My friends;

We have been going back and forth with the "tuner" theme for some time, but no one here has even attempted to DEFINE the difference between a tune and a parts swap.

So I'll jump off the deep end and start the discussion:

Most airgunners/tinkerers are part swappers. Most do not have the mechanical skills and/or tools needed to fabricate specialty parts or items. Most are contented with getting an improved gun, whether it is perceived improvement or a real improvement.

The other side of the problem is that most shooters are not precisely obedient. As a tuner, you can tell your customer what to use and how to use it and most probably the shooter will think he knows better/best. If he was willing to take the responsibility of not doing what he was told, then all would be OK, but more often than not, he will say that the tune was not correct and/or ineffective.

Now, in MY perception, a TUNER looks for what the word implies: HARMONY

We do not use the word "tune" for nothing, a good "tuner" will move/tweak little and large things so that the whole process will become HARMONIOUS. Harmony, often implies efficiency, and that will mean increased power, but power is not the end all-be all. If it was, we would all be using .460 Weatherby Magnums, LOL!

But we are airgunners, we THRIVE on low power levels, we LOOK for PRECISION, not power. We handicap ourselves with a low power gun (for whatever reason we elected that path) and made that low-power handicap our flagship.

Sure we can argue about a couple of foot pounds here and there, but in essence, most springunners will settle for anything under 25 ft-lbs as the extreme case. 20 ft-lbs. being most likely, and most of us gladly settling with 16-18 ft-lbs.

Having said that, TUNING then becomes a somewhat aesthetical quest. Hard to measure, hard to quantify, hard to qualify, hard to define. It's almost like Zen "equilibrium".

The word LOVE, as used by Curtis and Tim and others, also reflect what I would deem a proper "tune".

So, to close my opening statement, I would end up by repeating that a "tune" by it's very definition makes the gun's functioning harmonious. Harmonious in sound, harmonious in absence of superfluous vibrations, harmonious in the repeatability of the shot placement.

To make a gun shoot like a well tuned Cello instead of a highly strung electric guitar is what I would call a proper tune.

JMHO



Un Abrazo!




H�ctor

What you describe as "tuning" is getting a gun to perform in an optimal manner within rather narrow usage parameters. An example of this would be a ten meter target rifle. If talking cars instead of airguns, this might be a formula race car. I think most people define tuning as the refinement of a stock or factory-specs gun. These tunes are directed more or less at sporting guns intended primarily for hunting/informal target shooting where conditions and ammo availability are likely to vary. Again, in automotive turns, these would be souped-up stock cars.

Your post does bring up a good point. There is a distinction between a "parts swapper" and an expert tuner. There used to be a fellow around here who held himself out to be a gunsmith specializing in custom Smith & Wesson revolvers. I mentioned him to some other shooters and was told his customizing consisted of a special set of factory revolver parts which come in a range of sizes. When given a stock revolver to "customize", he would simply take out each part, measure it, then replace it with one that fit a bit better. Did the finished gun compare to a truly customized S&W? No way. I will say that most of the airgun "parts swappers" do improve the product a lot more than he did.

I'm not familiar with tuners who specify how to use an airgun they've optimized, but it sounds quite a bit like the directions for loads in high grade double rifles. These have the barrels regulated to shoot to the same point of aim, worked up with very specific ammo load data. I guess an olympic grade rifle would have the same restrictions.

Most gun manufacturers have to cut a few corners to stay in the game and have to balance between profits and acceptable products.
A German or Chinese airgun is a good example of both extremes.
Some folks are quite happy with the latter, while others want to make the former even better.
Tuning to me is taking a stock gun and doing to it what the maker could not do to stay competitive;
Things like closer tolerances on the spring guides and polishing of sliding surfaces come to mind.
Moving on a step, fitting the correct spring (not always to increase the power)that is well suited to the dimensions of the airgun (bore X stroke), results in a smooth and accurate shooter.

Hector, I agree with you and its a case of getting the sum of many small things just right to get close to perfection.

Definition of a piano tuner:

Piano tuning is the act of making minute adjustments to the tensions of the strings of a piano to properly align the intervals between their tones so that the instrument is in tune. The meaning of the term in tune in the context of piano tuning is not simply a particular fixed set of pitches. Fine piano tuning requires an assessment of the interaction between notes, which is different for every piano, thus in practice requiring slightly different pitches from any theoretical standard.

I chuckle when I see someone talk about a tune in relationship to POWER, or how fast his gun now shoots. I listen to fella's that run to the chrony right after a tune. I personally feel like a tuner is more like a great artist. He can feel the scene even before he puts it on canvas. I know a tuner that loves his craft more than just about any man I have met. I have watched him, and it is so impressive to see him go into another world when he tunes a gun. His whole mind actually becomes "INTUNE" with the rifle at hand. It is almost like they become ONE. When he has finished the tune, you can see the pride of his new masterpiece written all over him. A gun tuned by him is now a collection piece, never to be sold or traded. He does not tune a gun for more power. He knows the precise limitations and specifications of each gun. He can feel it. To ask him to tune for power is akin to asking 'Jean Goujon', to place bigger breast on his masterpiece "Diane appuyée sur un cer". Not surprising is the fact that he does NOT OWN A CHRONY. When I have asked him to tune a gun for me, I just turn it over to him, knowing that he will tune the gun as a master piece. When he finishes a tune, and hands me the gun is usual reply is "Here, this gun will give you a lifetime of good shooting." He is known to many, simply as MZ.

Good Shooting
Dave@vabch

Inexpensive to mid-range factory rimfire rifles are built to perform to a certain level. They have SAAMI sporter chambers designed to accept a variety of ammunition from different manufacturers and still work if the ammo has a slightly dented nose or a bit of fuzz sticking to it from carrying it around in your pocket. "Lawyer" triggers are now the norm (pick up a stock 1950's gun if you don't believe it)and, as mentioned above, the more it costs to build a gun, the more modern mass-production techniques and "short cuts" are applied. Lots and lots of sheet metal these days. For some shooters, the stock rimfire is adequate (and, for hunting purposes, truly is.) But there are owners who want to "customize" them to increase performance. They tune or replace triggers, float barrels, bed actions, re-cut chambers to match specs, re-cut target crowns or replace barrels, altogether. The list goes on. (In the case of Ruger 10/22's, it's the Never Ending Story.) But, should you buy a Cooper, Kimber or higher-grade Anschutz, you won't have to do most of these things. Of course, you are paying for it. Guess this is the same with those expensive PCP's/FT guns we see flaunted so regularly.

