You read some of the .25 guy's posts and you'd think they were
talking about shooting a 12 gauge slug gun. LOL
Pigeons, squirrels, rabbits, possums, coons, chucks, etc. die
just as quick from a well enough placed hit from .22 or .25
or if off the mark enough they flop around wounded or run,
hop, roll away sometimes escaping.
Sure if you desire maximum smallbore airgun power than a big
blowing PCP in .25 is the way to go. In springers a .25 often
doesn't add much over .22 in power.
.177 and .20 - IMO, my experience a magnum .22 beats 'em more
often than not when it comes to hunting/pesting or critter
busting. .22 and .25 - mostly it doesn't make a rat's a*&
diff IMO, my experience.
This "man that .25 pellet hurled the squirrel 6 feet back"
in some posts cracks me up. Heck I've seen big humans hurled,
jack-in-the-boxed, etc. from getting hit with a tiny wasp
stinger. LOL I've seen squirrels spring, dart, quick react
off of a .177 hit 6 feet back, up, to the side, etc.
Yes with a well placed shot a .22cal can deliver the same (lethal) end-result but perhaps with a very large groundhog or racoon, your chances are better with a .25 if the pellet is off just a little, since the kill zone expands as it is explained in this article?
nor .177 and .20 - but do favor .22 in airguns for hunting/pesting
and plinking too.
If I were going to dispatch a big raccoon 25 yds. away and had a
choice of either a .25 shooting FTS at 600 fps MV or a .177 shooting
CPLs at 850 fps MV - both accurate rifles - I'd pick the .177.
I've owned .25s in gasser, springer and PCP - power ranging from low
teens to low 30s FPE so I kinda know how it goes, what it's like.
Loopy trajectory is all dependent on how far you're shooting. My Tommy shoots well out to 75 yards. Granted, you aren't going to shoot heavy pellets with a springer, but a 20-21 grain pellet in .25 is great in velocities of 700 fps or more. Most magnum class guns can generate that with this pellet.
"but I'll be needin' that gun, fer squirrels and such."
I did not mean to imply that springers are not capable, just that I don't think it would be my cup of tea. Due to the energy retained by this pellet when fired from a magnum springer, I would not be inclined to use it at short distances as I might be with a .177 or .22. That being the case, I would want to use it in nice open spaces for some distance shooting and I think the PCP would be better suited for my needs there. More FPE, better trajectory, and better accuracy, all of which help to compensate for the higher cost of the pellets in my opinion.
I have used all calibers extensively, in different power levels, so I have found that there are general applications and special-duty applications. It is not a questions of what is best, but what is best for YOU and YOUR conditions.
I have used many a .25" cal. SpitzKugeln at 16 ft-lbs from a modified Crosman 2200 to shoot pigeons in churches, belfrys, stables and warehouses. Shots are short, you do NOT want to go through the tin roof/break a window/break a 400 years old stone carving, etc. and you want to keep noise to a minimum. The modified/silenced (legal in México) Crosman does a fantastic job.
I have used many a 29 ft-lbs .20 Cal. JSB's shot from a Steyr to gather hares and jackrabbits with clean shots out to 60 yards in the High Dessert of Zacatecas.
I have used many a CrowMag in .177" at 980 fps from a D-52 to gather iguanas and O'Possums in the jungles of Veracruz.
I am now using JSB's .22" Exact Jumbo's from a D-54 to control Grackles that bring clover into Golf courses (and therefore mess the fairways and greens) out to 60 yards, dunno power level, but I will soon.
So, it really depends on WHAT YOU do. Maybe it is a true statement that the .20" and the .22" are the most do-all calibers and combinations, especially in the 20 to 30 ft-lbs. region, but when you reach the outer limits of distance/size/toughness/hardness/difficulty, you need a specialized tool AND THE KNOWLEDGE that will get the job done.
I have never embraced that thing about the killzone becoming bigger with the caliber used. I think it leads to the wrong "mind-set".
I have concluded, after more than 40 years of airgunning, that in airgun hunting accuracy is almost everything (60%), knowledge is a lot (25%), penetration/tissue damage is a little bit (10%), and there is always the sheer luck factor. If, to get that all-important accuracy you think that you need to tune a system made up of: gun, sight, pellet, terrain, prey and shooter, you come to realize what a small role in reality the caliber plays.
