Model48 (Login Model48) from IP address 69.150.176.184
Two Questions here:
1) Whats the proper (read safe) way to clean the bore of the 48? I've used the rws flexible cleaning rod from the breech end in the past. And then read about break barrels snaping closed on fingers. God forbid this would happen with a 48 because I'm most certain it would just lop the end of your fingers off....
2) Regarding accuracy.....I recently became quite frustrated while shooting groups at 20 yards..... Group sizes where marginally acceptable (1"ish or slightly less) But when I started, The pellets were literally hitting 2-3" apart. Now this shooting session followed a Boy Scout Merit badge session wherein the scouts had to re-zero the scope for 25 foot targets. They were shooting 1-hole groups at that range. I kept track of the elevation changes (mostly elevation, one or two clicks windage) that were made and then set the scope back to my settings for 20 yards after wards. Thats when the trouble began.....I had thoughts that something had shot loose - no. I thought may be the scope was broken, doesn't seem to be....I'm wondering if the scope needed some time to settle back in..... I also read the post on the 350 shooting like a shotgun and wonder if a crown problem exists (however it was shooting better than this before and I dont think anything has happened to the crown......Finally - My springer technique is not the best, but not 2-3" off at 20 yards.....Help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! At one point I almost tossed the gun in the pool I was so frustrated! Lastly - I did try shooting some gamo magnums for groups - not too good - at the start of the session and they were dfficult to get in the breech, very tight and almost gritty feeling. The finish on these pellets is far inferior to the RWS's I usually shoot ( I just wanted to try a heavier pellet to see how things went.) Could the gamo's have dirtied up the bore in just a few shots (maybe 10)?
I use a length of trimmer line that I heat up one end of it and push the heated end into a nut of appropriate size for the caliber: 3/16" for .22" and 1/8" for .177"
This creates essentially a bore-pull-through. Trimmer line is VERY tough and almost unbreakable, make sure you heat it with a candle from 3" away, as the plastic it is made of can get on fire and still not reach the plastic-deformable temperature.
There are commercial pull-throughs, but I can easily make as many as I need in all appropriate lengths for each gun in about 5 minutes per pull-through.
The other end is cut slanted, so that the patch can be inserted from the pointed end.
To clean, you only need to bring the cocking lever back one or two notches on the beartrap mechanism an insert just the tip, from there you push on the line and it will come out at the muzzle. You then pull from the muzzle and you can do that even with the action closed.
So this is a very safe method of cleaning, as you never actually cock the gun for cleaning.
If you keep the line real clean, you do not need to worry about the line eroding the crown or the muzzle rifling, if you get the line dusty or sandy, then you should use a bore/crown saver which can be made from plastic tubing or delrin or any other material. If you are real careful about where the line is at every point in the pull phase, you don't even need a saver. JMHO, I am sure a lot of shooters will disagree with this, but I have never used a crown/muzzle saver. I DO USE A LOT of attention to what I am doing.
Nappy - cloth squares of about 1/2" square are perfect patches for cleaning bores, start with Goo-gone for cleaning, proceed with JB for de-leading and finish off with pledge for lubrication.
As to the accuracy issue, I would clean first and then look at other stuff.
I know about pull through cleaning systems, just had not seen on for air rifles. My push through system works well, just keeps my fingers in the breech longer than I'm comfortable with....
Regarding the accuracy issue, my gun seems to prefer the superdomes over superpoints and meisterklugeln (sp?). During the aforementioned session with poor accuracy I was shooting from the bottom of a tin of 500. Last pellets at the bottom level of the tin. They've been banging around in there while in my pocket being transfered from the house to the range (read: backyard). Could it be that these last pellets have a few too many miles on them and are not shooting too well?
for a test, I got a new tin of superdomes during the week and will be trying them next, then a good cleaning. Then the "old pellets" and then the "new" to see if there's a noticeable difference. Prolly not, but it will be worth doing the test.
just make sure that the weeder line is hot enough but not in flames. The size is important, as it makes the "knot" that pulls the flannel patch.