Then you have specialty shooters like benchresters. These start out with a good target gun and take it from there - custom stocks, sight sets, rings and target scopes, best barrels and trigger groups. Others prefer a one-of-a-kind sporter. They might buy a fifty year old Winchester 52 target rifle and send it to a master gunsmith who will re-sculpt/engrave the action, make an exhibition grade stock to individual measurements, re-barrel and guarantee sub-MOA accuracy with certain ammo, topping it all off with hand-fitted rings and a $1,500 scope.

I see parallels to each item, above, when I read the airgun forums.

You say you chuckle when someone wants a power tune and you have said that several times and ingnored these comments in the past. I 'm sure you 're thinking of me including others here when you say that but I don't mind if it's being directed at me.

Why do you think that a tune is all about de-tuning and dropping the power? That's not the only form of tuning. Sure you can detune your gun and make it more accurate, BUT, almost anyone can do that. That's a sure outcome to make a gun handle and shoot better with more accuracy. Cut coils, use a smaller spring, etc. and that's what MZ does to your guns, among other things. This is why Match guns are low-powered.

What's challenging and harder to do, is a power tune or tune a gun with OEM power and still make that gun shoot more efficiently with a harmonious shot cycle like Hector said, resulting in much improved accuracy and a pleasurable gun to shoot and cock with a properly tuned trigger.

It's not all about detuning your airgun, but in your case it is. So be it, to each his own. Please stop critisizing those who want a better gun with OEM power. You chuckle and laugh, or whatever, but you have never owned a "power tuned gun" or one even with close to OEM power that has been tuned, so how can you comment? There is nothing wrong in wanting to maintain OEM power when tuning a gun when its intended duty is hunting and you want to hit that "sweet spot" accurately at 50yds.

What is wrong with tuning a 34/36 and keeping the stock 13fpe power? You don't think the 34 was designed by Diana to handle a meazly 13 foot-pounds? That's not a lot of power. Sure the gun may shoot a little better if it's 8fpe in the case of your 34. While you 're at it why don't you go do gown to 5fpe and make it behave more like a CO2 or a pumper, almost recoiless? You also said in the past MZ spent almost 3hrs on your gun. Well having seeing the other posts from Curtis and Ed K, it seems like that's not hardly enough for a good tune. Properly deburring & polishing of all integral parts (not jeweling like Curtis did), takes a few hours alone and fabricating custom parts several more. Modifying and polishing the trigger takes considerable time too.
My guess is MZ detuned your guns mostly because he did not fabricate custom guides and/or top hat and had to use stock internals, or maybe didn't tune the trigger, I don't know.. I 'm not saying you didn't get a nicely done tune, you probably did for the power level he tuned them for. It is harder and more time consuming to tune a gun that shoots extremely well at 750-800fps than it is to tune one for 550-600fps.

If I read what you said correctly, then you are implying people that want to hunt with their airguns with an acceptable power level (for hunting) should not bother having their guns tuned at all, unless they are seriously detuned. We should all laugh at those people which is insulting to say the least to many people here including tuners. Sorry but I don't agree with that way of thinking at all Dave.

J posted that he won a match competition with his Ed K - tuned 52 under another tuner thread. I doubt his gun shoots at <10fpe. This tells me Magnum Dianas can be tuned for very close to match grade quality with the proper care and innovation on the tuner's part. Maybe your seriously detuned gun shoots 300% better than stock, and a tuned one with OEM power shoots 250% better. Is that cause to laugh, and say you got a crappy tune, give it up, why bother? I don't understand the logic here Dave.
Are the 40hrs Curtis put into my gun already (some of them were fixing problems and correcting/adjusting tolerances which is very important) all spent in vein?

Harry, I am glad your gun is firing at high speeds. I was mainly praising the work of a man that has devoted a good portion of his life to tuning guns. I take a lot of exception to some of your comments, especially that tuning a gun at a certain high velocities takes more skill than one at a lower velocity. How would you know? I have no doubt that MZ can tune a gun at your fps wish, but it is not his desire to do so. "I have posted before that it is "each to his own", maybe you missed that post. And I think you also missed the post I quoted from "Paul Watts" reflecting the very subject of
"Power Tunes", so maybe you can direct some of your comments of skill level to him as well. By the way, my 34 shoots a hell of a lot nicer than your comment "a little Better". How do you know how my gun shoots after his tune? I will chuckle at your remark that You can GUESS what MZ did on a tune? Weather he spent 3 hours on the tune or 3 months, is totally irreverent to his skill! By the way, Harry, I just received my R7 back and it was NOT detuned much to your surprise. The gun did not need it. Precision, means Precision. By the way, I was directing my comments of the guys that run to the chony after the tune to the hundreds of folks that do it. I am sorry you missed the first paragraph I quoted on a Precision Piano tunes. Obviously you did not see the relationship or essence of my comments.

I think Harv summed it up with his quote "
"Just about anyone can make a rifle a bit smoother. Better. It takes obsession to reach near perfection."

Good Shooting Harry, I am happy that you love your new tune and the gun is shooting the way you like.

Dave@vabch

Morning Héctor,

I can’t really add anything beyond what you have already stated. You covered all of the bases so well that I can’t even have a friendly morning debate with you over the “power” issue...your observations are accurate and very well balanced and fair – as usual.

I would really like to type one of my “War and Peace”-like 30 paragraph long posts, but you have really hit everything on the (X).

Geeze...I don’t have anything more to say...feels weird...LOL

Good post Hector...you nailed it!!

-Curtis

PS...Morning David, Dave(davbch), and RedFeather! -waves and spills my coffee-

I think the difference comes in the understanding of the final outcome. A deeper understanding of what the tune ends up doing to the rifle. This appreciation is not normally in the hands of the end user initially but begins with the guy willing to sit down and work through the mated parts.

This is why people new to this sport want higher velocity. That's all they see. Get the velocity up and they think all is well. But it isn't. Accuracy is the supreme goal. New airgunners tend to equate achieving higher velocity with a better airgun until they realize that most often, pushing higher velocities affects accuracy.

