Ok guys,everyone here that knows me knows how much I love my 54 in 22 cal.. I know as well as others here that is the prefered cal. for a Diana 54. However, I have 2 friends that have 54,s in 177. I will have my hands back on one this weekend. I am entrusted to fine tune this gun for my close friend. Im gona stick w/ heavy Kodiaks on Loyds gun. I may try Crow Mags. again. I got jumped on pretty hard a while back for shooting light pells. from my 177/460. Im just asking for advice from my friends here. I know there must be an answer to getting aceptible results from a 54 in 177 cal. Im fine w/ Kodiaks from Loyds gun, but now as I understand it, Its gonna blow a mainspring shooting "heavys"?? Any advise guys?? Johaniss Im asking you as well. Tim.
chances are you won't blow a spring, but it will most likely have a shorter life than normal. Best bet in my book- install one of JMs GRT kits or a monolith kit if you can find one. Much better quality than factory and will certainly last longer than the stock setup, with far better shootability.
What about us who don't want to do a replacement tune?
March 19 2008, 10:21 PM
He did say it was someone else's gun, didn't he? I would like to shoot my 54 with the stock guts for a good while. I can't see laying out that kind of money and then having to do an extensive rebuild.
Hey Red Feather,Tim here. I am refering to my 67 yr. "young" friend Loyd & you. Im hoping as well as you that we can find some kind of answer to this w/out a major dissasembly/tune. I plan on trying 8.8 Crow Mags again,but last time I did they were way too fast. Hang tight my friend,we WILL resolve this! Tim. P.S. be on the lookout for a new thread from me today! (enter BIG smiley face!)
Hi Tim,
I have a mod.48 in .177 cal that loves Beeman Ram Jets (9.8grs.)with a ave.vol. of 880fps.I tried the Crow Mags but the rifle didn't like them
Hope this helps,Gary
i find the belief that more( heavier) resistance to the violent releasing of acompacted spring is going to cause More rupturing of the , it seems that common sense would dictate tha t the spring has a soter landing , therefore mor life, and cam somebody kill those darn popups
I didn't mean that I am getting WEARY of hearing YOU talk about pellet weight...I re-read my post and wanted to send you THIS thought as I didn't want to sound "snappy" with you...I enjoy your post and you have given me very kind words on my other posts in the past so I wanted to be sure that you understand that I was not fussing at you in any possible way!!!
It is just that I have heard this pellet weight issue being argued for SO many years that the misinformation and just plain wrong information wears me down. It is bad piston seals that are responsible for fatiguing mainsprings; not heavy pellets. Jim Maccari makes part of this point as well...read on for his specific quote on that and the link to his website where that assertion is made about the seals.
Let me say this....it IS true that there are some .177 guns that I would not shoot Kodiaks in...even CrowMagnums....I own one of those guns....it is a 20 yr old Crosman 3100 break barrel in .177; the 3100 is a cousin to the RWS 92/94. It is the ONLY gun that I have that I will shoot light pellets in....it LOVES RWS SuperPoints! On a personal level, I will not shoot light pellets in my .22 magnum spring guns and I don't recommend that others do either, but if they want to it is their choice to make and they have a right to make it assuming that it is their gun.
You are speaking of the 54 in .177; that is what I call a .177 magnum gun in my personal opinion. Consider this when thinking of the 54...it is a heavy stock (sturdy)...it has a "floating action"...its internal parts are sturdy and stout, not cheap and weak. That 54 will spit medium to heavy pellets and love doing it...if it were my gun....IF....I would be shooting JSB Exact Diabolos, CrowMagnums, and Kodiaks....just my opinion.
I don't shoot field target, so I have spent about an hour researching rules, guns, and equipment before I make this next assertion/observation so that I can feel confident in it's accuracy.
A thought on Kodiaks as field target pellets : Kodiaks have long been a favorite pellet for field target shooters. As one of the heaviest available pellets, the Kodiak has a high ballistic coefficient and carries a tremendous amount of inertia that delivers a strong and decisive impact on hard to knock down field targets. The heavier weight and high ballistic coefficient also provides good wind resistance and stability, and is more efficient in the higher powered airguns.