Accuracy might degrade in as few as 10 shots IF the leads of the pellets are substantially different one from the other. No two leads are EXACTLY the same, alloys change not only between brands, but between batches in some brands. Some alloys will have traces of antimonium, or tin, or silver, or even gold (parts per million, nothing worthwhile). In very strange cases, I've seen traces of arsenic bismuth, mercury, and other heavy metals. Some of them change the firing characteristics of your barrel drastically with just a little use.
That is why I like to lube the pellets with Pledge, this gives me more control over the contact surfaces between pellet and barrel.
Deformed pellets usually shoot rather well if the deformation is in the head, if the deformation is pure deformation of the skirt, then you might get away with it. If pieces are missing, then you are in trouble. Old pellets sometimes exhibit lead sulphate or lead oxide that can be harder than normal lead, so oxidized pellets should not be used.
EACH BARREL is a law unto its own, you need to find which pellets the barrel likes and stick to those.
First off I don,t own any RWS rifles that like RWS pellets.My suggestion would be to try Crosman Pre.14.3 domed or Beeman Kodiak match pellets.These might not be the aal time greatest pellets for your rifle but should work out alot better than what you,ve been trying.
Tighting your stock screws has already been mention but it,s very important that they are snug.I nice light hold on the rifle and always have your hand laying between your stock and the shooting bag.If this does,nt help then we,ll look into other possibilitys.
The stock screws are tight. Everythings tight and solid as a rock.
I would like to try some of the pellets you mentioned, just dont have a retailer near by. I suppose I'll need to get some online. There's no "adult" airgun retailers that I know of in my town except the big box stores, and they only carry one or two brands of pellets.
IF?? the 48 was shooting 1'ish at 20 yards and then all HELL broke out then you have a dirty barrel, loose screws or scope mount problems (sliding mount on the rail)
it is NOT the air gun
an accurate air gun does not become in-accurate after 1 or 1,000 pellets all of a sudden, there has to be a reason
about "Crown" problems, did anyone drop the air gun head first into the ground? if not then it is not a crown problem
pellets DO NOT dirty the bore after 10 shots
start by looking at the screws, re-check the mount in the rail and clean the bore
warren
and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"
I use a 52 which is the same gun quite a bit and one other thing you might check is the front sight, it has a small set screw holding it on I know the blade has one also and check them both. I have seen my gun start shooting a bit poor if the front sight gets loose, has nothing to do with using the sight itself but for some reason it can effect the accuracy of the gun. I have tried RWS pellets and though they are not as good in these guns as the Kodiaks as mentioned they still should shoot pretty fair at 20 yards. I clean my barrel with a Otis flexible rod and start it from the muzzle down, when I get to the breech area I take a thin wire hook and pull the loop end free and clear of the compression tube, then put your patch in and pull it from the breech on through this keeps your fingers out of this area completley.
You didn't mention whta type of scope. I recently tried a new scope (higher power & larger objective) on my 48. It was good for about 40 shots then started scattering. I examined the scope and realized the front was coming apart.
A BSA 2-7 on a Beeman mount. Rock solid. I had trouble a while back with the eyepiece unscrewing - drove me nuts til i figured it out!!! Got everything else tight - no problems there.
Just got done with a barrel clean and went out and put about 20 pellets down range at 20 yards - Piss poor accuracy!!! I dont know what going on but this rather expensive rifle is about to become a boat anchor!!!! By the way, I'm shooting with the artillery hold. I think I've got that down b/c I have been shooting good groups with the rifle for some time now........Until recently. This rifle has been the most frustrating experience with any type of firearm I've ever owned!!!
Or, if you don't have another scope you can try right away, just take the BSA off and shoot it with open sights. I know you can usually get better groups with the scope than with the factory open sights at 20 yd, but if the scope is the problem, comparing the open sights groups with the groups you're getting now with the scope should tell you something.
I don't like the open sights on the M48, but I sure can get better than 3" groups with them at 20 rd. Just try it, you've got nothing to loose.
Hows the shot cycle? Does it feel consistent? Is it harsh sometimes, and smooth others? I wonder if the gun isn't sealing well. That'll wreck havoc on accuracy.
If you have access to a chrony, see how consistent the velocity is.