While I appreciate the long range game, the affects of wind etc undermine the combination of shooter and tool. Take any airgun and shoot it at that oh so close distance of thirty three feet and fifty five inches high from an unsupported standing position. Its then the shooter begins to realize how thoroughly a match rifle proves the shooter has a long way of learning ahead.

Take the untuned sporter rifle and put it through those ten meter paces. Its then one begins to realize the importance, the necessity to have even the sporter rifles tuned to agonizing perfection. Its hard to explain the requirement of shooting any airgun at its utmost best until you stand on the line at thirty three feet in a quiet setting and feel a given sporter rifle's shot cycle. One session of shooting will make it clear to the shooter what areas need to be addressed.

Repeatability beyond the shooter's capability is just the start. Now you set the goal of the tune to keep it like that for as long as possible. Just as I have a passion for ten meter shooting, the entire process of it all, so does the tuner who can put his finished work against anyone elses and expect the shooter of his rifle to be the greatest variable.

Just about anyone can make a rifle a bit smoother. Better. It takes obsession to reach near perfection.

Harv

Well, it's been lively here!

Most of us have our own opinions and tastes; and that is good!, I would hate it if all the guys liked my girlfriend! ROFL!

The necessary disclaimer: I do not want, on purpose, to offend anyone, but if I do, I am sorry. Having said that:

Let me comment on some important items, classified by author:

RedFeather, I think, takes his guns as specialized tools. Since he speaks of benchresters and rimfire shooters, I must infer that precision is paramount to him. Perhaps in his mind he is even willing to accept some discomfort in exchange for utmost precision (weight in a gun would be a prime example of this), but I am only inferring. To him, I can say that I have tuned hunting rifles, target shooting rifles, silhouette rifles, FT rifles and even plinking rifles. Each TUNE has required a different philosophy, different objectives and different goals. My OWN personal rifles are tuned somewhere in the middle of a Silhouette, FT and Hunting rifle. I am not too much of a 10 meter Match shooter, though I do my share, mainly as a training discipline.
What is important here is that the tuner needs to understand the shooter in order to come up with a suitable service. If the shooter is versatile or specialist, the tune will be different.
And yes, when I tuned a gun, I tested 12-15 varieties of pellets at the ranges, targets and expected usages, therefrom the recommendations that went with the gun. Sometimes, I even had to start with a "family" of pellets to narrow down the needed actions in the tune itself.

DVDRIT touched upon an important aspect of the "art" of tuning. The tuned gun is "synergetical". It is more than the sum of the parts. It's like a good "mole" (Mexican dish) where the spices, meats, seeds, chocolates and chillis make a wonderful mixture that is much more than the sum of all the tastes put together. In this sense, DVDRIT perhaps poses the most important aspect: Exceeding expectations. As a tuner, that is probably, the most difficult thing to do.

J tries to quantify the quality of the tune. That is fine, but I would say that given a specific purpose, the power inherent in a gun is a "hygiene" factor. If you have enough, then everything else can be evaluated, but if there is not enough, then the remaining things are almost useless. If I was shooting FT in the US, perhaps I would need the 16-19 ft-lbs we talk about so much. If J was going to go to the international competitions where the power limit is 12 ft-lbs (as of this year ALL internationals will have the 12 ft-lbs limit), he might ask for a different tune. SO, to put it mildly: power needs to be sufficient for the task at hand, whatever is the most demanding task. Unless a minimum, task-specific power level is met, then the whole of the rest of the tune has failed. IMHO.

RedFeather jumped in again with very valid points: Price vs. Quality, Price vs. the challenge at hand, and also, in a very tangential way, posed an interesting question: Challenge of taking a low cost gun and making it perform to higher standards. I guess that when we decide to tinker with our OWN personal guns, this is part of the motivation. As Tom Anderson would say: "turning a sow's ear into a silk purse"

Harvey comes up with an interesting point about 10 meter shooting, it has to do with the point above also. A challenging discipline will demand MORE of a shooter, MORE of the gun, MORE of the tuner than a simple plinking gun. Both are nice, both are interesting, both are necessary, but both have DIFFERENT needs. A long 60 shot Olympic string can place a strain in your body, especially if you shoot without all the Olympic "accouterments" (tripod, jacket, eye-covering cap, shooting boots, etc. etc. etc. A well tuned Olympic Match gun will feel like an extension of your body and allow you to concentrate while minimizing fatigue, and therefore possibility of loss of concentration; which is the end-all, be-all of Olympic shooting; absolute repeatability.

DavBch gets into the aesthetics of a tune and how a well tuned gun is simply nice to shoot. I think that if a gun is not a pleasure to shoot, then why use it? I can only think of either a settling-in session or a pre-tune shooting session in order to define what I will look for when tuning the gun.

Lastly, Curtis needs to be thanked.

As RedFeather said: it is a rather vague term, and this is precisely the point behind the exercise: we should all know what we want before asking someone to tune a gun for us. We need to be as precise and specific as we can. And it is good to ensure that the tuner understands what we want.

Keep well!



Un Abrazo!




H�ctor

By the way Curtis, I have to make the comment that you are a master in your own right. I enjoy your post and have learned much. Your work is beyond commendable! Thanks for your insight and knowledge that you have shared. Keep up the good work.

Good shooting!
Dave@vabch

Ps I loved your pics

(Are these threads ever really closed? )

For the record, I am not all about accuracy. Given my ability to inconsistently hit the broad side of a barn from the inside, that kind of tickles me. Truth be told, I can be fairly happy with minute of bagel. The "best" rimfire I have is a fairly nice BSA 12/15 which I will never fully master. The rest consist of now-archaic pumps, a couple of bolt guns and two semi-autos. I am just as happy seeing what I can do with open sights at 100 yards as with a big X scope at fifty.

Here's a quote from above:

"Take any airgun and shoot it at that oh so close distance of thirty three feet and fifty five inches high from an unsupported standing position. Its then the shooter begins to realize how thoroughly a match rifle proves the shooter has a long way of learning ahead.

Take the untuned sporter rifle and put it through those ten meter paces. Its then one begins to realize the importance, the necessity to have even the sporter rifles tuned to agonizing perfection."