Also, after 40 years of airgunning, I am back to being a one-rifle man. And for that I did choose a Diana 54 in .22" that has been tuned to the JSB Exact Jumbo (the 16 grain version, I am waiting for a sample of the 18 grainers, the Express was too light, as the CP). I am exacting great personal satisfaction by being back to the simplicity of spring guns and one caliber, one pellet (the gun can shoot accurately a couple more -GAMO Rockets and Crosman Copperhead Pointed- but I like Josef and his JSB's). In this sense, I think I am now where my first "compadre" in airgunning (the Great Mike Pearson) was, some years ago. Guess it is a question of maturing into the sport.
And notwithstanding that, if I had a "special challenge" (the Cathedral here in Vallarta) or some other specialty situation, I would go for it well and specially prepared.
As you see, to me, the bottom line is you should do what is best for you, your conditions, AND YOUR PREY.
When we decide to take a life, whether it is a pest or not, we are under obligation to do it as cleanly as possible.
caliber is not the issue, it is the responsibility of the shooter to select the right air gun, distance and prey, then it is caliber selection
you cannot fit it all in one caliber
distance, weight of prey, grain of pellet, pull the trigger and expect instant results, my Lord the perfect gun regardless of the gun and caliber!!
your decision to bring down a 30 pound animal at 60 yards with .177 will be WRONG, hunting is a science for those that are true hunters, don't go looking for birds with a .25 and by the same way please don't shoot .177 at a boar, irresponsible is the word
warren
PS: think about this??
and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"
Herb said, ".25 in airgun, it just ain't no big deal." I'm not saying it's the only caliber, or that it's all that, but lets remember:
Newton's 2nd Law tells us that force = mass x acceleration ( F = ma ). Since acceleration is just how velocity changes over time, you can write this as
F = m * v/t
Multiply both sides by time to arrive at
F t = m v where mv is momentum.
Obviously, if velocity is constant, and one object weighs 14 grains, the other 20, the larger object will impart more force. That's all. It really boils down to, do you need more force for a particular application? If so, then go bigger or go faster. Yes, you still need to hit what you're aiming at and there's subjective points like wound channel, shock power at impact, etc.
"but I'll be needin' that gun, fer squirrels and such."
of the air or magic, mystique out of .25 caliber. Some newer
airgun guys are sometimes mesmerised by the biggest of the
smallbore airgun calibers. A few might even believe that just
launching one near a squirrel will do it in. LOL
No doubt your .25 Tommy is a serious smallgame busting tool -
19-20ish gr. .25" wide starting out at 700ish fps MV has plenty
of "git 'er done" goin' on. Same with .22 14-15ish gr. launching
at 700 and even .177 CPHs/Kodiaks/JSB Exact Heavies launchng at 700.
Well, forgive me if I seem vague and open-ended, but I haven't had that all important 1st cup of morning coffee yet, sooooo.
And guys, this IS a good thread....I like it.
Being the 350 Mag nut that I am, I have always tried to think of what can be done with the gun WITHOUT sacrificing factory ....uh....er....firing characteristics (thought I was going to have to say the "smooth" word...yuck).
Ok....my 350s are .22 cal, and I have told myself that THIS is going to be the summer that I order two Lothar-Walther barrels in .25 (1 round and 1 octagonal) and fabricate new breach block for them so that I will have a set of barrels (.22 and .25).
HERE IS MY MOTIVATING THOUGHT:
Beeman Laser in .25 = 17.7g
Beeman Crow Magnum in .22 = 18.2g
OK.......
Now I have NOT actually HELD a .25 cal Laser in my hand to compare to a .22 Crow Magnum, but does it NOT stand to reason that the .25 Laser is going to have about .03 MORE frontal area (impact point on pellet face) as compared to the .22 Crow Magnum?!?!?
Now being .5g lighter and .03 larger, the .25 cal Laser SHOULD shoot at a higher FPS out of my 350s than the 18.2g .22 cal Crow Magnum.....right?
Yes, I know, .25 = larger face = greater amount of surface area = greater drag = slows quicker at range increases...