The favored caliber for field target shooters is .177 - Not everybody in field target shoots PCP guns on field target competition courses; there is a power limit on guns. I can't say what percentage of people shooting filed target are shooting magnum guns, but as I said, there are rules in field target competitions governing power levels which can't be exceeded per the rules that I just looked up.
Food for thought: If people shooting in filed target competitions CAN'T shoot guns with "unlimited power" and knowing that many ARE shooting medium power spring guns in .177 cal. like the TX 200 series, and considering that they DO like heavier pellets for the "knock down" energy that it transmitted to the targets themselves, then I think that it is not only safe, but responsible to assert based on those FEW thoughts that spring stress is NOT an issue that should keep you up at night worrying when you are talking about a Diana 54...keep reading for the Maccari quotes.
Here is a mistake that I have seen over and over when "Do-it-yourselfers" tune guns...something inside of them makes them want to polish EVERYTHING including spring ends...well, that is OK...I do it on my guns and people who's guns I have and do tune, BUT the problem comes in when people read on sites about "grinding" the ends of springs on a bench grinder and they get the last coil too thin just to make it square (flattened off) so that it looks better when polished. The problem is that the end of that last coil gets SO thin that it has a very great tendency to fracture and then break in the future as it gets stressed, or it breaks FAST. But simply shooting a mid to heavy weight pellet in a gun that is as sturdy as a 54, even in .177 is NOT going to kill the spring unless it had a flaw from during the time that it formed as a solid piece of straight spring wire, or if it was weak in a spot and the act of coiling it to form a spring made that flawed spot even weaker.
Since we are talking about grinding and breaking springs, look at this link for Jim Maccari's website and see what he says, "I will gladly defer to his masterful wisdom on this subject; look at the VERY bottom of the page and see what he has to say. http://www.airguns.citymax.com/page/page/251488.htm
Mr. Maccari also states on his website, "Without a good lockup and sealing you will just go through spring after spring..."
For a good visual image, here is the end of a OEM Diana spring that the owner ground square and got the end of the coil too thin....I polished it per his request, but no further grinding was done!
So make sure that your friend's gun has a new and well fitted piston seal, Maccari has great seals, and then do all of the other little bells and whistles that you would do anyway and enjoy the mid to heavy pellets...the gun will shine and your reputation will too!
I tip my hat to you for being concerned and asking questions BEFORE working on another person's gun; that is being responsible and down right gentlemanly - a true airgunner indeed!!!
In your service with best and warmest regards,
Curtis
PS...my offer on the spring replacement still stands as I am confident in my advice and if you want to add custom turned and "fit" guides to your 54 tune, let me know and I will work something out for you.
"the chain is as strong as it's weakest link" translate that to the spring is as strong as it's weakest COIL
grinding the end of the coils is an invitation for stress fracture, this applies to any metal and JM springs are no exeption even with a Top hat and rear guide
warren
and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"
Now that is a clear and concise way of putting it and you are 1000% correct.
The 54, IMHO, is a beauty of a gun (I have one in .22 and have shot many in .177)...they are sturdy, strong, graceful, and solid and thrive on mid to heavy pellets...they handle pellets of varying weight (light to heavy) better than most magnums (IMO) because of their "floating action"...gives all of the internal parts a bit of a "break".
For the parts of the gun that are active after the trigger is pulled, the seal and the spring are the spots to keep an eye on...if the spring is not ground too thin, then the seal is the fella to watch...keep them clean and check screws if not using Loctite and they will last.