To me, there is no requirement to have any gun tuned to the enth degree. I look more at what the gun's intended use is. I could, for example, rework my stock early Winchester 61 and wring a bit more accuracy out of it, but to what end? In it's original form, it's doing its job, so to speak. If a shooter is satisfied with his stock airgun, or one that's been made a little more sedate, that's fine with me.

"To each his own," sais the old maid as she kissed the cow.

most interesting blog

if you buy that Golden Gun would you tune it?

I have air guns that are not tuned, WHY? because they shoot straight and true and why tune that gun

we want the ultimate airgun with the most POWER and expect to hit 1/4 at 30 yards, PLEASE

get what you can master and shoot and go to the next level with what you can master

warren

PS: you are all correct but do not expect a tuner to so your work (meaning shooting) that is your dilema

and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"

 Y'all are great!

 To this complex and very entertaining mix of thoughts, deeds, and opnions, let me ask where do the specifics that define what, how, and why an airgun needs if it needs a tune reside?

 Frankily I still haven't actually seen the requirements but have read volumes of posts and herd many many opnions. Actually, I think that no such Rule Book really exhists, but the very REAL desire to have more than a "Stock" airgung does! Maybe it's just wanting to have the best version of the particular model that IS actually the rule. Maybe, knowing that it can be done in so many different ways and in so many variations is all the rule that's needed and no actual book of improvements and specifications exhists? LOL!

 The best part for me as just an airgunner is being able to read of and maybe sort of understand about all the cool mod's and work done to get an airgun to that desired state of nirvana is a real treat! Please keep all these wonderfull and informative posts alive and PLEASE don't be or get offended by others opnions. As just a shooter and airgun nut I love learning so much! When I touch the trigger off, I think of the many variables that could maybe affect my gun to make the shot perfect. I shoot in awe of not knowing (Still learning tho) of what could help a simple nimrod such as I?

  To all of you who can do the work or know what work is needed to get the airgun perfectlly set-up, I take my hat off in humble respect!

 Thanks once again for making this place so much fun to visit and to read! Gosh, I love this stuff!

 ZVP

 

Ok, ZVP asked, "where do the specifics that define what, how, and why an airgun needs if it needs a tune reside?

He went on to wisely point out "Actually, I think that no such Rule Book really exists, but the very REAL desire to have more than a "Stock" airgun does! Maybe it's just wanting to have the best version of the particular model that IS actually the rule. Maybe, knowing that it can be done in so many different ways and in so many variations is all the rule that's needed and no actual book of improvements and specifications exists? LOL!...."

There is more truth and accuracy to his assertion than meets the eye!

I am not sure that I will have things properly ordered here so I might be somewhat circuitous and ramble while presenting my thoughts, but I will try to keep things tight and neat.

First of all, the need for a tune is a determination made by the shooter/owner of the gun. That determination is based on a variety of factors/motivations, be they real or falsely perceived.

One man gets a cheap gun and hears/reads that it can be improved - he either conducts a "home tune" as far as his abilities and tools will take him...if satisfied, he is done, if not, he might look for a tuner to do the work.

One man buys an expensive, high quality Euro gun and knows, by way of experience, reading, or hearing that a tune will take a great gun and make it better in many different regards. Perhaps he has shot the gun for some time and then decides that he wants the gun tuned, OR, perhaps he wants the gun tuned BEFORE he even shoots it as he believes, correctly or incorrectly, that some degree of unnecessary ware on the internals could/will occur and he believes that it is better to have the tuner start with a pristine piece than to perhaps have to clean some things up BEFORE the real tuning can even start; that is a belief that I wholly and completely concur with.

It is a matter of a fact that the person, who owns the more expensive gun, especially if it is English / German / Swedish, will have a better functioning knowledge of airgunning in general and will most probably have an intermediate to advanced knowledge of his or her particular gun based on make and model. This is due to the fact that the person, after having invested a considerable amount of money in the gun, accessories, and pellets, will be more inspired/motivated to conduct specific research concerning the gun’s abilities, how it is made, and how it can be/should be modified. This research will most probably lead him to places like this forum (or others) and, at the urging of other airgunners, he/she will most probably be directed to a “tuner’s” website (or an address/ph# will be given for contact purposes). Note: We have all seen that very thing happen right here at Dianawerks Collective.

The other side of that coin is that the person who has a considerable sum of money tied up in a high quality gun will most probably want the gun to be serviced by a professional tuner or at least a person who has a reputation for providing high quality work on the make and model of gun that the person owns. If the tuner does good work and the customer is happy, a relationship will form and a continuing maintenance/preventative maintenance program/schedule will be developed.

One man buys a gun, shoots it until some of the internals need to be replaced (piston seal - spring - etc.) and he knows that those parts ARE considered to be "consumables" that WILL ware out. Just like the man in the first example, he either conducts a "home tune" as far as his abilities and tools will take him...if satisfied, he is done, if not or if he doesn't want to tackle the issues at all, he might look for a tuner to do the work.

One man owns a chrony and checks the power level of his gun monthly (or whenever the notion strikes him)...if he sees a drop, he tunes it himself or has it tuned. His buddy in a different state doesn't have a chrony to test with, but he notices a significant drop in the POI which is not justifiable based on his knowledge of his sighting system - he might conduct a "bar of soap" test or something similar...perhaps not, but he know enough to know that what is probably happening is that there is an air leak - he might conduct a "home tune - aka - parts swap" or he may send it off to be tuned.

One man is the type of personality that just wants the gun to be modded to the top level so that it can be all that it can be! This person might have specific goals in mind…tune UP for power, detune for smoothness, or a harmonious blend of both power and smoothness – this is what I consider to be making the gun function more efficiently and letting it do all that it can based on its design. Custom parts such as a high quality tophat and rear guide can and should be factored in to this equation BEFORE tweaking for power enhancements as any additional spacing should be factored into the design of the tophat and or rear guide…stacked washers make me cringe and should be avoided IF POSSIBLE…I do understand that there are times when such things can’t be avoided. To me, washers should only be utilized for the purpose of determining how much spacing is required to achieve the desired power level – then that should be factored into the design of the new parts. (IMO)

Here are a couple of “real world” functioning examples of what can be achieved with a meticulous inspection and then corrective action in a tune. Our own Dianawerks Collective Harry (only1harry) is having me tune his .22 cal. 350 Mag. Before I started working on anything, I went through the gun with a find toothed comb – that process took about 10 hours over a couple of days. I wanted to know the gun inside and out BEFORE I did anything so that I would have a base point of reference that I could draw upon as the tune started to progress. The last thing that you want to have happen is to WONDER if something that you might have done is having a negative effect on some aspect of the gun or IF it was that way PRIOR to the commencement of the work!!!!! This is where experience is valued over textbook knowledge…ya gotta stub your toe a few times to really get that hands on experience IMO.