Good luck,
--
Dan (in NY)
I do think I'll take the scope off and try it with iron sights. I have another scope but its a 30mm tube and the c-mount for it is the pits....(another story)
Is there a good way to check for the seal other than with a chronograph? (I dont have one.)
If I remember correctly, I thought I read someones post saying to put your hand over the breech (silver loading area) while firing. If you feel air escaping you have a leak.
Has the gun ever shot accurately for you, and what do your groups look like? Are the shots scattered about the target, or are they strung mostly up and down or left and right? The answer can tell you much about whats wrong.
Its possible that the scope is the main problem. BSA isn't really known for durable high end optics. The scope may be solidly mounted, but the 48 will break a scope like that in short order. Something may have come loose inside and is allowing movement of the reticle from shot to shot. Is your scope an AO model? If not you may be experiencing parallax error, that is the plane of focus does not coincide with the reticle plane. This is more apparent at longer ranges, and unless you place your eye in exactly the same spot every time you won't hit the same place twice in a row. The scope needs to be adjusted properly for the ranges you are shooting at.
To start, I would shoot some targets using the iron sights and try a number of different pellet types. Some dealers have pellet samplers, a box with a small number of a bunch of different pellets for just this kind of thing.
There are several other possibilities, such as a broken spring, bad piston or breech seal, etc but you'd need to chrony the gun and possibly do some disassembly to find out for sure.
How often do you clean the gun? If you do it frequently, stop. Just shoot it for a while, see what happens. Airgun barrels don't need to be cleaned that much. Many times cleaning it will screw up your accuracy, and it can take a while for it too shoot in again. Have you ever used any sort of lubrication anywhere on the gun, including spring or chamber lubes?
There is another possibility, that is maybe more practice is in order. The 48 is not an easy gun to shoot and has a lot of recoil. Hold is important, but consistancy is more important. You need to hold it exactly the same way every shot or it just won't shoot as well as you expect it to.
Yes it has shot well. Yes the scope has an AO and it is set right. No I dont clean often, approx every 1000 pellets or so. Groups currently (really cant be called a group) and are in the 2" range with no vert. or horiz. stringing, just all over the place. I know that BSA is on the low end, but no one sells/sold a air rifle rated scope except the BSA when I was trying to scope this gun. No recent lubes etc. Yes the 48 recoils and I think I've got the hang of it. This gun already ate one scope (not rated for airguns, although recommended at the store where I bought it.) Mount is the Beeman 5039 and its a rock.
took the scope off today and was putting pellets in sub 1" groups no problem. Thats about the best I can expect at 20yds with my eyes (LOL - thus the need for a scope) Looks to me like the problem is the scope! I'm going to go get another scope today and see what happens.....
Thankjs for everyones input. I'll let you know if the new scope does any better......Looking at the Bushnell Trophy/Banner 4-12 thats supposed to be rated for "adult break barrel air rifles". We'll see how it goes.....
OK - per above, I shot iron sights this morning. Instead of putting the 2-7 scope back on I thought I'd give the original scope and mount I bought for the gun another try. The Scope: RWS 6x mil-dot illuminated reticle. The Mount: RWS 1 piece C-mount.
I tried this mount before. The original crushed the scope tube b/c of a tolerance prob from the factory. Umarex replaced both promptly and free of charge. The second one was tried one time - did not crush the tube, but never got tight on the rail. I tried it again today. Got zero'd, a bit of iterative tightening of the MANY screws on this mount - And I was shooting one hole at about 17 yards. As before, the mount seemed to loosen on the rail several times (causing me some concern) but I loctited everything and then shot perfect bullseyes in each of the 5 spots on a piece of paper. I'll let it sit overnight and then shoot her in the am to see if things stay tight....
Lessons learned - My 48 will drive tacks!! My RWS scope kicks butt (like the mil-dot for a pellet gun)!! Now if only the c-mount will do its job (this is yet to be seen)!!!
And finally, the BSA is going back to where I bought it to see if they will take it back, warranty it, take it in trade for something (perhaps that Bushnell Banner or Trophy).
