factory spring lenght 11" 1/4, JM spring 10"

factory shoots ave. 824.4, 10 shot's

JM kit GRT ave. 750.0, again 10 shot's

after honed chamber, piston end, spring ends, cocking arm pin, cocking track, main lube

lubed trigger, spring, piston and cleaned barrel bore

sighted at 20 yrds. 14.3 CP 822.0 fps


Well, well and again well. John did a heck of a job in 12 days from shipping and receiving it. I have a MAGNUM .22 cal shooting 822 fps, and a big thank you to John in PA

warren

PS: and all for $100, now who is a real tuner and friend?? and we have this asset in this forum





and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"

Hey John Tim in S.C. here. This is not the first,or second, but the third positive response I have personaly observed pertaining to your profesional tuning & turn around time. If I feel the need for a profesionall tune, I have 2 choices,,John in P.A. or M.Z. . John you like me are maybee looking at it as a small buisness (Im learning) I give you 4 Stars!! To anyone looking to get a tune on there new gun I will say this, John in P.A will help!! He is A rock as far as trust goes. I can attest to this first hand! Tim.

So if I understand correctly, you had installed the JM GRT kit and was getting 750fps. Then John tuned the gun with the GRT kit in it, and velocity increased to 822fps?

This means there had to be some imperfections inside the compression chamber cause you normally don't gain 70fps from a lube tune.

That is great! So how much smoother is it compared to before with the factory Diana spring? Are you still on the OEM piston seal? How is cocking effort, accuracy improvement, etc.? Any chims or mods to the breach seal?

Good job John!

Diana 350 Mag .22
Hammerli 850 .22
A few Crosman CO2 & Pump .177

with the JM GRT installed the air gun was shooting 750 fps. John called me and told me that when he got the 460 he chrony it @ 822 with OEM spring, "what did I want to do?" I told him a bought a MAGNUM air gun and to switch back the original spring

he did all the tune work and put back the OEM spring and it is shooting 824 fps (AVE.)

I do not know if the JM kit they sold me is the soft kit, maybe a confusion but the gun is a tad different. nothing was changed like breech seal, I just was lucky to get a good 460 from the beggining

warren

PS: A big thank you to JOHN from PA

and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"

Please forgive me, Sir, but I am a little confused. You had the JM kit installed, which is a much more advanced spring and guide system than the RWS correct? Did you not fire the gun yourself to see if it was a more precise shooting instrument? I own a Air Arms TK200 that shoots velocities of around 730. CP's at about that particular velocity. It would seem that the Macari spring was indeed a "better fit" for the RWS 460. With all due respect, why are you so concerned with the moniker "Magnum"? If a beautiful stallion, was finally trained to understand why his master applies a bit, would that not make him more pleasant ride? I have a few friends that own this 350 magnum. I would like to pass on the name of John from Pa. I think they would appreciate the more appropriate and governed speed of the 730 range for the 460. to that of the TK200 which as you know is know for as a highly rated field target gun as well as a splendid hunter. To increase the velocity of this masterful gun would be a total wreck if you may. I wish you well with your gun.

Auda

I did not write about the TK200, don't have the $$ or inclination on it. the 460 with the Diana spring was shooting at 800 ish fps, the JM GRT kit brought it down to 750 fps

the "Moniker" of a "Magnum" air gun is not mine, you will have to take this with Diana who has the rights to describe a Magnum, not warren

are you happy with your TK?? thaen I am glad you shoot 750 fps but I paid for a Magnum 460 not a Gamo

undertand where you are coming from but your taste's are completely different from mine

warren

PS: the gun was not increased with the JM GRT spring. it was DECREASED. it stayed the same with the Diana's spring and is still a 820 fps airgun, before and after

and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"

Warren
Do you not love the way the 460 shoots, at 25yrds and beyond.
At 30% gun its doing more than its part don't you think.
Mine is at 850fps no mods (what a gun) even compared to my HW77K
Enjoy your 460 warren, i do mine.
Ray

the 460 is in a class of it's own. it's just that others had problems with rheirs and I wanted to find out if I got the twin )brother or sister) they had