So anyway, during the initial inspection of Harry’s gun, I found that the compression tube was out of round .985 below the cocking slot...you could not see it, but when I ran the tube through the "4 point" gauge, there is was clear as day. I cleaned the rubber "soft jaw covers" for my bench vise with soap and water, dried them off, covered the compression tube with blue masking tape for further protection of the finish, and over the course of an hour with 3-4 smokes and a few cups of coffee, had the tube back to within ".004 common" of spec. through endless micro-tweaking and measuring and more tweaking.

His breechblock end was out of spec as well and adding an extra 0.021 of droop overall to the barrel by not letting it come up high enough when the barrel was returned to the firing position. I ran the barrel through the "4 point gage" and it was straight as an arrow, so I measured the barrel at the muzzle and cross checked where the barrel enters the breech block, then that spec was checked against the linear alignment relationship between the muzzle end of the barrel and the compression tube right behind the yoke (I hope that didn't sound too convoluted - lol).

Anyway, this was another invisible flaw/error/oversight that occurred during the manufacturing process. It was not a BAD error like the compression tube, but an error by any other name is still and error and should be resolved. This is EXACTLY why you spec and blueprint a gun BEFORE you start working on it…for who knows what evil lurks under the bed?!?!?! (making a spooky noise) Ya just DON’T know till ya lift the sheets and see what’s under there!!! LOL

There was some extensive rusing inside of the compression chamber as well, but we caught it before it left any pitting in the metal...at least that was visable...those are the easy ones, ya know?!?!?

My final thought is that there are a number of reasons to tune a gun and many goals that can be set which define what the tune will hopefully accomplish. Some reasons to get a tune are valid while some are based on a whim, other are based on incorrect perceptions/info., but it is all up to the owner as to what will ultimatly be done, for better or worse.

Ok guys, I have ran my opinionated mouth enough…these were just some thoughts that I had.

Good shooting to all…….

-Curtis

You state: "It is a matter of a fact that the person, who owns the more expensive gun, especially if it is English / German / Swedish, will have a better functioning knowledge of airgunning in general and will most probably have an intermediate to advanced knowledge of his or her particular gun based on make and model. This is due to the fact that the person, after having invested a considerable amount of money in the gun, accessories, and pellets, will be more inspired/motivated to conduct specific research concerning the gun’s abilities, how it is made, and how it can be/should be modified. This research will most probably lead him to places like this forum (or others) and, at the urging of other airgunners, he/she will most probably be directed to a “tuner’s” website (or an address/ph# will be given for contact purposes). Note: We have all seen that very thing happen right here at Dianawerks Collective."

I feel this is a common misconception, be it with airguns, firearms, cars or fast horses. Simply because an owner is well-heeled enough to afford the more expensive airguns doesn't guarantee he or she is more knowledgeable. Just read the posts over on the Yellow's Chinese forum and it soon becomes clear that it's not an inclusive club.

Tim, do see about an edit function! If you would be so kind.

 Much better said than my Summer Cold /Flu fogged mind could produce!

 The validations of the need for modifications ARE surely very personal and when carried out by a nitpicking craftsman with experience generally overlooked problems get solved!

  Too bad that the average airgunner dosent know these specifications and/or dosen't have the skills and tools to check em out. Surely many guns have them and it says a LOT that a decent production line gun from a maker such as HW, Webley, or Diana (to name only 3) can shoot as super as most do. Just imagine what a blueprinted one does, and owners of these are truely Blessed!

  It's fortunate that so many good minds meet on Forums such as this and pour over the "why's" of refining the objects of our passion. As said above, it's also good that a general production piece does so well! The operation ( in our case, shooting) of a quality machine of any sort is a real turn-on! It's also good that all the seemingly endless variables between metal, springs, and lead start out as well regulated as to present us a benchmark to compare each model to! Bully for the Manufacturers!

 I wonder if someday a standard of General Purpose accuracy and preformance might be penned? Perhaps one for the Hot Rod guns, then one for the accuract ones? Maybe then,such a standard could guide the average Joe to his wants and needs.

 Decades back, Doc Beeman once set forth a field guide showing the basic target size, accuracy and power levels needed to eliminate Pest Species. Even though it was very general in content, it provided a really good starting point... Trouble was it was Springer biased and led some astray from GOOD hunting guns such as the Sheridan's, Crosman's, and Benjamin's. LOL!

 This string is very intresting and is sorta like a microcausim of the whole Forum, eh? Pretty neat!

 ZVP

I think the need for a tune depends a whole lot on why one shoots an airgun. I have airguns so that I can shoot anytime I feel like doing so. I have pop cans perched on old arrows set up outside my office window. When I need to blow a little steem I grab an airgun, open thw window and get after it. They are also used for pest control and small game. None of them have been tuned and all of them do as I need. It is not that I couldn't appreaciate a well tuned gun. Every gun in my safe is customized with the exception of a one day old Weatherby Orion O/U and I am sure it will have work done on it in due time. All of my rifles are bedded, floated and wear Timney triggers. Every gun has a purpose and every gun is modified to accomplise the task at hand. My airguns accomplish their task as is. One day they may get a good tune and when and if that day comes I am sure I will fully appreaciate the difference. Until then I can promise you no pop can is safe on my airgun range.

James

I want to clarify that its up to the shooter/owner to decide if a tune is something he or she wants. What I stated above is my own opinion and certainly no one here or anywhere else has to agree with me. Just as I appreciate the thoughts of others on this topic it doesn't necessarily mean I agree with their logic or actions.

The reason I shoot ten meter is sort of a time of meditation for me. Heck I might be the only one here who thinks of it that way but that's alright. I don't have the time to get out into the field as I would like although that's another time of meditation I enjoy. You're kind of on your own out there. Even if you're with someone else the moment of the shot is yours alone.

