Some brands of pellets were “loose” or “very loose” in the barrel, for example, I have 2 boxes of CP’s, wherein the pellets usually tend to fall out of the barrel of my gun when cocking, (this includes some other brands as well). I used a small conical plastic wall anchor with an improvised taped “handle” to seat them (means pushing a pellet into the barrel by a uniform amount every time). I’m sure the small plastic conical wall anchor works just as well as the seating side of the Beeman “Pell Seat”.
Above is a notation I made on my pellet brand test sheet four days ago.
The Beeman Pell-Seat sells for about $15.00 + shipping at PA. My old-school philosophy dictates that if it’s really, really simple yet ridiculously expensive-then improvise.
The two boxes of cp’s which I had set aside weeks ago, as too troublesome because of breech drop-out, proved to be the most accurate and reliable brand pellets I have tested to date, generally grouping too close to count 6 individual holes.
It never ceases to amaze this rookie, how simple improvisations on springers can lead to such dramatic results.
The ball point pen housing I tried (minus the pen), was great for press flaring slightly deformed skirts, but then wouldn’t give me uniform insertion.
BB Pelletier say’s he uses the small end of an Allen wrench.
I guess you could use the ball point like the ball end of the pell-set tool (when needed), and something else for insertion. What I’m doing now is just putting the deformed ones in a seperate tin for later determination.
side and under levels use the BB Pelletier method on break barrel's you can use the Beeman Pell or the Bic method
on my 48 the CP's flare skirt surrounds the breech and when fired leaves tiny lead deposits in the outside housing this is a fact with all CP's in the 48
on the 460, the *&%*$ breech swallows the pellet (let's say snug) compared to the 48 and I have no problems
now the 34 is tight and allows me to experiment and push the pellet with the plastic Bic. I see no difference between ramming them or just pushing hard until they seated well into the breech with break barrels
the magic of the CP is the metal composition of them the skirts are a little bit HARDER than other brands
warren
PS: just wish those flyers did not exist, maybe there are GREMLINs' at Crosman LOL
and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"
We're starting to talk different guns and possibly different calibers.
I only have the one 350 in .22, so I guess you could call my little gizmo "custom made".
These are the brands I have found to be "loose" or "very loose" so far:
Crosman Premiers 14.3
Gamo Hunter 15.3
JSB Diablo Exact 15.8
JSB Diablo Straton 15.9
Crosman Copperhead
Field Hunting Pointed 14.3
<on my 48 the CP's flare skirt surrounds the breech and when fired leaves tiny lead deposits in the outside housing this is a fact with all CP's in the 48>
This does not sound good! This can't possibly be good for either the precision breech fittings or accuracy!
You definitely need a tool to push these pellets down into the barrel, if you are going to use them.
I also have used the pell seat I paid $5.95
for it 24 years ago, have used several ball pointed pens and other devices
that fell on hand. what always frustrates me was having to go find something.
I have devised another system to smooth the skirt.
I shoot left handed, I used an old leather glove for my right hand took a piece of leather about 2"x 1" long and punched a small hole in the center dropped a ball bearing centering it over the hole, applied contact cement to both
the piece of leather and the the palm side of my thumb, wait for the glue to dry
then press both pieces together the leather expands over the bearing-let it dry over night.
Now I've got a pellet skirt smoother that is readily available without having to look for some appendage. I'm terribly forgetful ya know lay that pen somewhere and takes me a while to find it.
I find that deep seating pellets past the radius of the chamber does not yield good accuracy for most of the rifles in which I have tried.
>>I find that deep seating pellets past the radius of the chamber does not yield good accuracy for most of the rifles in which I have tried.<<
Sylvan
Hehe..ye olde ball bearing in the leather glove trick.
Man, talk about innovative!
You know, (your quote above) that is interesting. Could it be that such a thing is pellet/gun specific? The Crosman Premiers are working extremely well with uniform seating of about 1” into the bore on my 350.
I’ve been so “wowed” by the cp’s that I haven’t had a chance to test my other "loose" brands.
Of course, I don’t seat pellets that fit the bore properly (yet).
we are going into minut details of the pellets' underground world here
there is such thing as "pellet/gun/specific, even on the same model air guns
"seating past the radius" deformes the skirt to the initial roundness of the breech and does not allow the skirt to adhere properly as it travels throgh the barrel, you take 5% efficiency out of the pellet with this method at least that is my observation with my 48 in .22 cal with CP's
warren
and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"
I agree totally.
Some barrels have larger diameters,some pellets are under sized some are over sized, thus an accurate combination takes time,
if one truely wants the ultimate accuracy then buy match pellets, note the lot number, shoot them if they are what that rifle likes then buy as much as you can. cause the next lot is not gonna be the same.
"seating past the radius" has always produced flyers for me.
Smoothing the skirt on the other hand has produced pellets that
do not get crushed by the standing breech while closing it on break barrels, on underlevers it is less of a problem due to the seal making first contact with the pellet, at least in my experience with a HW77.
I smooth the the back of the skirt on cheap pellets, shooting JSB pellets the choice of diameters is wide in .177
4.48,4.49,4.50,4.52,and 4.53. Crosman can't match that.
I also think H&N has different diameters.
I am no competitor, so my main stay Pellet is the"Hobby"
and Meisterkugeln. these are larger than domestic brands
seem to do ok by me.
C’mon Warren, let’s not confuse “observation” with pre-disposed “bias”. What the heck does “effectiveness” mean?