John at PA was answering my phone and E-mails all the time and convinced me I had a good 460

warren

PS: did I thank John before or should I thank him again, if I did then TIME to take my Meds. LOL

and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"

I will not speak for Warren, but why is it when someone has a British gun or a well tuned spring, he are told not to buy or use a Magnum 20+fpe springer? Just because there are smoother 16-17fpe guns out there like the TX200 or others, does that mean we should stay away from all the 22fpe guns? Warren has several mid-range powered or less powerful Magnum guns already. Sometimes people just want a powerful Magnum springer to add to their collection. There is nothing wrong with that. I don't base the purchase of my airguns on 0.10" or 0.15" better CTC groups. I don't care if a TX200 gets .25" groups at 25yds compared to a 350 that gets 0.34" (Tom Gaylord's '06 test of a 350 .22 with Benjamin domed). I have less powerful guns that get 0.25" groups, but if I want a more powerful field hunting gun for larger small game out to 50yds, I 'll pick up the 350 on my way out if I so chose.

If someone is looking for a 730-750fps velocity gun there are several options out there. If it's 20-22fpe they are looking for, then there is the 460, 350, and a couple of others. Why should one convert his 21-22fpe gun to a 17fpe one when the main reason they bought it was for its unique power? I 'm not saying you can't bring down small game with a 17fpe gun, but 5fpe is 5fpe. That sometimes is worth keeping the gun as is and opt for another gun if you want 17fpe. For the same reason I will not ask you why not opt for a smoother 12fpe gun instead of your 17fpe TX200.. because of that 5fpe that enables you to take game farther out and more humanely. Same with 22fpe vs. 17..

Well said again Harv.
Ray

Darn key B.
Sorry Harry

Auda; if I wanted a TX200, I would buy a Bam 40, exact copy of the TX for 1/3 of the price but would still get 750 fps

but I like the 800-900 fps airguns, takes a lot more to synchronize yourself to it but tastier than the sweet 750 fps and in .22

warren

PS: no hard feeling's Auda, I hope??

and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"

Seriously Guys,dont fall for that,maybee Warren missed his "meds"?? Like myself,Warren may have some problems,Unlike myself,for him money aint one of them!! Warren is LOADED! Dont fall for it!! Sorry Buddy for speaking the "truth". Tim.

My 48 .22 with GRT does 800's with utter smoothness - is the now tuned 460 better for that much more $ ?

The B40 .22 with factory parts and lube tune only is pushing 800+ with the same utter smoothness .

Magnums ? Not by todays standards . Needed ...nope . Both will be detuned anyway because I have firearms that will do 850+fps much more efficiently and just as(if not more)accurately.I find placing the shot precisely is more important than the roughly 3 to 3.5 fpe difference 825 fps gives over 750 fps.

Enjoy your 460, Warren.

Mr. Warren, I find your statement "Auda; if I wanted a TX200, I would buy a Bam 40, exact copy of the TX for 1/3 of the price but would still get 750 fps", very amusing to say the least. Please, it defines a lot about your character, soul and knowledge about air guns. I do believe your sincerity, in the respect that your assessment that a Bam rifle would be more suited for your taste, and skill, as compared to a Air gun TX200. I do thank you for your opinion, as you have answered a very important dialog with my friends.

Auda

Sirens and bells are calling for Mr. Russ..

Mr. Auda has attacked Warren's character. There are other ways to voice one's opinion on a TX200 vs. B40, rather than a personal attack on someone.

You might want to take some action here Russ or Dave..

Russ!!, is this really necessary? For your sake, I take back all my opinions. I apologize to Russ, Warren, Harry, Krick, and all. My mistake. Harry, you are very right. May God bless you. I hope you have many happy days of shooting and a good life. Please forgive my intrusion into your forum. Auda. I will delete my account on this forum. so do not worry the administrators any more. It is done.