Another interesting pellet comparison would be .25 Beeman Silver Ace @ 21.6g vs. Beeman .22 Kodiak @ 21.1g...only .5g difference but greater frontal sruface area/mass....plug these #'s into the above thought process.
Is this NOT an interesting bucket of thoughts....What do you all think?
Ok boys....I GOTTA have coffee before I just go back to bed and hide till noon!
Let's forget about air guns for a second and look at powder burners. I am suggesting this because now we can be assured of having enough power to push the lead at a reasonable speed.
When we can push the lead at enough speed then I don't think anyone is going to say the killing power of a 17, 20, or 22 caliber bullet compares to that of a 25 caliber bullet. Period, end of the matter, and all that good stuff. In hunting situations 22 caliber isn't good for much more than varmits (unless you are the army:). Coyotes at best no matter how heavy or fast the round is (sure some will claim to shoot .223 for deer and boar). A 257 weatherby will take moose. Not might be my choice but it has and will do it.
So, if we can have an air gun that has the power to take advantage of the extra weight and size of the 25 caliber it will certainly have more killing power.
"Let's forget about air guns for a second and look at powder burners."
then you say;
"When we can push the lead at enough speed then I don't think anyone is going to say the killing power of a 17, 20, or 22 caliber bullet compares to that of a 25 caliber bullet. Period, end of the matter, and all that good stuff."
you dimise the air guns in your first sentence and then bring them back in your second paragraph, you cannot have the cake and eat it too, are we talking about air guns or powder burners??, they are not the same
there is no such thing as killing power with any gun, they have the capacity if used properly to dispose of your target either paper or game, hit with a .177 or miss with a .25 cal, where is the killing power, in your gun or maybe in your head. like thinking "I have a killer gun" , but if you miss where did that killer gun or pellet size accomplish??
rule # 1; use the right tool for the job
rule # 2; be safe
rule # 3: accomplish the job
bottom line is that there are different tools for different jobs, you do not need a sledge hammer when you can use a hammer and vice-versa, that is your decision
warren
PS: maybe I read the thread wrong and then maybe I am the one that is wrong
and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"
First of all, let me stress my preference for shooting profficiency vs. weapon selection:
Can you take a boar at 60 yards with an 0.177"? maybe not 60 yards, but an accurate JSB H brought down a 40 #'s Javelina at 25. Not as big as a boar, granted, but a porker none the less. Would I advice it? Nope! The shot was taken under PERFECT conditions by a reasonable shot with a good gun. The pellet penetrated the skull, destroyed the cerebellum and severed the medula oblongata. The javelina turned twice around as a dog preparing to bed down and fell. Less than 2 seconds and less than 1 ft from where the pellet reached it.
Can you shoot birds with a .25" Air RANGER at 80 ft-lbs? Yes, if you use CrowMags not much is left of the bird, but you can. It is NOT correct to simply take the shoulders off pest birds and leave them to die because you want to keep the O.S.O.K. record. A bad impact needs a follow-up shot no matter what the prey, no matter what the gun.
Between these two black-black extremes, everything else is grey. But I do think that Warren put the operative word in the picture: Responsibility.
Bill stated that F*t = M*V = momentum. Well, yes and no. Force is the derivative with respect to time of momentum, therefore, the Integral of Force with respect to Time is momentum, yes, but it is not a division/multiplication relation. It is much more complex, as mass can change over time also, and Force, Velocity, and Acceleration are all vectors. Sure a bigger pellet will have more momentum, but once the pellet has gone through the prey, the extra momentum is ¿? ¿where?
Curtis dreams about a .25" cal. 350, well, the laws of proportionality says that he can expect between 602 fps. and 650 fps. Is this enough? only he can tell for his conditions and his prey. Spring guns are not PCP's where there are more/better formulae for extrapolating performance. But within the realm of proportionality, Curtis can expect between 600 and 650 fps. TOPS.
Russ talks about "killing power", but that is a strong "misnomer". Not even firearms have "killing power" as any soldier/cop can tell you when faced with a highly "souped up" subject. Extreme speed is destructive, so is frontal area, so is flat/cup heads vs. pointed heads, and so are a number of other factors. They all compound into a subjective quality we like to call "killing power". To me it's a bad idea.