What instrument did you use to determine a 5% drop in pellet “effectiveness” when seated in the bore?
Did you try pushing a breeched pellet through the bore with a cleaning rod as opposed to a seated pellet, and then compare the two microscopically?
Did you chrony an average 5% drop in pellet fps when the pellet was seated by 1” or less?
Did you note a negative 5% target group change when shooting?
How does “seating past the radius” [deform] “the skirt to the initial roundness of the breech and does not allow the skirt to adhere properly as it travels throgh the barrel”?
WHAT? Seating a pellet deforms it differently than the gasses doing the same thing?
Ctruth,
I think that when you push the pellet in with a tool you deform
both skirt and ogive of the pellet, the piston compressing air
really does a better job in pushing that pellet down the bore
engraving the rifling in a uniform pattern.
Best explanation book:The air gun from Trigger to Target. by GV
and GM Cardew. Good book.
the barrel pages 84-85. That will explain why pushing the pellet
in the bore really under sizes an already undersized pellet.
I noticed that your shooting a .22 JSB also makes different
diameters for .22 pellets 5.00, 5.50, and 5.52 try some.
German pellets such as RWS and H&N are also larger in diameter.
Granted they are more expensive than CPS you get what you pay for.
I do not have access to the book “The air gun from Trigger to Target. by GV
and GM Cardew”
But here are two interesting opposing opinions:
Tom Gaylord's Tips: Volume 2
By Tom Gaylord
Seating pellets
When seating pellets in the barrel of an airgun, get the base of the pellet beyond the end of the bore. If you don't do that, the air blast will hammer the bas of the pellet against the back of the barrel and create a restriction. In some guns, the pellet will simply not exit the bore. It the AirForce rifles, the pellet will hold the air valve open and exhaust all the air in the reservoir. Many guns have a bolt that pushes the pellet past the end of the barrel for you, so you don't have to think about it. But if you are putting the pellet directly into the barrel yourself, always seat it deeper than the end.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From The Airgunner
Pellet seating
Do you own one of those gorgeous little Beeman pellet seating tools? I do. It was one of the first accessories I bought after buying my first quality air rifle, a Beeman R7. The pellet seating tool is well made, it’s attractive, and it’s pretty cheap. Years ago a lot of “experts” recommended using it to push a pellet into a barrel until it engaged the rifling for best accuracy. Let’s see why that might not be the best advice.
Imagine a loaded spring air gun at the moment of firing. The piston, propelled by the mainspring, is compressing the air in the compression chamber, transfer port and barrel into a smaller and smaller volume. The pressure is building up behind the pellet, until there’s a high enough pressure to overcome the friction and inertia of a stationary pellet. As the piston reaches the end of its travel, the buildup of pressure slows it down a bit, until, ideally, the pellet begins moving just as the piston comes to a stop.
Now suppose instead of placing the pellet right at the breech, you slid it all the way up to the muzzle. As the piston forces air into the barrel, there’s a large volume of air to be compressed, so pressure doesn’t build up as high, and the piston isn’t slowed down as it reaches the end of its travel. The piston slams into the end of the compression chamber, and the pellet has just enough pressure to pop out of the end of the barrel with very little energy.
Now suppose you load the gun again, and this time you only slide the pellet halfway down the barrel. Lower air volume, higher pressure, and more energy extracted form the spring. Now load it again, and push the pellet just a quarter way down the barrel. And again, pushing it just an eighth of the way…
You see where this is going, The closer the pellet is to the breech, the higher the pressure, and the more energy is extracted from the spring. Pellets should be loaded just far enough so that the skirt is flush with the breech.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Interesting. Many guns do have bolts that push the pellet beyond the end of the barrel. On the other hand, the Airgunner article makes sense too.
"pellets should be loaded just far enough so that the skirt is flush with the breech"
if not air will get in between the pellet and barrel (very small amount) as it spins and tears parts of the skirt. you need a tight seal between the skirt and the barrel anything that modifies this mechanical system will produce havoc in the accuracy
I was talking about my 48 and Crosman CP's, no other air guns but this abnormality with placing X or Y way of a pellet in the breech will give you DIFFERENT results, might have to try other brands of pellets with my 48
Gaylord, was refering to pneumatics like pumpups and co2 not Spring Pistons in that article..
From the air gunner:
that article basically reinforces Warren and my convictions.
You see where this is going, The closer the pellet is to the breech, the higher the pressure, and the more energy is extracted from the spring. Pellets should be loaded just far enough so that the skirt is flush with the breech.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Push pellet past the " flush with the breech" and bad juju happens in Spring Pistons and only in Spring pistons.
works fine in Co2, Pcp,pump ups.
Going back to the ball point pen housing (they fall out without any type of pressing), with the pen housing they are inserted at most 1/16-1/8” if at all (varies a little).
I will spend a few hours tomorrow testing them again with the ball pen housing. If that works, I will abandon the 1” insertion tool per your suggestions.
Here is how I handle the problem. If a certain pell. fits so loose it drops out & I risk a dryfire, I just dont use that pell. anymore. If a pell. fits so tight I have to treat it like my muzzle loaders, I dont use it either. Every airgun has its own distinct personality regarding what it likes "to eat". (accuracy & what fits in its breach). The Sq.,Crows,& various other types of game I hunt seem to be very intolerant of me taking the time to "seat" a pellet. There are MANY kinds of good pellets. All of my guns show a preferance for a particular type. I try to feed them what they like. Just my 2 cents. Tim.