Nice reply Auda. Sorry Warren. Nice to see you here Rick! Miss you as a regular here. Hope all is well. Please keep posting here. I look up to you as one of the "4 H,ers"here. Life deals us at times many hard blows,the strong like us survive!! Great to see your post Rick! If you ever want to talk,E-Mail me. Tim. timmyj1959@yahoo.com

I still come around - just too tired to really add much . Obviously i should give up on airguns because my B40's are pretty da$%^% for the money . Not quite up to snooty standards ,but can hold their own on target. Warren mentions getting a B40 instead of an AirARMs TX and suddenly the B40 is uncouthe . I'm pig slop gutter sewage in that regard then because I actually chose to buy one.
I could have had a TX !!...dopey me

Harry S, With all due respect, whom are you trying to convince? The RWS magnum in America is nothing but a marketing gimmick. Why do you take a really great gun and insist on a "stretched spring" to justify some out of control power? The gun was not designed to propel a pellet at that velocity, without some type of misbehavior. Do you believe that the RWS engineers are not sulking because the Americans caved into this fallacy of "BIGGER IS BETTER" mentality? I know for a fact they are. The 350. is a great gun, built on a great platform of previous guns. I feel sorrow for the great gun smiths that have to turn over a great gun for American power lust addicts. Why not just buy a 25.cal? Designed by experts?

Auda

Auda
Where are you coming from i do beleive in our country it are choice to what we buy. I would not think of telling you other wise. I think my 460 is a great gun
all the way around, its what i wanted and what i paid for. When you start paying for my guns then you can tell me what to buy or is needed.
Ray

American power lust adddict Never been called that before, But when you say AMERICAN YOU MUST BE TALKING TO ALL OF US? I take it you dont care for are kind?
I think i will leave it at that you should to.

It is unfortunate that purveyors of airguns here in the US have chosen a marketing stategy of bigger=faster=better, implying that all you need is more power and anyone can shoot a gnats eye out at 50 yards regardless of ability. The good Dr Beeman started pushing this sales tactic back in the 1970s, and it is a primary reason he stopped selling Diana rifles and turned to Weihrauch and FWB. The engineers at Dianawerks wouldn't put up with his BS power is everything sales gimmick, so Doc Beeman effectively blackballed Diana rifles here in the US, degrading them at every opportunity. Ever since they have been the underdog, only fairly recently entering the power race.

Magnumitis is a common affliction among those fairly new to airguns here in the US, a direct result of this marketing pitch. However, those who have been around airguns long enough know better hopefully. All you need to do is look at the classifieds listing. The majority of rifles for sale are the so called magnum springers, with ads usually reading something like this- 850 fps wonder gun for sale, only fired a few times, like new, etc. Ever wonder why such a high turn-around rate?
Over the last 50 or so years, Diana and others have made many hundreds of thousands of lower power guns. How many Diana 27s, HW35s, Webley Vulcans or whatever do you ever see listed among the used 25 fpe wunderwaffen that are lined up to be sold to the next inexperienced newbie? I wonder why?
For that matter, for those who would say that 20 or even 30 fpe is neccessary for hunting, consider the fact that far more game has been taken by sub-15 fpe guns in the last 50 years than any so-called magnum guns. Crosman, Sheridan and Benjamin rifles making 12-13 fpe have certainly the most prolific game-getters ever. Millions of rabbits and squirrels have fallen to the youth of America using those classic pump-up guns, and not one of them complained that the guns didn't have enough power. Furthermore, if you can't make the 50 yard shot with 15 fpe, you probably can't do it with 25 either. Thats got more to do with ability on the shooters part than the power of the gun.

As far as tuning goes, it is what it is. Too many new to springers equate a good tune with a power increase. Its not that simple. Tuning a spring gun has less to do with power and more to do with balancing the parts to work better, producing a smoother, more accurate rifle thats easier to shoot. Many of todays uber-springers are over-sprung monstrosities, and need to be powered down a bit to shoot well. JMs springs and tune kits are about the best you can get, and his products are the result of years of experience. If his tune kit produces a certain level of power in a certain gun, its probably because he has determined thats the power level the gun is best suited for.

