and that's all.
Mine shoots around 700fps ( a guess, No Chrony), but seems very consistant. It is VERY pellet sensitive and so far likes the plain over the counter Daisy W/C's the best. It cloverleaf's @ 10m with em and does very well at 20-25 yards with them also!
Cocking effort is a dream with the stock mainspring! Recoil is a gentle push, and discharge noise is just a quiet "Puff" which fools you as to the decent velocity that it actually shoots.
when it comes to hunting/pesting I don't see the most powerful
springers as offering much more effective, high success rate
range. I see them as a useful tool for the bigger, tougher
small game/pests. Also for me most of the hunting/pesting will
occur this side of 50 yds. - much of it this side of 30ish yds.
Much of the time I'm trying to get in closer, trying to close
the gap. I want to 'win', I want a quick clean kill.
Probably most of the small game/pest killing I've ever done
could have been successfully, effectively done with a 12-14 FPE
.177-.22 airgun. Heck at least 50% with a 8-10 FPE .177-.22
airgun!
I'd like to hang out with a fella that has a high success rate
of quick clean kills shooting a springer/rammer at game/pests
well past 50 yds. (60,70,80,etc.). Wonder if such a fella exists! LOL
I've got a good, general book by Sam Fadala (Circa 1983)
March 20 2008, 10:57 AM
It's mostly about firearms, but he does have a decent chapter on adult airguns. His personal rifle was/(is still?) a Diana 45 - the old model with the squared trigger guard. This was considered a "magnum" at the time but no longer. In discussing choice of caliber between .177 and .22, he stated that the many rabbits taken with his Diana in .177 never knew the difference. I cite Dr. Sam because he doesn't just write about guns but really uses them to hunt with, so he writes from practical experience.
Now, within thirty yards, that old 45 is a deadly small game rifle. If you want to extend the yardage another ten or twenty, then the newer "hot" magnums come into their own. They are designed for more efficient, higher volume air flow, the parts are more robust and, as a result, they are heavier to absorb the increased "recoil". Can a gun like that 45 be upgraded to approach factory levels of a true "magnum"? Probably not, but it can be boosted a bit. As pointed out, however, it will be at a price in handling and component stress. So now you have a rifle that will go another ten yards in power but may be harder to shoot at it's original limits. Guess the whole point of this thread is why bother when you can get a decent factory "magnum", tune it a bit for better behavior, then end up with something that does the job better in all ways? Or, as the olde folkes saye, "Ye righte toole for ye right jobbe."
don't compare a 600 fps air gun to a 700, 800 or 900 and again don't try to compare cal. or brands
if you are proficient with the 600 fps in .177 why would you compare it to the .22, they are not the same
that is like asking "which one is more accurate, the .177 or .22" make your bets
if you shoot .177 in 600 fps do you "think that shooting a .22 in 900 is better, a Bulls eye eveytime?? don't think SO
It takes a very different person to shoot a different airgun. stay with the gun you master and learn with the NEW one, but most of all enjoy them with YOUR limitations, because the gun will shoot right in the Right hands
warren
PS: my personal experience
and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"
I still have my magnums of the 80's Hw80 and a fwb124.
When I shop I just can't seem to pass up a diana 27 or
an old HW 30S And those are the rifles I go to more often than not.
When I moved up North I asked the locals what they used to hunt elk,the ubiguitous 30-30 and the 243,boy was I surprised.
Their reasoning was low recoil well placed shot little damage
a caliber good for prairie dogs to Elk. What about the 30-30?
answer was there was one on every Ranch or Farm- The go to gun.
Some really interesting replies all the way around. Although I think some here have misunderstood me.
I know about long range shooting. Trust me. I use a Nikon 440 every time I hunt or cull. My scopes are mildots for quick reference and no fiddling. I know my ranges and I plot my trajectories. I have to. I cull pests on farms from the time its warm enough to hunt with a springer, until its too cold to hunt with them.
Maybe the way I should have said it was that trying to make an already magnum springer from the factory shoot another hundred fps above what it was, would most often be an excersize in futility. As Tom rightly said, the rifle would get harsh to the point of not being fun to shoot anymore. At least until it blew its guts out in a cloud.
