(Login samsdad1142) from IP address 69.208.149.133
This is my very first on this forum, so Hi to all. BOY there is a wealth of knowledge here.
I have a RWS-52 a HW-35 and a (real) Beeman P3 as I have been reading the first 10 Pages of this forum My question: is ANY GUN (springer) made that will deliver 900 to 1000 fps?
I don't have a crony. to check velocities but I am shocked at the manufacturers advertised velocities compared to what you guys measure. I think this is faulse advertising. What does a new person have to base there decesions on outher than their advertising.
I have been thinking about a RWS-460 In .22 because I wanted a 1000 fps, but I have been reading even after John in PA tunes one up they are still in the 800fps bracket. And my model 52 In .177 instead of 1100 fps it may get around 900fps if I am lucky. This is a bunch of horse hocky!!!! any suggestions?
Thanks to all, keep posting, and I will keep reading
Mike
This obsession with "1000fps" is the common cause of inaccuracy in airguns. Pellets do not like to be driven at that velocity, they become highly unstable. Ask any Field Target shooter & they will tell you the best velocity range for accurate shooting is between 800 to 900fps. Pellets are designed to operate at subsonic speed, which is why PCPs with energy levels above 30ft/lbs are now being shot using solid bullet-like lead pellets to give them more stability at supersonic velocity.
always question what others would have you believe, especially if they are after your money!!
Focus on accuracy before FPS in this game.
Remember we are talking about air powered guns not fire arms.
Then again,If we are talking about springers, most guns are hard pushed to produce 950fps with a medium weight pellet of .22 calibre.
At 820fps, the same gun would probably be at its best compromise between being both accurate and shootable.
If you want higher fps , get a Pre charged Pneumatic.
HTH
If you find a springer that wil do 1000fps with 22 cal hunting ammo & still shoot stright please let me know. Even if there is one it wont do 1000 for long. All springers loose power over time. The more you tweek the spring the faster this happens. If you hunt & leave the gun cocked for long periods you can loose 100fps in no time. My QB 25 went from 660 fps to 780fps after shimming the spring & tune. After hunting season it was down to 720. The good news is it seems to have settled there & is dead accurate. The only long lasting power in a springer isnt a spring its a gas ram, and I still dont know of one that will put out 1000fps in 22 cal.
Ok Sixto these are the springers in .22 that produce over 900fps with middle weight pellets Gamo 1250 does 930-950,then come the Webley patriot and Hatsan125 at about 910-930.Power though as the other guys all ready told you isnt everything,accuracy is what counts.
I have the Walther Falcon Hunter (Hatsan 125) in .22 and after a lube tune, it is doing right about 900. It is still harsh and crude with an awful trigger but it is a cannon and can shoot hunting quality groups, with attention to technique. I have never tried the 1250 but understand it is in the same league.
So this sucker is pushing hunting weight pellets at 900 with severe recoil, considerable scope risk, and major cocking effort. I would give up the 1000 fps quest and get a decent rifle that is fun to shoot and can hit reliably in the 800 fps range. The 1000 fps hype may sell some guns, but it isn't real and it isn't necessary. They have PCPs and .22LR for that. I would rather shoot my RWS48 (.20) all day and kill stuff just as dead.
in the minds of the typical consumer. that forces the manufacturers to test with the lightest pellet available. they don't talk about acuracy.
my nephew has a gamo varmint hunter. i told him i got a diana 52. first words out of his mount was, "how powerful a gun is that?". i told him i was detuning it to around 800 fps. he sounded disappointed. i had to explain to him that you have to go subsonic in order to achieve any acuracy. he had no idea. he
just thought that velocity was the only measure worth knowing.
unfortunately the manufacturers have gotten caught up in this and it is hard
to reverse that mentality. they de-emphasize velocity at their peril.
My V Mach tuned Tomahawk is getting 840's with CP's ( .22 ) and that's
plenty of power for me. I find I'm liking the mid to low range springers
more these days any way.