Harry Im Pissed! I back you up 100%! I have made alot of friends here& I get pretty stired up on personal atacks against my friends. Even amongst us here we may not always agree on airgun issues. As I said before Im open minded to all airguns. I pick no favorites,&hope to not be judged by any preferance I may show. Warren is a TRUE FRIEND of mine& I make no apoligys for that. Auda, Dont attack my friends. Take your meds. & check back monyana. Sorry Warren, You warned me, I DONT listen! Im my own Man. I made this post,not you! Dont attack my friends! Sorry,Tim.

Did not mean to attack your friends Tim. Just thought it was a friendly debate. If you read my post above this one, you will see that I am depleting my new account. I feel some true prejudice here, no offense. You are a true leader. Thank you Sir.
Auda

Tim here,Snooty?Not! Pig slop? Not! Ive been there my friend! PLEASE e-mail me Rick. I know more than you think?? Tim. Give me a shot,, timmyj1959@yahoo.com We can talk about our "China" clunkers!! LOL. Your friend Tim.

Sometimes we get "stirred" up here. Sorry to come down on you so hard. You obviously are a true airgunner at heart. Sometimes posts are misunder stood. I made some posts here to "Missys Dad" that were completely wrong. It took a while before he came back. I dont want to be the reason behind you leaving us here. Im sorry to jump on you. Lets start over OK?? Tim. P.S Have not heard from Missys Dad in a while ?? Tim.

..was going,and it seems to have gone crazy!I,ll say this,I,ve owned or still own every rifle that has been talked about in this arguement and there should be no arguement.All of these guns have there own built and designed pupose.The TX-200 is a great rifle usually right out of the box,but you pay alot for that quality.The B-40 is a copy for 1/3 of the TX cost.Out of the box most are okay but not up to TX quality.In the hands of a tuner they can be made to be very close and still come in cheaper than a TX-200.The 460 is not even classified in the same class as the Tx or B-40 because it is a true Magnum springer.When you put the 460 in the magnum class it should be compared to the Patriot,Kodiak,RX-2,RX-1 and the 350.In this class it truely shines because it is accurate,not hold sensitive,not a scope killer and is fairly easy to shoot freehand because of it,s design.
Last night my buddy and I went to the indoor range after our meeting at the Sportsmans club.He had along the fully Maccari tuned TX-200 that I sold him and I took my 460.At thirty yards we were shooting comparible tight groups but that does,nt make our rifles the same.That was on the bench rest.When we practiced our freehand shooting at thirty yards it was evident which rifle was more suited for the challenge.If I wanted to shoot target at thirty or forty yards I,d take my Pro Sport or fully tuned B-40.If I wanted to drop a full grown ground hog at forty or fifty yards I,d use my 460 and try to find a prop.

This is what I wanted to talk about when I came on here awhile ago.First I tore down his rifle after chronying it.It was in the mid 820,s with an occasional 830.No lube inside the rifle besides a small amount of molly on the piston seal.Polished and buffed all internals and polished up the JM spring ends and lubed it.With the JM kit the rifle had a more gentle firing cycle,easier to cock and less felt recoil.750fps is still a very powerful rifle and when the CP,s smashed into my steel spinners at twenty and thirty yards you would have sworn it was hotter than 750.I believe also like Dave that this is where JM believes this gun fires and behaves best.It did feel like a totally different rifle with this tune.When I talked to Warren we decided that he orderd a 460 Magnum and he wanted as much magnum as he could get.I then took the gun back down and polished and buffed the stock spring and anything else I could think of to give it a smoother feel while still shooting over the 800 fps mark.I think it turned out well because I can feel the difference between his 460 and mine.I have,nt gotten around to putting a full tune on my own yet,go figure!
What I did find with Warrens rifle was a very rough texture inside of the compresion tube.The whole foremost 1/3 of the tube was a different color and texture.I honed it until it cleared up and became smooth.Also the day before I sent it back to him I pulled it down one more time and polished the whole cocking groove and the slide that the cocking arm attaches to because it just felt gritty.You should really try to pull sraight down on the cocking arm because side pressure seems to really wear the slide against the groove.

fitted pins and cocking shoe would really prevent that side movement.

Now thats some funny chit right thar , I don't care who ya are!