If all goes well there will be no reason I cannot guide a pellet right into the ear canal of a tree rat. That was the purpose of getting this rifle in the first place!!!! I'd been considering adding a lower power rifle thinking that it was me having trouble with a magnum springer.....It appears that is not the case and I can happily proclaim that I've gotten my springer technique down acceptably....
If the c-mount does not work a Beeman 5039 with 30mm rings will be on order!!!
Also - I checked the BSA for paralax at about 30 yards and that wasnt the issue....Must be something loose inside...
My M48 is a tack diver also, a little jumpy but very accurate.
As per your scope choices, I have both the Bushnells you mention; the Trophy and the Banner. The Trophy has been on a HW77 for about 1.5 years and the Banner on my M48 for almost a month. Both have over 1,100 shots and still no problems. My Banner is not even a month old, but since it costs half of what the Trophy does, it makes me a little nervous to have it on the M48.
I am planning on getting a Bushnell Legend 5-15x40mm with Mil Dot reticle to replace the Banner, which I will then mount on a HW30S. However, my apprehension is only based on the fact that the Banner costs half of what the Trophy costs, not because I have proof that it is a lesser scope. In fact, and I am not sure if this is the case for all Banners or only mine, but mine is both sharper and clearer than my Trophy, so go figure.
By the way, do check the Hawke Airmax and MapPro scopes; they seem to be high quality scopes, tough enough for springers. Maybe you can find them at a good price in the states. I will probably get one at one point but, right now here in Canada, they’re way more expensive than the aforementioned Bushnells are, so I’ll stick with the Bushnells for now.
I could be wrong but I thought when looking at the Bushnell website that the trophy and banner have the same stock/model number. Kind of made me wonder what the difference between the two was. I need to double check that...if they're the same, I'll go with the cheaper of the two...
I am not a clicker, and these scopes don't have the right turrets for that anyways, so I just set them where I want them and they stay there. Therefore, I can't really compare the accuracy of their adjustments. For me, so far, they've performed about the same, although the Banner seems a little sharper. But that might only be luck of the draw.
Well I went out to do some shooting Monday morning. Group size was opening up to 1/2 inch or so after about 20 shots. I grabbed the scope and - low and behold - its loose on the rail!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I just mounted the scope (using my 3rd!!! C-mount for this gun.) 1st c-mount - wrong tube size (my fault.) 2nd c-mount nuts at the bottom of the rings damaged the tube. Umarex replaced both. In the interim, I bought a beeman mount and BSA scope. Evidently the BSA has shot craps (see all of the above)
Now for the new c-mount holding the 6X42 ilum mildot Diana scope.....THe c-mount worked loose. Upon inspection, the recoil pin (in the rear hole on the rail) had damaged the hole in the rail. But not towards the rear as you might expect, but to the side. I decided to fip it around and hang the pin off the front of the rail - But Guess what - the base of the c-mount, when fully tightened did not even grip the rail!!! The only reason it had been tight before was because tightening the base screws was drawing the recoil pin up against the side of the hole in the rail (hope ive described all of this well!)
Now I've got a buggered rail, a worthless c-mount, a scope I absoloutely love (6X Diana), a rifle that shoots like a lazer and no way to shoot it accurately (aging eyes). Its either back to the Beeman mount with a new 1" tube scope (Banner/trophy at the top of the list, or a new mount with 30mm rings. The Beeman 30 mm is $134. Im afraid to try any more adventures with the RWS mounts!!!!!!!
when you finally get it shooting right, it is going to taste like heaven, after all this Calvary, he he!
Actually, you can try the Leapers mount suggested above. I have one on my M48 and it's stayed solid for the last month (close to 700 shots). The only thing I don't like is that it places the scope WAY HIGH, even when using low rings. But at least it's stayed put, and it corrects barrel droop to boot!
You can also try something like this: http://www.canada-shops.com/Stores/siarms/c223003p16494505.2.html
It is a bit longer than the Leapers, so when installed it overhangs the Diana Mounting rail by almost 1/2". However, that means that the furthest forward screw falls right at the front of the rail. So when you tighten it, it squeezes the front of the mount, preventing it from moving backwards from recoil. It doesn't correct for droop, though, but it doesn't need separate rings either, which makes it both cheaper and more solid.