the chase for the 900-1,000 FPS air gun is never ending with a springer
YOU WANT 900 FPS then go PCP high end and you will get it in SPADES but not with a springer
these are some of the air guns I have and been tuned by the following tuners:
RWS 48 in .22 cal, 840 with CP's, PER. John in PA
Bam 28 in .22 cal, 820 FPS with Gamo Hunters 15.3 gr. PER. Mike Melich from the Yellow Chinese forum
RWS 460 in .22 cal, 800 FPS with CP's, PER. John in PA
34 Panther, SUPER TUNED in .22 cal, 740 with CP's, per Howie at the GTA forum
these Tuner's are real people that tune for the love of the sport and they all say the same, "stay with the 650 to 700 FPS airgun with 14-15 grain pellet, you CAN,t miss the Barn at 35 yards"
accuracy over power is everything. if you cannot hit the Barn from inside the Barn with 900-1,000 FPS so then what have you accomplished
warren
PS: compared to my M34, M40 and R9 which shoot 650-700 FPS and accurate, these BRUTES on the TOP are nothing
and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"
Unfortunately, the hype does tend to disappoint buyers
December 8 2008, 3:50 PM
"You don't sell the steak, you sell the sizzle." Advertising 101 applies to air guns as well as any other product. Most manufacturers are using ultra-light pellets to achieve stated velocities, not those you would be better suited hunting with. And such high velocity guns, fed a steady diet of those anemic pills, will wreck themselves in short order since the guns are designed around a heavier pellet to provide some resistance, thus cushioning the piston as it pushes the pellet out of the barrel.
Pellets which go over 1000 fps and into the supersonic realm rarely maintain accuracy. The diabolo, skirt-waisted design doesn't lend itself to transconic buffeting (sonic boom when you pass 1080), so any gain in energy is lost to inaccuracy. The PCP guns can shoot more bullet shaped projectiles, so they are not as subject to this. Remember, even .22 rimfires are most accurate below 1080 and they are shooting flat based solids.
As noted, if you do get a .22 pellet up to 1000 fps in a springer, you will pay the price. It takes a lot of spring/piston to drive one that fast and the energy which is not totally transferred to the rather small pellet must go somewhere, like into the compression tube, stock and your face/shoulder. Makes for an unpleasant shooting experience, akin to shooting a .375 Weatherby over and over. Plus it's the dickens on scopes and mounts. Hardly an equitable trade off for the marginal increase in power. The Weatherby is design for big, dangerous game. No thousand pound squirrels in my neighborhood.
Thirty years ago the FWB124 and HW35 were considered the upper edge in powerful spring air rifles. Now they are middle weights. Shoot one, though, and you will see that they still serve handily in the field. Lighter, better shot cycle, more like a nice 25 caliber deer rifle where a 7mm Remington Magnum is overkill.
If you do want a hot .22, then pay the most you can afford and start with a quality platform. One poster here says his Turkish gun is still a bit of a beast after a tune. Myself, I would look for a nice 34 for a break barrel. Not super-fast but easily adequate for most hunting. More power? Try a 54. A bit heavy but probably the best pellet combination for that power plant which is, in itself, quite powerful. Enough so that you really won't need more.
I have alot of rifles and they all fall into different categorys. I have my 460, B28 and Discovery for serious knockdown power. I have my Pro Sport,B40,Long Bow,B26 for medium power target shooting while still enough power for small game. Then I have my RWS 24 and 92 for a relaxing shoot in the back yard. Some days its just nice to shoot something that does,nt hurt you to cock it and you're still amazed by the accuracy.
A few weeks ago I was shooting my 460 at my one inch spinners at 45 yards. It was hitting them so hard that they would,nt reset again and I was really impressed with the accuracy. I did,nt always hit the dead center of the spinner but I went ten for ten and I was happy. So happy that I thought maybe I did,nt need to own my Pro Sport any more. I brought my P.S out for a test just to be sure I was,nt making a mistake if I sold it. Well it turns out theres a hugh difference between these two rifles. The P.S might not hit the spinner as hard but, at forty five yards I could pick out the center of the spinner and place my shot on it every time. I quickly figured out that both these rifles have there purpose. If I wanted to dispatch a large Ground hog in my back yard with a body shot the 460 would be the rifle. If I wanted to hit him in the eye I,d probably go for the Pro Sport.
If you want a honking .22 springer, best to put the money into a platform like the 460 BTW, how are the 350's in .22? Should pack a fair wallop, themselves.
In addition to the transonic buffeting that you already mentioned, there is also the eventual transition back to subsonic speed which can actually cause even more wobble to the pellet. You don't hear about this phenomenon with high powered cartridge rifles because they usually hit their targets while the bullet is still traveling above supersonic speed.
Yes, there is a lot of knowledgeable shooters here, and on top of that, they are true gentlemen; which is, probably, most important.
Getting to your point: Yes, MV's are a lot of hype from the manufacturers. You are better off reading and heeding real-life results as seen here.
What should be foremost in your mind should always be accuracy. Airguns cannot kill by shock, like some firearms, and if you are only looking at paper punching, then trajectory of the pellet obeys a lot more aspects than MV. Pellets are very complex projectiles.