More funny still ...I just pulled a BKL for an Accushot ! Scope optically re-centered ...no windage or elevation adjustment needed. dead nuts on 10 shots into .296" at 10m . I suck because it was a benched and bagged group.T'ja! them B40's is bad news.

Im sorry I was such a jerk to a newcomer here.Please forgive me. You must understand I have made many close friends here& I am quick to defend them. I made this mistake before w/ Missys Dad I regretted that to this day. Tim.

The RWS magnum in America is nothing but a marketing gimmick. Why do you take a really great gun and insist on a "stretched spring" to justify some out of control power?

WRONG and WRONG

#1 wrong - The marketing gimick

Look Auda, we have different laws in the US concerning guns AND airguns when compared to many places in the rest of the world......plus we hunt in different physical and geographical conditions and situations....and we hunt different game under those same conditions. My Diana 350 Mags in .22 cal are tuned to Magnum and SuperMagnum specs and they are NOT as harsh as most Factory Fresh Diana 350 Mags that I have shot (and I have shot a BUNCH of ‘em)…AND, and at 50 yards, standing up shooting “off hand”, I can hit the bottom of a soda pop can every single time, most of that is leaving a BIG ragged hole after 20 shots…the inner bottom of a Coke can IS my “clean kill zone” on Pigeons, Jack Rabbits, and Coyote at up to 50+ yards.

I had two TX series guns in .22 cal - a TX200MkIII and a Pro Sport....both were GREAT guns for what they were designed for...accuracy and smoothness….the workmanship was excellent too!

I sold both of them as neither gun was capable of doing what I needed them to do when hunting. Here in the desert, most shots are over 40+ yards (closer to 50+ yds) because the desert is FLAT between the hills....flat like a plate….tens of miles of flatness OR MORE in some places....most of the time when hunting Jack Rabbits or Coyotes, you just don't have the cover to hide behind and/or stalk through...you are standing in a flat and wide-open space where the animal can see you as good or better than you can see HIM.

At those distances without the power of a magnum or super-magnum, you just can't count on a clean and humane kill, even in .22 cal with a head shot between the eye and ear.

SO now what...should I buy a PCP gun....well, I have two...both .22 magnums by even PCP power standards....guess what...it TOTALLY SUCKS when you run out of air and are 45 min to a couple of hours away from a refill back at the truck or van....that is a LONG WALK for a refill of air....come and walk the desert with me and you'll find out how it is....Ya know, I like to pop a few shots when the hunting is poor and even when it is not....thus the NEED for magnum and SuperMagnum spring guns that need nothing more than cocking to shoot!

#2 wrong - stretched springs

To increase power in a spring gun, springs are NOT stretched, they are spaced and parts are used to make them more efficient - rear guides and tophats.

My tunes that I do on magnum and SuperMagnum spring guns don't make them too harsh to shoot...that would be stupid.

You can tune a magnum spring gun to be smooth and still maintain or even peak over OEM power...

You can tune for SuperMagnum power and purposely design custom parts that will reduce the "expected harshness" close to that of how the OEM gun shot.

--------------------------------------------

So Aruda, if your TX is working for you and doing what you want in a way that you want things done, then I am honestly and sincerely happy for you...after all, a gun that does NOT shoot the way that the owner wants it to is horrible, but PLEASE remember, that your needs do not reflect the needs of all gun owners in all countries.

My girlfriend is laughing and just spoke up to say that the TX 200 would be considered HARSH, over powered, with a terrible trigger, and lacking in the ungodly amount of user-definable adjustments of a 10 meter gun IF it was taken to the Olympics for a 10 meter shoot.

Her Blue and Black Aluminum Feinwerkbau 700 is an Olympic quality gun that set me back over $3000...she stacks pellets one on top of another through 1 hole at 10 meters….she is highly skilled in HER type of shooting and her GUN is built specifically for that purpose and nothing else...but she can't kill a Pigeon on the top of our roof at 55+ yards...hit them, but not kill them.

Every gun has their place in this world...even a $30 hunk-o-junk for the little kids to pop around with...

If people only knew THEIR place...