I've had the Hawke mount on my HW77, mounting a Bushnell Trophy, for about a year with absolutely no problems at all. I even installed the whole thing on the M48 while waiting for the Leapers mount and it never moved, and never gave me any problems. And, as a bonus, it sits quite low on the rifle, making it way more comfortable than the Leapers.
One last thing: have you tried flipping the locking plate on the C-Mount upside down? I know both the Leapers and Hawke mounts can be mounted on either 9mm or 11mm rails, simply by flipping the locking plate. I don't know if the C-Mount works the same way, but if it does, that may fix the problem of the mount not tightening over the mounting rail.
I pulled the trigger (no pun intended) today and ordered the leapers base for the 48. I Also ordered the low leapers 30mm weaver rings. I ordered the high rings as well (at less than $10 its hard not to) in case the objective did not clear on the low rings. My scope has a 42mm objective - the leapers base almost takes care of that and with the low rings it should not be too high I hope. I would have gotten the medium rings as the back up but they were out of stock a Pyramid.....What size is the objective on your scope that the low rings still have it too high?
You're right - when I finally get it going I'll be like a kid in a candy store. I had the Diana 6X on it when it was new, but the c-mount failed before I got going. I then put the BSA on and got good accuracy for a while. But I was really excited when I tried the latest c-mount (mostly one hole groups at 20 yards) until it started to loosen.
I did try flipping the clamp over. I tried putting that mount together so many ways (same with the one with the nuts that extened up into the I.D. of the ring) that I could probably take it apart and put it together blind folded. In spite of my lack of luck with it, it appears to be a good design. When looking at the clamp it appears (barely) that it might have been intended to be reversible for different size rails, but it slides right off either way.
Thanks for you input and suggestions! I'll let you know how it turns out. new mount should be here this weekend!!
I've had luck with the Beeman 5040 mount on my Model 48. This thing has been rock solid since it got mounted two years ago. I just checked the screws last week as I tried a new scope and they're still tight.
I've had luck with the Beeman 5040 mount on my Model 48. This thing has been rock solid since it got mounted two years ago. I just checked the screws last week as I tried a new scope and they're still tight.
Both my Bushnells have 40mm objectives and 1" tubes.
September 4 2008, 9:38 AM
The objective of my Bushnell Banner, sitting on low Leapers rings on the Leapers DN460 mount, is about 9/16" over the M48's outer tube. So I'm pretty sure you can even mount a scope with a 56mm bell, and still clear the outer tube with this mount on the M48.
By the way, the Beeman mount mentioned above looks almost the same as the Hawke mount I have on my HW77, and it probably is ( http://www.hawkeoptics.com/mounts/fixed_9-11mm.htm ) Except, I got my Hawke for less than half the price the Beeman mount costs from Pyramyd (see my previous post above, where I talked about it). And the Hawke even comes with strips of tape to prevent scope movement within the rings and to prevent scratching. Very high quality mounts.
Joe, I had the beeman 5039 (i think) with the BSA scope that was on there. That is truely a rock solid mount and I had no trouble with it. I would've liked to use it with the Diana scope (which i really want on there) but the Diana is a 30mm tube. The Beeman 30mm mount is exceptionally pricey!! I've got my eye on a Panther which which I'll purchase a 1" tube scope for. Then I'll have the option of putting either scope on either rifle....
The Leapers mount looks promising - Since it was specifically designed to address the issues of droop and recoil i expect it to be just peachy!
Juan, sounds like it will ride a bit high on my gun as well then. I probably could've left the high rings off the order, but didn't want to be sitting there w/o an option if the low were too low!! The Beeman was a bit high as well. The Mildot reticle will come in handy for dealing with that however!!
Héctor J Medina G (Login HectorMedina) 189.164.156.108
Try the BKL
September 5 2008, 8:15 PM
It is made in 30 mms. It is made with a droop, and it is the most solid mount made.
Adjustable is only good if it does not move from where you adjust it. The old C mounts, if the recoil pins were turned "dog-faced" were darned good.
A custom-drooped and compensated BKL would be the ideal ticket, but that is, indeed a pricey proposition. Drooped BKL's are good enough for most purposes.