I do understand the American fascination with more is better, bigger is better, but as any Latin male can attest, it is not how long you have it, but how well you move it.
Hey guys, Tim here. Ok I must add my 2 cents.( I cant help it) LOL! I have NO exp. w/25 cal. airguns,A little bit w/177/20/&22. To Bill: No I dont want to take a hit from any of them!! (they are all potential killers!) I keep an open mind as to calibers for airguns. Seems to me they all have a place. Everyone has a preferance based on what they do with their guns. To Mr Hector, I say to you my friend, Thank you for laying praise on my favorite airgun, Diana 54/22 cal.! I look up to you like I do to a small handfull of others here that I consider "TRUE EXPERTS". Dont mean to leave others out,we know who Im talking about. Dont let me make a list,all here know the TRUE big players here. As a minnow in a big ocean I will say: I think there are a few guns that would perform well in 25 cal. (springers) Diana 350M.? the original Patriot has been moved to another place of man.,,the jury is still out? Seems to me many springers would be great in 25 cal. even w/ a "rainbow" tragectory? Just seems to me like we need more good pells. in that cal.?? Just my 2 cents,now I shut up! Good shooting guys, Tim.
I was in a foggy daze when I posted my thoughts due to a lack of morning coffee! LOL
There were aspects to my inital thought that I didn't post. Those being - considering that my "power-tuned" 350 Mag spits 21.1g -.22 cal. Kodiaks in the mid to high 730s - If I could shoot a 17.7g .25 cal. pellet in the same gun, even being .25, I would think that I could keep close to the 710-730 range. What are your thoughts based on this additional info?
I am not looking for any major advantages as much as I want to do it as a fun project...I think that the results would be interesting if nothing else!
I will post my test findings on this matter by this summer...this IS going to be the year of the .25 350 SuperMag!
Hey Hector, I am going fishing in Ensenada this coming July and I am going to try to get my buddies to consider flying over to the mainland of Mexico, perhaps Puerto Vallarta or Mazatlán. Do you know by chance how hard it is to get airguns into Mexico; I would like to do a little hunting if it is possible. I realize that Baja is part of Mexico so even a hunt in Baja would be fun. I would LOVE to hunt some things that we don't have here in Nevada - your mention of Javalina and Iguanas has the hair on the back of my neck standing on end! My travel agent is SUPPOSED to be looking into this for me, but I have little faith in the validity of her information when my guns are concerned in the matter...I would put them in a plastic bag and swim them home BEFORE I would part with them at a border check or cough them up to the Federales.
Thank you for your time and consideration Hector - I love your insightful posts!
I think I found an error in your post listed above....
You called yourself a a minnow in a big ocean...
I have always thought of you as a Big Proud Tuna, ya know, a precise and efficient P-R-E-D-A-T-O-R! Gerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrowl!!! Or gulp gulp bubble bubble...whatever sound a big Tuna makes...LOL
This is so very much interesting to me for the big airguns of the United States. 5.5 and 6.3mm is a big airgun.
I have the FWB 124 for 4.5mm and I do take small animals very well, but it would be so nice to have the big power like I am seeing in the United States with my brother's big power airguns.
I don't think that many from here would be happy to hunt with airguns in much of Europe. The day before today I shot a bird in the yard of my brother with his powerful 5.5mm Webley and Scott Patriot and I was so very much impressed with the power.
Is there no accidents here that are spoken of when shooting these big guns around the citys houses? This is much of a worry in Europe where power is many times limited.
I must find this website again when I return to my home.
Your eagerness to experiment with a .25cal 350 deserves a lot of praise. We will only really know for sure what our Dianas in .25 cal are capable of, if we convert them and test them through the chrony, on targests, plot their trajectory, and use them in the field. Most of everything said here is based on theory.
To be honest I 'm leaning towards a mid-heavy weight .22 pellet with decent velocity to reach out and take care of game quickly and humanely and I 'm skeptical about a .25cal version, mainly because I have no experience with them. I personally don't like slow moving projectiles (like ~600-650fps) when going after large 10+lb furry creatures like groundhogs because I 'm not sure of the penetration characteristics having experienced a .22 CP going through a g-hog's head at 32yds (w/850-860fps MV) when a Kodiak did not exit at 27ys (660-665fps MV) on a different animal. Nevertheless both did the job, so I remain open minded and optimistic about the .25.