-Curtis


PS...think I am going to start a new string on Maccari springs and loss of power, magnum tunes (power vs. smoothness), how a spring works inside of a spring gun, ....you know, the usual stuff...

Absolutley no text from me! Tim.(yoe simity Sam!)LOL!

by all means inform everyone of THEIR places...

But,,If the boss is not watching, I will climb up a few rungs on the ladder! LOL.! Tim.

Yes, if people knew their place...

In light of what I have read on these sites for years and based on what I have had to listen to in the past from passers-by and customers alike, I am not going to apologize for, re-write, retract, redact, or revise my choice of words in that assertion.

Asking questions or making a statement that includes my favorite phrase "correct me if I'm wrong BUT..." is one thing, but making very firm and well defined assertions which are based on pure ASSUMPTIONS and SPECULATION and a lack of functioning knowledge about the subject is quite another.

I NEVER speak of shooting "field target" as I know so VERY little about that aspect of airgunning, and I would be out of my place and out of line if I were to start making assertions, with authority, about the needs, equipment or techniques that FT shooters use.

What little I know of 10 meter competition shooting I have learned from my girlfriend and still, I know very little about that discipline. I would be out of my place and out of line if I were to start making assertions about the equipment those shooters use and their shooting techniques. I understand their guns and the theories behind their gun configurations and tunes because of my background, but I am not going to go up to the Gun Tech for the US Olympic 10m Team and start telling them how to re-valve the gun for once again, I would be out of my place and out of line.

One person swears that such-N-such a factory gun will shoot to exacting FPS specs based on the manufacturer's claims without ever having shot that stock factory gun through a chrony to test those claims is ridiculous.

One person swears that a Maccari spring was installed in such-N-such a factory MAGNUM gun and the power dropped off....what is never mentioned is what amounting of spacing was added (or NOT added) when that Maccari spring was installed, and was a new rear guide and tophat included with the spring installation which was custom fabricated so as to be "fitted" to that exact spring. Maccari springs, as Jim himself clearly states, are generally NOT designed to be an OEM "drop-in" replacement. JM states that in most instances, spacing will be required when installing his springs to bring the gun into the shooter's desired specs.

One person claims that he doesn't even need to shoot the bird, he just blinds them with the laser sight that he just installed and the bird's brain cooks from the inside out and it just falls off the branch, dead and ready to eat.

Question are great...that is how people learn IF they are provided correct information. But to make assertions that are not technically accurate and then defend them to the bitter end is too much for me to see and not address...


Sincerely,

-Curtis


PS....In keeping with the original topic of this string, I wish to hail John in PA for the tune on warren's 460.

He did the tune and took notes and acquired solid numbers.

He contacted his client with a progress report

Client indicated that he wanted MAGNUM power out of his MAGNUM gun and John pulled the gun apart again and re-fit an OEM spring again to bring the gun into the client's requested power range.

That is EXACTLY how tunes should be approached and completed.
We tune for the client's needs, not for our own...

Very well done John!

PS...think I am going to start a new string on Maccari springs and loss of power, magnum tunes (power vs. smoothness), how a spring works inside of a spring gun, ....you know, the usual stuff...

Given the nature of your posts, that should be shall we say interesting at least.
If you hunt large game such as coyote at 50+ yards, you should not be using a spring gun, period. Use the proper weapon, either a large bore PCP or firearm thats actually made for hunting. This is exactly what Auda is referring to- the fact the airgun sellers have hyped spring guns up so as to make buyers believe that they are just as powerful as firearms and are suitable replacements. You can not tune out the harsh recoil of a so-called super magnum springer, the spring does what it does and the spring recoil is a fact of life. "Super magnum" sprngs practically guarantee that the seal will be over-powered and there will be piston rebound. Its going to be a harsh shooter, period.