I know people who would have no trouble getting into their airguns yet they choose not to. Others will dig into each and every airgun they own. Another segment is somewhere in between. I think for some its a pleasure in itself to tune an airgun. For others that's not even close to the point of their fun.

The thing is, these airguns ought to work well enough that someone who chooses not to tune should still be able to enjoy a certain airgun for a very long time. Imperfections may make themselves apparent over the life of a stock airgun but I also think we airgunners probably shoot more than the majority of people putting lead projectiles down range.

This sport come down to being an interesting hobby. Very few people are making money at this. We're here because for one reason or another we all love airguns.

Harv

HI boys,

First, in light of what RedFeather pointed out about my post....

If I sounded like a "airgun Snob" and or if I offended anybody with my interpretation of the owners of expensive guns vs. owners of guns that are not so expensive, I sincerely apologize. I would like to take a second to explain my logic as I DO think that it is valid.
_____________________________________________________________________

I was ready to post but came back to add this thought as it goes along with everything else that I stated. This is a Diana Forum, and while not all Diana's are $500+, they still do not represent the quality of airguns that MOST AVERAGE people get when they want to get an airgun for whatever the reason to get one might happen to be.

My very first airgun was a BB gun that my Mom and Grandparents saved "Blue Chip Stamps" to buy for me when I was 5-6 years old back in early 1970-72...it was a Daisy 1894 that I still have - UNmodded... I still have it and shoot it from time to time, but it is pretty much retired as I would hate to see a part on it break (it's body is cast metal). I was lucky to have a family that was into guns with 3 generations of gunsmiths in the family, so when I progressed beyond Crosman pumpers to better guns, they were truly better guns. I had a Beeman R1 and a Benji/Shar pumper and a Crosman 3100 (a break barrel) when most all of my friends had Kmart guns.

Please remember that what WE here call "airguns" most people would mistakenly call –gulp- BB guns... or getting a bit better pellet guns (technically accurate but still.......[rolls eyes]....

Some of us own dial calipers and talk about "ctc" measurements at 10 to 100+ yards when the average back yard airgunner just puts a can up or a piece of paper with a mark on it and shoots, never knowing what the actual distance is - some of those shooters won't even spend $ on buying some paper targets with rings. We ALL pretty much seem to be concerned with pellet types - weights - consistency - etc. Many of us own a Chrony (a "name brand" but generically used to describe a device used to measure the velocity of a projectile) and are concerned with the velocity of different pellet types and also use the device to diagnose the conditions of our gun's seals. Some of us shoot un-modded guns and others have everything short of a MP3 player embedded in the stock...(hummmmmmmmmm...that gives me an idea!!).
______________________________________________________________________


While there are exceptions to every rule, I have personally noted that when MOST people spend a good deal of money on something like a gun (air or powder), they become a bit consumed by the item and many start to really "get into the experience" and start down a path of learning and seeking info.

A good deal of my friends own airguns, I am not talking about my shooting buddies, just my regular ol' buddies - that is an important distinction. They own airguns ranging from ol' .177cal. 760 Power Master bb/pellet guns on up to Gamos in the $99 - $150 price range. I think that it is important to note that while some people want a real "bang'er" of an airgun, the AVERAGE person just goes to a local Sporting Goods "Chain" store like Big 5 for example or WalMart-K Mart and buys something off the shelf. So, of my regular ol' buddies, the ones that spent over $99 on their guns are considered by the group to have "expensive guns"...those same boys think that ((( I ))) am just plain NUTS to spend what I do on airguns. I am not bragging and don't want to sound like an ass, but some of my airguns that I have owned cost more than some of those guys cars. The point is that to them, an airgun is just a gun for backyard plinking and pop'en Sparrows up in the trees - and to REALLY go and "spend some BIG BUCKS" with them is to buy RWS SuperPoint pellets at Big 5 sporting goods and not their usual deformed lead poop-balls at Kmart that are ghastly in quality and inconsistent as all get out. They would very likely just put their guns in the corner and forget about them if they needed a new seal/seals as they wouldn't know what was wrong in the first place and surly would not know where to get parts for them if they cared to fix the problem (that is about the time that my phone rings with the offer of free beer and BBQ - LOL.

I have a neighbor who has his Gamo BigCat 1200 that is keeps behind the door of his garage...I don't know WHY he does it, but he stands the gun up with the crown on the concrete (I think so that he can grab it by the grip on the stock as he flys out the door to pop Pigeons...but still...aggggg...I offered to give it a deburr/lube/and a new seal for free, but he just couldn't see as that would make any kind of difference.

My point is that unless you have sooooooo much money that a $400 gun might as well be a $4 gun, when you spend as much money on an airgun as some do on a 30-.06 or even a cheap used car, well, you tend to what to keep it clean and well kept and in good repair. Yeah, the internet has made gathering and exchanging information easier and airgunners, especially AMERICAN airgunners, are finding that there is a whole "nother" world out there where airguns and airgun performance is concerned, unlike the Europeans who have known that for decades!

Again, I don't didn't mean to sound like an elitist airgun snob (meaning that if your gun is not English German Swedish that you and your gun don't count - that is not true at all). I just PERSONALLY believe that when the average person has the option of buying something and has two options, cheap or expensive, IF you extend your finances and go for the expensive option, it tends to mean more to you and you will probably be SOOOOOOOOO proud of the item that you will be inclined to learn all that you can about it and you will be more inclined to take care of it.

It is just like a kid who's parent's buy him something...he PROBABLY won't take as good of care of it as he would IF he had to really save money and buy it for himself...it was exactly that way when I got my first car...the parent's bought me a 1983 Firebird in early 1984 when I got my Driver's Lic. I took good care of it for awhile BUT....LOL When ((( I ))) bought my first car all by myself, I had to scrimp and save like a (can't use THAT word here ), I took GREAT care of it and bought a shop manual for it and checked it's mechanical condition to the point of being nutty about it...then came the mods...carb, high volume fuel pump, monster tranny, etc etc etc....

Ok....enough said other than to reiterate my apology if I sounded snobby and offended anybody as it was not my intent.