I purchased this 48 (my first adventure in adult sirguns) along with a RWS scope that came with rings. The day I got it I sighted it in with the iron sights. The next day I planned to mount the scope. I (casually)made the comment to a friend that has owned a 48 for years that scope mounting and I don't get along. I mounted the scope with the supplied rings the next day and....learned about barrel droop. Long story short (some of which is detailed in this thread) it's maybe approaching a year later and I'm still trying to get this thing scoped!!!!!! I've been planning to sit down and write a "Scope Mounting Disasters" essay to document this adventure because, at this point, its almost become comical!
Tomorrow I should receive the new Leapers mount and rings and will take the next step in this adventure. I will be wearing my Indiana Jones hat and have my bull whip on the belt just in case things get ugly......
The Leapers base/rings came in today. For a grand total of $27 (not counting tax or shipping) I 've never had as painless scope mounting effort in my life. Everything lines up well - rings to tube, ring halves to each other, and tube to the bore!!! I loosely fitted everything and it all looked good, so I loctited all the screws and snugged it up. I'll let it sit overight and shoot it tomorrow afternoon/early evening. This thing is even more like a rock than the Beeman 5039 I had the BSA in.....
Just a couple of commments: 1) I was worried about the low prices of the Leapers rings and bases. Been down that road before. But I must say, these parts are as well made (and probably better) than rings I've paid 2-3X the price I paid for these (Think c-mounts). Way to go leapers. 2)I was a bit upset that I paid for 2 day air on an order I placed last Wednesday and they showed up today.....Oh well, better luck next time on the shipping time.
Did I mention that this scope mount seems like its a rock!!!! Can't wait til tomorrow!!!! Sorry to bore you all with this saga - I've just never had such difficulty getting a scope on a gun before....
Leapers droop mount, leapers rings (low), RWS 6X illum mil dot...Assembled and loctited last night and let sit until I decided to play hooky from work this afternoon.
One hole groups at 20 yards when I do my part. It's shooting so well that I was playing with the effect of different holds on group size and POI! Tomorrow I play with different distances and the use of the mil-dot reticle....
This is the end of this thread and hopefully the end of the disasterous adventure that I've been on to get a scope on the 48. No loosening of the mount or rings, no gradual increase in group size (more pellets shot today than with any other mount/scope combo) without any changes or loosening of anything.
I think that the Leapers base is a great product and the leapers rings are top notch!!
I have the Leapers drooper mount on order for my model 34 but the rings were out of stock. Does this mount use any standard weaver style ring?
The BKL 257's I used to mount the scope on the 34 initially, started slipping yesterday. I hope the new Leapers will solve this. I actually had it ordered last week and canceled when they (Pyramid)told me the rings were out of stock but decided to reorder the base yesterday based on the BKL 257's slippage.
When it arrives I will do a mini review on mounts as I have used a Beeman 5040 on a HW 97, BKL 260 D4 on a 52 and soon the new Leapers on my 34.
I just kind of got diarreha of the mouth about my scope woes.....kind of thought people would be saying "enough already, we've all been there!"
As I understand the leapers literature, any weaver ring will work. They just recommend 4 screws for joining the two halves of the rings together.
My thoughts - hold out for the Leapers rings. The tape they put inside the rings work like a champ! I tightened up my rings "just past snug" and shot a bunch today without any movement of the scope in the rings. Without the tape, theres always a balance between too loose and too tight (either one resulting in damage to the scope tube either from sliding or cutting into the tube. With the tape, which is more of a fabric, there appears to be a greater range of tight, but not too tight.
And a final thought - The low rings are still quite high. I've got a 42mm objective and theres a good 1/2-3/4" inch clearance of the objective to the barrel. As was posted here, the base ads quite a bit of height itself. Perhaps if you go directly to the Leapers website they give some recommendation regarding ring height and objective diameter when using the droop base.
Good Luck and shoot straight! (the second wont be a problem with the leapers base/rings)
I should define "one hole" as a ragged hole with all shots touching. The best appear as maybe two holes. The worst open up a bit but are still under 1/2 inch ctc. Thats all when doing my part. occasionally I fail to follow through or change my hold mid-group and open things up to 3/4 inch.