One thing that I forgot to say in my post above is that a person has to think of how many pellets the gun is going to shoot on a weekly or monthly basis...I do about 200 or more pellets a week through my "go to 350"...I put more strain on that gun than if it were owned by a person that pops 200 pellets every few months or more...the more we shoot 'em the more care and attention they need....just like a car that gets driven 700 miles a week (like my dad's Caddy) vs. 700 miles every few months...I check dad's Caddy twice a month for him....the more you use ANYTHING the more ya need to keep things going smooth.
i have a macari spring, and it is set up to shoot at 960fps in 177, that is just making the limits of 20 fpe for the competitions at W.W.C.C.A gun club in Michigan, the tune was performed by Ken Reeves formerly of Ohio, It dots the I's on targets at 20 yds, it is my comp gun, All of this is becuase the factory Spring broke at 1500 shots as predicted by all the tuners, the violent release requiered to get 1100fps advertising was destined to kill the springs, i wanted to hunt more than compete, thats why the tuner gave in to my 960 fps demands, less power=more accuracy.
I hope this post simplifies the analizing process and reducess the stress of what to do with the tune, Listen to the shooters needs.
I have enjoyed all the posts , i love airgunning, and reading the helpful posts, some of you are truly Masters and never give until you conquer a problem.
Jerry
Not quite right there on several counts, but not 100% wrong either. First, a bad seal will make for a poor shooting gun, breaking scopes and shortening the life of the spring. However, heavy pellets are a greater cause of early spring failure in some- not all- guns, particularly those that have springs made of fairly thin wire. Diana springs are included in this category. It takes more effort to push out a heavy pellet that a light one, thats got little or nothing to do with the seal. Its not really a problem, just expect your spring to fatigue a bit sooner than it should. Some factory Diana springs- the 48/52/54 guns in particular- seem to have poor heat treating, and it seems like there is a higher than normal spring breakage rate on these, especially in .177 guns.
Field Target- I don't think anyone uses Kodiaks, they are hunting pellets. Most spring gun shooters that compete successfully seem to be using JSB Exacts and Crosman Premiers. Heavy pellets at the power level allowed would need a loopy trajectory, this would make range estimating somewhat critical. Lighter pellets in the 7-8 gr range have a flatter trajectory, thus allowing more accurate shooting with far less adjustments and estimation. This is even more of a problem in 12 ft/lb FT. Also keep in mind that many of those shooting spring guns (competitively that is) have tweaked them, rarely do they use factory springs.
Grinding springs- not a good idea to grind the ends flat, but also not a good idea to grind them much at all. A cut spring not only needs to be ground properly, the end needs to be reshaped so the end is flat. Not ground flat, but the last coil needs to be turned so as to be perpendicular to the central axis of the spring. Grinding and cutting will take the temper out of the metal, and it doesn't take much heat to do that. The less done the better. Its always better to use a spring thats a bit short and made properly than cut a long one to fit poorly. Polishing the end of the spring is always a good idea when tuning a gun. It keeps the spring from galling the inside of the piston and allows the spring to rotate easier during the firing cycle, making for a more accurate gun. Using a polished washer under the spring is usually the better way to go for that though.
The "floating action"- The 54 is not "recoilless" at all, but rather the action is isolated from the stock by the sledge mechanism. This doesn't give the action a break at all, rather it is harder on the moving parts. Because the action is moving independently of the stock, little if any energy from the firing cycle is absorbed by the weight of the wood as in most spring guns. The guarantees that this energy is retained and absorbed by the action and its associated parts. This is hard on all parts, and the scope takes a beating especially.
I looked a many MANY different Field Target Clubs and Associations in the US and Europe...read a TON of articles...
The Kodiak, especially the Kodiak Match, is referenced more times than I can count as THE TOP "heavy" pellet and a "TOP 4" field target pellet over all.
Here a direct quote from the American Airgun Field Target Association concerning pellet selection.
11. How do you determine which pellet is right for FT?
The only way to determine which pellet is right is to shoot a variety of pellets through your airgun and see which one shoots the best. Most FT shooter use the Crosman Premiers or Beeman Kodiak
Match pellets.
They DO continue on to list 2 other pellets for strong guns....both HEAVIES....