Wow, you guys have really been going at it, almost sorry I had to work tonight and missed the "chat". I'm going to side up with Warren and the guys, I want my Magnums to be real Magnums, just like I want my 75 to be a real 75, or my 24 to be a real 24. All of them are what they are, with their own quirks and characteristics. All benefit from some modification, but I could no more imagine trying to turn my 75 into a hunting rifle than I could imagine turning my 460 into a 10 meter gun. They each have different roles to play and I just want them each to play that role as well as they can. Many guns can perform well in dual capacities. My FWB 124 is a fine example of this, and the 34/36/45 or 48/52 guns have proven this for years, excellent accuracy in a hunting configuration. Not a first choice for 10 meter accuracy or for pure knock down power, but, a nice balance of the two. My advice is to accept the gun for what it is, make it what it can be, and use it for what it's intended. The right tool makes the job easier, fill up your tool box.

Older is Better

P.S. Tim, when was I mad at you and why? Don't recall and don't care, get this other guy back in here, sounds like he may have some insight. Hate to lose a new guy that may have something to add, at my age I need all the insight I can get.

Don't pick up your marbles and run home just because someone here pi..ed you off, it's just the nature of us "power hungry" Americans. Undo that knot in your panties and get back into the forum. We love our 20+ FPE springers because, unlike most of the rest of the world, we're allowed to have them. No special permit or goverment license required yet. It's quite a challenge to hang on to a 20+ FPE springer at 60 yards and shoot it accurately, does things that a 12 FPE gun just can't do.

and well written Curtis, as usual.

Also well said Missy's dad. This is what I 've been trying to say on every thread that critisized and questions why people own Magnum springers. There is a gun for every occasion and taste and to be used for different purposes.

I bought a large Magnum Springer, the 350 .22, for hunting purposes only and to use it at longer ranges 35-50+yds. For shorter distances I try to use a 12ft-lb .22 gun and even then I restrict my self to squirrels and smaller animals and birds. I choose to shoot full grown 10-15lb grounhogs, crows, etc. with my 350 and will be going racoon (full grown 20+lbs) hunting in the fall when hunting season starts again. I 'd love to have a stuffed one in my new game room that I 'm starting. The main thing is to have enough power to bring them down humanely and quickly with one shot. Every gun has its purpose and uses and the 350/460 fit the bill extremely well with the larger small game that one might be after down range. In another forum a very experienced hunter had to shoot a very large >20lb racoon 3-4 times I recall with his (~14ft-lb) R9 .22 from 20yds out. He owns approximately 30 airguns and did not anticipate running into a racoon that day. First 3 shots were to knock it off the tree and then finished off with another head shot when it was on the ground. I like to do the same with 1 shot and make it as quick as possible. If I happen to see or get close to a coyote or fox within 25-30yds next Fall/winter, you bet I will shoot it right between the eyes or between eye and ear if it presents a broadside opportunity. At that distance a 21gr Kodiak or CP pellet strikes with 17-18FPE of kinetic energy, more than enough to do the job as many others have done the same with 20+FPE springers. If I can hit squirrels at 30yds with head or chest shots on open sights with the 350, I would have no trouble hitting the mark with a coyote at the same distance, scope or no scope. It's all about knowing how your gun shoots and your abilities to use that gun properly by practicing a lot and getting good at it. That is a hunter's responsibility. A hunter that cannot use or shoot their gun properly is an irresponsible one.

Magnums can be made to shoot a little smoother with a better more efficient shot cycle by maintaining OEM power with the proper tune incorporating more spacing and using better durable heavy duty custom seals and guides. It's rubbish to think or comment that if you don't want to use a 12 to 17fpe smooth springer for hunting, then you must use a large bore PCP or a powder burner. Why everyone that owns a medium-powered gun always tries to convince others that their 20+FPE guns are useless, I will never comprehend. The same goes for those implying it's of no use to tune a Magnum or Ultra Magnum springer. Drives me nuts.
Ultra-Magnum springers bring down small and large size small game more quickly and humanely at longer distances than your medium powered Magnums. It's just a fact and the laws of physics.

And to stay on topic good job John for accomodating your customer's wishes!

Hey Auda, do you even own a Diana? All we 've seen you talk about is your AA TX200. Afterall this is a Diana forum. We try to stay open minded here, be friendly, and usually welcome discussions about all guns, but when we are put down and critisized about some of the guns we own and are told they are no good with some other colorful adjectives used, we cannot help it but get a little defensive, you understand. No need for you to leave. You can voice your opinion as long as you don't provoke people.