I thank ALL of you for the great opinions expressed on this thread and many others...extended dialog and debating anything, even when disagreements arise, is STILL a great way to exchange information and who knows...ya just might learn something or find a new and different way of looking at things...I certainly have right here on this site and I am grateful for it!!

Sincerely,

-Curtis

Ya know we have spent MANY hours on the phone "shooting the Bull" LOL! Snobby?? Give me a break man!! If it were not for the GREAT info you provide here & what I pry out of you on the phone & E-Mail,, I would tend to think your just as much of a dumb redneck as myself!! Dont get more down to earth than you Buddy. Tim.

Now that I have your attention , and you is no snob, let me take just a moment at this wee hour of the morning to say I was not inferring anything about you when I mentioned owners of less expensive guns. Just that price, alone, does not dictate how deeply a person drinks at the old well of knowledge. Agreed, a lot of us here don't just drink, we wallow. Some can be said to have fallen in. But we never drown. Others, like yourself, are always there to pull us out.

My first car was a 1953 Ford (not purchased in 1954 but a fer piece down the Highway of Time.) What the heck was my first airgun? Ashamedly, I've got to scratch my head and think about that one. Oh, yeah. My Benjamin 132 which I bought about the same time you got your 1894. I was shooting the really big bores then - Polaris A3 missiles launched by thousand pound air. Guess I was one of those PCP snobs and didn't know it. I didn't get into other airguns until much, much later. Mainly to shoot indoors when I couldn't get to the range. One thing led to another and I found myself dabbling in airguns the same as in firearms. Just another branch on the collection tree. Like my firearms, my guns run the gamut from fair to great. I have one of your Beer Buddy specials, a Gamo Shadow 1000 Varmint Hunter which I picked up cheap and, if I only had one, believe it or not, it would do ok. Travesty, I know. But I redeemed myself with a couple three Diana's.

Well, it's off to the sack. We have our annual community yard sale tomorrow. Who knows? Maybe I'll find a Walther 55 for ten dollars. Then I can be one of those outre snobbs and post pics on the Vintage forum. (He, he.)

I know that you didn't mean that I was a snob'ster...LOL...and I didn't take it that way, or in any negative way for that matter you rascally ol' number cruncher you...-giggles- Just kidd'en partner...

I just wanted to make sure that I didn't seem that way and I couldn't think of a better word than that!

I was just trying to say that if you were to buy a generic 10mm wrench at Harbor Freight & Salvage instead of the 10mm Snap-On that you might.....no...let's see

I was just trying to say that if you pickup a fat lady at the bar at 5 minutes to 2 AM instead of the tall blonde at 2 minutes to 5 PM that you might be willing to....nope, that's not a good one either...Hummmmmm

I was just trying to say that if you buy single-ply toilet paper and Lava soap for the back of the toilet insted of Aloe Wipes and Peach Sented Soft Soap for the side of the Bidet that you might be inclined to....aggggggggggg

Aw heck, sometimes I say things with the best of intentions that later makes me feel like I have my ....



I give up! I didn't mean nutt'en.....

ROTFLMAO

Night guys.......poof gone

-Curtis

PS...Thanks for the kind words Tim!! I owe ya a case of Newcastle!! -L- Half are mine!

Curtis said:

"Some of us own dial calipers and talk about "ctc" measurements at 10 to 100+ yards when the average back yard airgunner just puts a can up or a piece of paper with a mark on it and shoots, never knowing what the actual distance is - some of those shooters won't even spend $ on buying some paper targets with rings. "

James replies:

Some of us do both. As far as not knowing the distance I find that it's much better practice since ranging distance is a skill most who strictly shoot targets are lacking in sadly. I can't imagine anyone in this day and age buying "targets with rings" as one can find literally hundreds on the net that can be printed for pennies each. When my son and I went to the range last Sunday to shoot rimfires he was amazed at the selection of targets he had to choose from. I don't feel how one chooses to shoot makes one an average airgunner or an elite airgunner.
I think all of us in this sport need to spend more time trying to be inclusive rather than trying to determine who fits what level or class of airgunning. I realize your statements wern't meant to be "elitist" but any newbie or lurker may read it differently.
I have been following your tune of the 350 and I am quite impressed by what you are doing. I am looking forward to the finished project and the range report to follow.

Respectfully
James

I hear ya...I need to hire a PR guy for my posts at times...*L*

Ya know, I don't shoot at rings with airguns that much unless it is over 75 yards and I am trying to achieve some specific.

I am a mid to long range hunter, and for what I hunt (Jackrabbits to Coyotes in the flat open desert), my kill zone at 50+ yards is the bottom of a soda can. If a person can hit anywhere in the bottom of a soda can at 50 yards shooting offhand on rocky ground, then they are doing good enough to hunt ethically (IMHO).

I practice in the desert with soda cans (the bottoms) that I set up but NOT at measured distances unless there is a reason to know the distances. I use a laser range finder for most of my hunting shots and I know my mildots like the back of my hand. I actually only pull the trigger 2-3-4 times out of maybe 8-10 possible/potential shots as hunting ethics is a HUGE issue with me (Grandpa taught me that)...if the shot isn't right I don't take it.

As for the content of my post, well, all that I can say is that for working on all types of guns (air and powder) for over 20+ years, it has been my experience that people who spend more $$ on their equipment are much more likely to learn all that they can about it and take better care of it...simple as that, but I am not saying that somebody who has a lesser item WILL automatically abuse it or not care to learn about it.

My buddies that have cheap guns will actually throw them in the back of the truck and let them hippy-hopp all over the bed and they don't care...(their words are "Dude, if it get's ****ed up, it only cost 60-80-100 bucks so I'll buy a new one, who cares. My buddy Jared is a audiophile - he has a Bang & Olufsen home theater system that is over 20 grand (which is NOT expensive for a B&O system!!). Now God forbid that ya get too close to it because he gets all fidgety, freaky and nervous. Larry sat a Scotch glass on the receiver to pick up a potato chip that he dropped on the floor (another big no no at Jared’s) one time and it was like the end of the world was at hand, but he will let his gun flop like a fish in a truck bed! LOL

It has just always been my experience that, especially when you financially extend yourself and get something better, people have a tendency to "mother hen" it and treat it with "kid gloves"....that's all....shrug

It is like with me personally, people can eat, drink, or smoke in my van or truck, but not in my 2 seat’er! –LOL- See, no coffee cup holders or ash trays:

I forgot to thank you for the kind words concerning the 350 tune....I honestly and sincerely appreciate it!