Beeman describes their Kodiak pellets on their website as follows:
Beeman Kodiak A favorite for field target shooters. As one of the world's heaviest pellets the Kodiak has a tremendous amount of inertia that delivers super impact on those hard to knock down
targets. The great weight also provides good wind resistance and is more efficient in the higher powered airgunsand the pre-charged pneumatics such as the Beeman Mako air rifle.
The head is very conical in shape, like a rounded point, providing outstanding aerodynamics.
Beeman Kodiak Match
Knowledgeable airgunners know that the Kodiak pellet already gets the most efficiency out of magnum power airguns, and gives the best power far down range at the targets that are out 50 yards and
beyond. This pellet is now available in selected, match lot marked batches for maximum accuracy. Dubbed the Kodiak Match, these pellets receive extra attention and care in manufacturing, have a
super smooth surface all over, and are selected by test firing each batch. Available in .177 and .25 calibers only.
Did they say "higher powered airguns"...unless I stand corrected, the Diana 48,52, and 54 ARE high powered side-levers...most consider them to be Magnums.
An interesting note:Diana of Germany is now offering a 52 Model called the "52 Superior" in that claims 140 fps over the other side lever in the line...walnut stock too....that would be
interesting to acquire in .22.....hummmm....now that gives me a thought! That number is....+49 (0) 72 22. 7 62 – 0 (converting Dollars to Euro frantically)
As for bad seals not affecting the longevity of mainsprings....well, as I stated, I defer to the INFINATE WISDOM of Mr. Jim Maccari - truly the "spring man" in this day and age, when he clearly
states on HIS website: "Without a good lockup and sealing you will just go through spring after spring..."
I remember Mr. Maccari from the old days when he tuned guns and, well, I wouldn't tell HIM that bad seals don't affect spring longevity....not early in the morning to be sure...(laugh)...and I have
never heard or seen him say "DO SHOOT HEAVY PELLETS" cause they'll kill my springs. He doesn't mention pellet weight anywhere on his site as would relate to spring wear, just bad seals and grinding
ends too shallow.
Diana of Germany (not Umarex) discribes the 54 in their catalog as follows:
Product Information Recoilless shooting: This provides a specially supported rebounding system. The fixed barrel rifle with side cocking lever has a match type trigger, automatic safety and additional cocking guard.. The hunting-style stock has a pronounced cheekpiece and fine checkered finish on the pistol handle and front stock.
As for the 54 not being recoilless, that is a mater of semantics; technically, anything that fires has recoil, but the stress on the internals is much different when an action has the ability to "float" and absorb a degree of "shock vibrations", a benefit for the internal workings of the gun as well as the shooter.
I called Diana in Germany for torque specs on a couple of guns that I was working on some time back, one of which was a 54 like the .22 that I own. I had a great and highly informative discussion
with one of their smiths and we talked about the internal stress on the 54's as some side thoughts...that is where my thoughts come from.
Besides, you and I have both shot them Tim so we both know that you can feel the recoil, but it IS dampened…mechanically dampened, less stress.
I guess the best thing to say in closing is that you have not only shot different 54s, you have had them stripped down as well...you know what they are like...that is the "pudd'en that holds the proof" right there!
I am not trying to convince you of anything....just offering information based on 25 yrs + of 1st hand experience. I just hate to see good people asking good questions and receiving inaccurate information or misinformation.
I STAND BY MY STATEMENTS AND I PUT MY MONEY WHERE MY MOUTH IS....the free spring offer still stands.
There is a difference between reading articles and rules on a website and actually consulting with those who do it. Those who compete in FT are now using CPs and JSBs in their spring guns. Kodiaks are too heavy for use in piston class FT. The idea is to get a flat as possible trajectory so as to not have make a lot of adjustments for range. Higher velocity is needed to get that flat trajectory, and lighter pellets are neccessary to keep the power within the ft/lb limitations, usually 17-20 fpe, but soon may be limited to 12 for advanced national in international events. The targets are set to fall at a predetermined weight, you don't need heavy pellets to knock them down. In addition, heavy pellets play havoc with the targets, and lighter pellets make for longer target life.