BTW Dave (or Auda), quick question. Rick does have a JM kit in his 48 and it still shoots low 800's w/14.3gr pellets which makes it maintain Magnum status and claims it's a much smoother shooter. Did he waste his time on that particular tune? Just curious what you base your comments on..

Those guns are often known a scope killers. A better spring/seal/guide combination will take care of that problem. I have a 54 with a JM monolith kit in it, it shoots far better than a stock gun does. its shooting at about 820 give or take, but you'd never know it. Why? Because it was designed properly for that specific gun. You can't just space up a spring to fit a particular gun and call it tuned, or add a spacer to an OEM spring and say you've given it a power tune. These are recipes for poor performance and short spring life. In addition, its not that magnums can't be tuned (check the definition on that, tune does not equal power) but if a gun has a heavy recoil at its factory power level and all else is right with the gun- seal intact and working etc- it going to recoil hard no matter what else you do if you intend to maintain that power level. You can add guides to remove spring noise, tophats, spacers or what have you, but in the end the gun still kicks hard because that was an unintended result of the design. The 48/52/54 generally responds well to a seal/spring guide upgrade because the factory components are a weak link in the design. Quite often the piston seals are poorly fit, and the factory springs in those guns generally don't last too long .

If you're going to quote somebody, do it right, don't take bits out of context. What I clearly referred to was using a spring rifle to hunt coyote and other large anumals at 50 or more yards. I don't know what passes for a coyote in your town, but here they are generally about 40 lbs, and I've seen more than a few taken at 60 lbs. No way I would try that at 50 yards with any spring gun. And a head shot between the eyes? All you'll do is get him mad. At 25 yards, you'll be glad you have that 10 pound single-shot gun with you, it'll make a right handy club when he comes after you.
Furthermore, as far as taking game quickly, power is not and should not ever be the prime consideration. Shot placement is. My 70 year old Crosman can drop a squirrel from a tree just a sure as the newest whiz-bang uber rifle. it doesn't make any difference how fast the pellets goes through, it what the pellet goes through that counts.

I've stayed out of this as long as possible. Dave/Arathol is addressing the main focal point here. Accuracy. Its all that counts.

The important points I've made on other threads is that high fpe doesn't matter if the shooter can't hit what the shooter is aiming at. If the shooter wants a factory magnum rifle to perform at the highest possible fpe, then have at it. I'm guessing that those shooters are more interested in the chrony numbers than in shooting longer ranges accurately. Maybe popping cans or something is more what they're after and that's ok.

Here's the crux of the matter.

What I haven't seen discussed is someone writing that such and such magnum air rifle (of any brand) hit, say a woodchuck, at seventy five yards with pinpoint and perfect accuracy and that chuck lumbered off from the stinging sensation right behind its ear. That if that magnum air rifle just had another fifty to a hundred more fps that chuck would be in a pic posted all over the internet airgun forums. Or at the very least the story itself would be shared enthusiastically.

My personal hunting rule has been that if I can keep my shots inside an inch I can hunt effectively at that range. If I go outside an inch I ought to be moving in. With wind, steadiness etc I have a hard time keeping my own rules but at least its a reasonable goal. I still have some magnum springers by the way. Personally I try to judge my airguns on my ability to be dead nuts accurate with them.

The focus of this discussion has remained planted solely on whether a rifle marketed as a magnum should be at magnum power. You guys are right. It should. On that I have no argument.

Harv

Hey Harv,Could you do me a favor? Please post again your above post, but in the left of the screen enter TIM?? LOL! Sweet & to the point Harv,case closed. Tim.

Tim, give me a ring. Talk airguns or bikes or whatever.

Harv

"IF PEOPLE ONLY KNEW THEIR PLACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" How dare you! Just where the hell is HIS PLACE? AT THE BACK OF THE BUS? No Curtis, please I understand that You would not "retract your statement", of course you would not. That IS your character.

seems like it is time to move on.

Good topic though.

Russ S.