Dear Diana marksmen, the website is: www.100mairgun.nl Have a closer look to the pictures of the best results of Peter van Meeuwen with a Gunpower SSS. Also nice picture of the .50. The website is only starting because it was a try out on 100 meter and in june the first "official event" will take place. I become the idea that it will be / stay a PCP matter because till now we couldn't shoot nice groups > +/- 100 yards. Should I buy an expensive 460 for only a test ? I don't think so, we will try to tune our 48's on the best way to shoot a good result, all info / tips / experience from your side is welcome and needed to be succesfull in june folks !! Best regards from Johannis.
I think its the right choice to work with what you have now Johannis. Some of us here at DW's have the 460 and you can bet you've already instilled the desire to give it a go.
I would like to ask the folks here who are going to try anything above fifty yards not to be discouraged by larger than expected groups in the beginning. Its a lot longer process than if often thought. The point is, its fun. But the group shrinkage is going to be incremental.
For example, if we're shooting at fifty yards some of us are going to find it seems like we're working backwards. That the groups sometimes get larger instead of smaller. Its the little things that make big differences at greater distances.
Wind flags help to judge the wind and with these small, light and subsonic projectiles you can really see the difference once the idea of how to use flags starts becomes a true aid in long distance shooting.
I'm going to see if I can't find the time to do this myself. Thing is, all I have left in Dianas are the 75 and 46. Since the 46 is a mid powered air rifle flags are going to be imperative for me if I choose that one. My other rifles are already set up for long and longer distance shooting so I'll be using those. We all can by the way. This is a learning process and we need to use whatever seems to suit the task best. Dianas are great but its not all some of us have so I say, if ya got it, use it and post it. Someone here is going to gain by your experiences.
Johannis, good luck to you on this. I think you'll do very well.
I've got up to 75 yds available to me in my yard. I've never shot groups at that range, but I've plinked pop cans. Last time I tried, near calm (under 5mph winds), '34 in .177, I sent 5 shots at the water filled orange crush can. I was rewarded with 4 holes, all thru-and-thru, one thru the top rim joint, 2 thru the sides and 1 clipped the bottom ring. The miss, well who knows
All done with about 8" of hold over, 9x 32mm bushnell sportsman.
I figure that puts my group sizes in the 3-4" range at 75yds... I've only shot that range 2 or 3 times, and the last time I did, my 20yds groups were in the .75" range. They're now in the .3" range, so I should be able to better that when next the bloody wind dies down...
One thing the PCP's have over the springers is they are less bench sensitive. I am beginning to think this is due to the harmonics of the spring-piston power plant. Most posters report that they cannot get repeatable results when bench resting. I am wondering if one of those squishy pillows that were so popular here a few years ago would work? (They feel as if gell-filled but are actually stuffed with tiny styrofoam balls.) Something that would at least settle well but still dampen the shock.
I am not that familiar with the 460 but would guess that it is not that much more potent than your 48. If you have an older 48, your TO-1 trigger would be a plus, as well, not to mention the handling familiarity.
That is a nice website on the 100 meter shoots. Do you all compete in that indoor range, or is it spread between different locations? If indoors, you won't need the wind flags.
Now I will have to get my 54 to the 100 yard range. Maybe I can measure from the target frames to the backstop to see if I can set up at 100 meters.
Johannis, benchrestnig and bed tuning are important here
April 5 2008, 9:59 AM
Having seen your setup/range, let me put in some comments:
From a benchrest, without much experimenting and training, PCP's will always outshine springers.
People call this "hold sensitivity", but as has been pointed out in the other thread below, it has to do with harmonics of the shot cycle.
Therefore, benchresting is NOT the most accurate/precise form of shooting a springer. The D54 will give you some advantage there, but even the grand lady will be "harmonically challenged" when compared to PCP's.
To really get anything near the results of PCP's you need to do several things with your springer:
- Find the sweet spot in the forearm for holding that specific gun. No two guns are equal, so each has its own sweet spot. First find the spot where holding the gun makes it most accurate, then find the degree of pressure or hand holding that makes the gun most accurate. To do this, you need to ALWAYS keep a soft thing between gun and rest. Soft open cell foam is a possibility, your hand is another, an old pillow is another, a gel wrist rest for mouse usage is another. But whatever the soft object chosen or tried, you first need to find the spot. I have personally found that microphone tripods work real well, if you care to try. Try prone shooting, using a pillow as a front rest and using your left hand fist as a rear rest.
- Once you have found the sweet spot, you need to train yourself to ALWAYS put the gun in that place, a thin strip of tape will help you till you have a good feeling for it.
- You will also need to repeat the process for the rear rest. Personally I have found that my shoulder with my left hand rolled into a fist supporting the heel of the stock works well from the prone shooting position. You may find other setups to work better for you, but you need to try them all. If I tighten or loosen my fist the gun will go up or down respectively, it's my "fine aiming".
- You can forget about wind, since it is a covered range, but you still need to contend with internal "breezes". Try to shoot from the middle positions, not the ones near to the walls. Where convection currents will concentrate.
As for equipment, you really need to tune your bedding. It is not difficult, but it is a lengthy process: Tighten the front screw or screws (three screw guns are even more critical in this aspect). Tight, but not crush-the-wood tight. Now, tighten the rear screw and then loosen it 2 full turns. Now shoot 2 groups of 5 shots each at least from 20 meters, mark the card and file away; Now tighten the rear screw 1/4 turn and shoot another two groups, mark card and file; you will have to repeat the process till you are back to the original tightening of both screws tightened down. Some guns shoot better fully tightened down, some others do not. Once you have shot all the groups, get the cards out and analyze. Select the tightening degree that produced the smallest groups, even it they were made where they had no reason to be there. You should be prepared for the impact point to wander up to 4-5 cms., at 20 meters, from one place to another, just by changes in screw tension.
Once you know where the screw tension needs to be, you can go back and repeat the process to duplicate what you want. Tighten, loosen, then tighten by 1/4 turns till you get to exactly where you want. If you can, buy a torquemeter so that you can repeat the adjustments at will; you may need to re-adjust the tension from summer to fall, as the wood in stocks swells and shrinks with humidity.
On the ammo side, you really need to lubricate, select and choose your pellets ONE by ONE. Whether you use an old BIC pen for conicity (as I do) or roll them for consistency (like Harry Fuller does), you will anyway need to WEIGH each pellet and choose it as a good pellet for long range shooting.
And this is AFTER you have chosen the best pellet (model, brand and BATCH) that shoots best in your gun.
Think of a 6-8 cms. group in the target you posted, it would be indeed an impressive score.
Last, but not least, I need to ask you if you can post an electronic version of the target, something in .PDF format to print in tabloid size or double letter size, but something we can go to a print shop, print and be confident that we are all shooting at the same target.
Hector, thanks a lot for all this information and your effort to help me in the coming struggle PCP versus SPRINGER. We keep our rules simple because it must be shooting with an eye wink and not benchrest air shooting. I will prepare my 48 by fitting a "shooting belt" from my Anschutz 54 Match rifle. RWS Meisterkúgeln proved the best results this week. (.177 / 0.53 gram and lubricated with very little liquid PTFE ). We use the 55 x 55 cm card and if you want I can send you one so you can make some copies ? Well, I have to read you superb reply again to filter out what's important for me. Thanks for your unbelievable effort and best regards from Johannis.