As for Beeman, see the references in previous posts. Don't believe anything you read from Beeman and half of what you see. Again, you need to do more than surf the web and look at sales pitches.
Once again, I must say if you're going to quote someone, don't take words out of context. Who said bad seals don't affect spring life?
Just because the shooter can't feel the recoil doesn't mean it doesn't happen. You just can't feel it. It has no bearing no how the internals react, and thats just the same as any other gun but without the benefit of a wood stock to absorb the energy of the recoil. The floating part just keeps the shooter from experiencing the jolt. The spring does what it does, no "floating action" will change the laws of physics.
But, it is impervious to hold issues. Longjevity in my opinion is not an issue as far as the gun itself goes. The sledge recoil function is adjustable to suit your particular needs. If its "loose" not many scopes will ever stand a chance. (more important mounts stand very little chance). I will never change my opinion on my 54/22. Not so much opinion, but based on hands on exp.! My 54 is my go to gun anytime I go on a serious hunting adventure. In totally stock form it has never let me down&consistantly shoots CP,s at 800-805 fps give or take a few. The Diana 54 is truly the "King", (Just my opinion) Sorry had to say this. Tim.
I think ya hit the bullseye!! That gun has your faith and confidence; little more can be asked of a gun in my opinion. I feel the same exact way about my 350s.
A gun that doesn't have the shooters faith and confidence...well...isn't a good gun for that shooter. When we have a gun that we feel good about, I honestly think we loosen ourselves up a bit and just SHOOT better.
Love your 54s Tim...their worth it!
I wish that we lived closer...would love to see your hunting grounds! Howa bout some pics of your favorite hunting spots!!
Hey Cutis Tim here, You got it! Gave Kimmie Sue 3 "chips" from my recently stolen game camera. She said she owes me! I will post soon. Yeah I wish we ALL lived close together,Man that would be great! In the meantime we are all as close as our keyboards!LOL! We are closer than you think my friend! Tim.
I can't wait to see the pictures....I'll post a couple too, but the desert is pretty much all the same, but I have a few good ones!
I DO feel close to some of the guys here, although I have not been here long enough to meet everybody.
You & Harry, Dave (ZVP), Duncan Idaho (Jay), rayburn11 (Ray)...you GENTLEMEN have all been very kind and polite and it is a pleasure to have the oppertunity to gather with you boys at this great site....I just wish that we could all organize a "day trip" of a hunt or an "over nighter". We could sit around the camp fire and tell lies and laugh! Sneak into tents late at night and pour pellets into somebody's boots. But best of all, to me, would be to take the field together in a line and see what we could find for dinner!
Thank Tim and all of the rest of you guys...if I forgot anybody in the acknowledgements, I sincerely apoligize!
Did we all sorta argue symantics or did I miss something in the posts?
This is what I got out of the thread per the longevity/reliability issues;
Squaring off a spring by grinding weakens it.
Bad fitting seals will cause it to fail very early.
Kodiaks have a very high bc and are very heavy pellets.
Harv
ps I don't think anyone at MAFTA is using Kodiaks for FT that I'm aware of. But I only make it out once or twice a year so... take it with a big ole grain of salt.
Tim, I can send you various pellets of ( "genuine" ) Diana pellets, some Haendler and Natermann pellets and of course a bottle of the best Dutch teflon spray to pamper this pellets before shooting them. Contact Warren for my e-mail adres or perhaps better is that you give me your home adress via Warren. I am sure we can solve your ".177 problems". Best regards from Johannis.
You are a true Gentelman.Thank you so much for such a kind offer of assistance. Alot goes on behind the scenes here,I for one know you are a one of akind special person.Thank you. Regards Tim. P.S Warren Ill call you later.
Recieved your E-Mail via Warren today. Nope, you are mistaken,I have my own little computer here at home. (Its my first computer& Im still learning more every day). Thank you so much for your kind offer. If I can ever help you in any way do not hesitate to ask. timmyj1959@yahoo.com Regards, Tim.
That number is....+49 (0) 72 22. 7 62 – 0 (converting Dollars to Euro frantically)