I 'm very excited about this project you are about to undertake and fully support your decision. I 'm looking forward to the results.
Héctor J Medina G (Login HectorMedina) 189.182.88.50
Soyez Bienvenu, Jean Claude!
April 9 2008, 5:56 PM
When you return home, just get "DianaWerk Collective" into your search engine and I am sure the site will pop up.
What are the airgun rules in France? I know you have 5 "classes" of weapons and that licenses are issued up to a certain class. I also know that silencers are legal in France, at least in Rim Fires.
It would be interesting to know in detail what is the situation in your country.
Spring guns are finely tuned devices where the shot cycle depends a lot more on the adiabatic cycle than in the isothermic cycle. What does that mean? you will say.
It means that a springer is RADICALLY different from a PCP. In a spring gun, the energy transferred to the pellet depends on the temperature and pressure spike created when the momentum of the piston decreases to zero, the temperature rises to extremely hot, the air inside the compression chamber goes almost into Plasma state and before the piston bounces back, the fluid is channelled through the transfer port and on the other side of the transfer port the plasma starts expanding, pushing the pellet, and the heat starts being converted into pressure that pushes the pellet further along increasing the pellet speed till the pellet exits. That is why the transfer port size is so important. If it is too small, the piston on the compression side will reach the temperature peak before enough energy can be transferred to the base of the pellet. If it is too big, pressure and temperature will not rise enough and the pellet will start moving and the size of the chamber will start increasing before the proper peak in temperature and pressure reach the peak desired. Usually, transfer port sizes are set by factories to be the same for 0.177" and 0.20" cal. and as another size for 0.22" and 0.25". In that sense, I do not think you should worry. You will need to be ready to experiment with Top Hats and even different pistons, as the factory piston will not behave the same with a an expansion chamber that grows at .25" rate as opposed to growing at .22" rate. Top Hats can help you overcome limitations of pistons being too light, but it will be difficult to deal with the situation of pistons being too heavy unless you want to swiss-cheese the piston and install buttons. All of these are possible, and depending on how the compression tube behaves with the change of caliber, you will need to react differently.
You also need to take into account the total swept volume. It will not change, whatever you do, unless you short stroke the gun and that is not your intention, as I understand.
Since the swept volume will not change, you are probably better off starting with a shorter barrel. Measure/calculate the VOLUME of the current barrel and then cut the .25" barrel accordingly (remember to leave the choke by cutting from the chamber side) Lothar Walther barrels are good barrels, but in airguns I would go for a Diana or an HW barrel, just personal preference; Pyramyd Air has some Diana barrels, perhaps they can help you in that. In Diana spring guns, increasing the caliber USUALLY leads to lower MV because Diana dimensions everything for .22" caliber and from there adjustments are made for 0.177" and .20", but no further adjustments are possible when going to .25". Other spring guns can and do benefit from increases in caliber because the initial dimensioning was done using different parameters, Like the RX-2, the Eliminator, and others from Theoben or Webley.
Having said that, when time comes, I will welcome the opportunity to correspond with you here all along the process.
On bringing airguns into México, at least "sproingers" should pose no problem now that the Army and the Commerce secretariat have published accurate guidelines. Not all the "federales" know about these or those who do choose to ignore them in the hope of some "cog greasing", if and when the time comes, I can send you the full document (it is a .PDF version of the official gazette) and you can decide whether you want to take the risk or not. PCP's are strongly regulated, so my advice would be completely against it.
Remember that in México ALL hunting is conducted on Government approved zones/units, that you will need to get a hunting license and that it is best to leave the details to someone who makes a living of this.
I have hunted in Zacatecas with the Tierra Brava people:
They are a good and honourable bunch, Salvador is a good person and "airgun friendly", especially on the small mammals side. I do not think he would have any objections to bigger prey, like javelina, coyote & deer, but you would have to contact him. The ranch is 3 hours drive from Zacatecas airport. Zacatecas is a good 2 hours flight from Ensenada.
Most seasons will have passed when you come, so it is highly unlikely you can arrange something, but there is the info and you can plan at your convenience.