-Curtis

My bonus was a little too small this year so I 'll hold off on that new Maranello I wanted I need to work 52 weekends/mo. at my job instead of 32, and 70hrs vs. 60, to get a bigger bonus I 'm told. I must not be adhering to the corporate trend too well I guess..

Curtis, I think you meant James, not Jason

Jason used to hang out here and he owned a 350, but haven't seen him in a while.

Good stuff, good analogies, good conversation flowing, and now we are talking about cars. Would could be better?

Thanks Harry...

Yeah, I tease Steph that if she every leaves me that I'll just move my "red head" from the garage to the bedroom...ROTFLOL
Then I tell her that a redheaded Italian is probably a "better ride" than a Teutonic Frog...-look'en over my shoulder as I type-
The final killer is when I tell her that I have had the redhead in my life longer than any other lady and that isn't gonna change...LOL Ya know, if she ever sees this I am going hand deliver your 350 and move into your spare room...L

Anyway, she is cool but a bit small for me - remember, I'm over 6'6" so my legs are a bit cramped on long drives. She is a 1991 348TS that I got a drop dead GREAT deal on in 1992 down in Newport Beach, Ca. - Dad did a monster-nasty-bad Federal case for a certain N.B. business owner and "walked him clean" with no fed. prison time - no nothing(the poor guy was looking at two 40 year sentences and a 26 year sentence which would have run consecutively - 106 years total on the three charges), so I got the benefit of the favor/gift that the guy offered him as a literal "lifetime of thanks" so-to-speak as Pops thinks that anything that is smaller than a 1962 Caddy is a "Japanese School Girl's Car" - typical Texan - LOL. I'll tell ya the whole story bout the case on the phone this weekend...it is amazing the way that some people can have a great business and turn to "other things" for quick and easy cash when they already have plenty of it anyway.

I picked her up off the lot and got to peel the window sticker off of her myself...really awesome feeling; I still have it in my file cabinet. I've managed to keep her up with ZERO dents/scratches, custom cut&tuned Tubi exhaust...the ONLY bad spot on her is where I had a quart of oil in the trunk that got squashed with the corner of a little U1 SUN server that slid over and mashed it into the inner wall of the compartment during a little corner-de-stab-de-gas...the dang lid popped off and some oil spilled out but not a really big deal. The carpet kit in the trunk compartment is black so the stain doesn't really show...I removed it and degreased the heck out of it with Simple Green and cleaned the compartment.

I'll tell ya something that people never can understand....I had a 1992 Porsche C2 that I liked better. Not as fast and not as sexy, but it was TOTALLY comfortable to drive (with the seat all the way back it was TOO FAR back - amazing for a small sports car). It was fast enough to get a STIFF ticket on the freeway (at 90-100 mph it really did feel more like 70-80 mph...was smooth as glass). Steph won't get in the 348 with a dress on as it is so low and the kickplate on the door sill is so wide that she gives panty shots getting out and HATES IT - totally and completely hates it! LOL It cracks me up that a girl would rather go out to dinner in a dang minivan then a Ferrari...even worse is that she is European...is that bent or what? LOL

Hey, she is coming up the stairs with our morning coffee…gotta go and get this browser closed…will call ya after the coffee!!

-Curtis

"I likes my Ferrari but my cheapo Porsche was a bit nicer ride." Must I post this?

J. your post is very interesting. I plan on buying a nice 10 meter gun in the future. Hopefully a nice Diana 75 or something similar. But those guns (Daisy and Crosman) interest me. As you probably know by now, I am not a high speed magnum type and have been enjoying my tuned R7 for the past couple of days. I can shoot bulls eye, one right after the other with this nice light rile. I can only imagine what a tuned match gun could do. Personally (IMO) light smooth guns hone the shooting skills better than any other gun. I am going to start looking at the Daisy and the Crosman guns. Please keep up your post as they are very informative. Please tell us more about 10 meter shoots and the different kind of guns you see in the matches etc. Thanks for the pics and please post more of them.

Thanks
Dave@vabch

As defenders of tiny animals, I can't help but love Citizens for Understanding Nature’s Tots Society as they stand to protect the innocent victims of cruel animal humor, and I am sure that they are simply horrified at the idea that such cruel words and thoughts could ever exist in a civilized society as I most certainly am!

Now look what you have gone and done

of our Divine Creator!

He became so upset that he pooped himself and had to take an ever-so traumatic bath


Such disregard for the innocent makes me feel like


I shall once again join forces with C.U.N.T.S and stand up to your verbal and visual malevolence


You may gang up on me as you “cry havoc and unleash your dogs of war”,


and hope that I shall wane under the crushing weight of your cruel wit


but in the spirit of Machiavelli - “I’ll be brave enough to fight off the wolves!”


You can’t escape to your country condo or hide in your hillbilly houseboat…


…and spend time in front of your computer constructing your acts of evil wit !!!


I'll plant covert agents in the most unlikely of places


so that we can keep an eye on your every movement !



And if you try to speed off in my Italian Stallion….


I’ll release the picture that your mother gave us to the National Enquirer!


Me and the C.U.N.T.S have special places for people like you….


and if you’re lucky, we’ll let ya bring your garden with you!
LastMcSupper.jpg

Oh yeah, ya may consider yourself to be smart, cleaver, perhaps even a bit HIGH minded


but if ya mess up in there, ya may find yourself having your last supper


and you will never LIVE LONG AND PROSPER


So if you wish to feel free as a bird…


ya better read between the lines to find something else to occupy your time


and don't think that we will soon forget your evild deeds...we'll be keeping the heat on ya!


So let Mr. Whiskers relax and enjoy himself…


….and for the love of humanity, keep your threats to yourself and QUIT TRYING TO SCARE KITTY!!!!!

They do say imitation is the highest form of compliment.






And I don't want to get into a spat with you.




But, I must point out that I usually share many of my inanities (is that a word?) with my kids. This thread is, err, well.....




While some may see you puns as clearly as you...





Others may take a bit of exception with kitty.






And, insofar as your surveilance threats are concerned, well, I have powers at my disposal.