As to your question about if there is ANY spring gun that will deliver 900 to 1000 fps with a real world pellet, the answer is yes. Go here:
As you can see, the JW 80 will deliver 950 fps with a 14.3 gr. Crosman Premier pellet. MEASURED with an Oehler Chrono, I have no reason to doubt JW's figures.
Now, whether this is worth US$2,500 or not is up to you, and to John Whiscombe, as I heard (several times) that he would build no more guns. Reportedly his guns were, apart from real powerhouses, very accurate.
My D 460 delivers pinpoint accuracy (pigeon's heads) out to 50 meters, launching JSB Expresses at 850 fps. for 23 ft-lbs. of Muzzle Energy, and probably more important, more than enough killing energy out to 80-90 meters. Was it worth the US$600 I paid for it? yes!
And this is a fact of life. You can get 80% of the result by spending 20-30% of the price. To get the 100 % result, or the 20% additional results, will cost you 4 times what you spent for a starter.
Coming one notch down in POWER, my D54 will shoot the Crosman Pointed Copperhead at around 800 fps, and that gun has ample accuracy to shoot 10 out of 10 in a silhouette match; and it is recoil-less (to the shooter). It retails here in México for about US$800.
I hunt, shoot and have a ton of fun with these MV's, I simply know them and then forget about them in the field. What counts is that both guns are impressively accurate and, to paraphrase Warren Page: "Only Accurate Airguns are interesting"
My suggestion to you is to get a chrono, because a chrono tells you a lot of what is happening in your gun and knowledge is always better than ignorance. But once you know the results and that the gun is in a generally healthy condition, go for accuracy. Nothing else matters.
Let's face it. Most airgun purchases are not from people like us. 90% of the purchasors buy the airgun, use it once or twice and then forget about it for the year, or years, to come.
If you see GAMO's ad campaigns, at least now they tell you that they are using ultralight pellets (like PBA-alloyed Raptors and other such non-lead stuff) for their MV's. From there you need to take out 25% off for the lightest lead pellet and still another 15% for the real life pellets that will show accuracy, long range energy retention and reasonable spring life expectancy. So 1,300 would come down to 1,000 and then that would be true-to-life-sized down to about 850.
That we now live in a world with very little value placed on honesty is one of our problems.
That lack of honesty is proudly labeled as "salesmanship" is one of American marketing true shames.
First of all, you do NOT want to go much over 1,000 FPS. Break the sound barrier (about 1,050 fps) with a .177 pellet, and god only knows where it's going to turn up, so stay away from the Gamo Raptors. That said, Gamo 1250 Hunter .177: 7.9's go supersonic; 10.5 CPH high 900's, 20 foot pounds of energy, and a VERY flat trajectory. Daisy 1000 (picked up at BPS day after Thanksgiving for $70.00): advertised 1,000 FPS; well over 900 with 7.9 CPL's. Keep reading; keep learning!
I have some old rimfires (1930's/1940's) that probably won't cut much better than an inch or 3/4 at fifty yards, but they are hunting guns. Rabbits and squirrels within their intended range are just as dead if they could do 1/2 MOA. So, a cheap gun that hits hard and still within a kill zone at a reasonable range achieves its purpose. In this respect there is, IMO, too much emphasis on accuracy.
OTOH, those cheap guns listed at 1000 fps are certainly capable of doing in the nines with 7.9 grain pellets ---- until the excess lubes wear off and they quit dieseling. It's what they will do after breaking in that really matters. Seen several posts on some of these "magnum" guns that shoot solidly out of the box for several hundred rounds and then develop twang and harsh behavior from that point forward. It's the difference between an expensive gun and the lower end, as Hector pointed out.
ALL ADVERTISED FPS's ARE "UP TO" WHICH MEANS THAT THE LIGHTER THE PELLET THE HIGHER THE VELOCITY. THE "UP TO" MEANS THAT IS THE MAXIUM AMOUNT OF VELOCITY THAT SPECIFIC RIFLE IS RATED AT...AND USUALLY YOU CAN REALLY CLOSE TO THE ACTUAL FPS THAT IS ADVERTISED... WITHIN 125FPS DEPENDING ON THE WEIGHT OF PELLET THAT IS BEING USED. PEOPLE THAT ARE NOT GETTING THAT NEED TO CALIBRATE THEIR MACHINE.
IT IS NOT FALSE ADVERTISING BECAUSE IT IS A RATING OF "UP TO" #### FPS.
ALL SPRING RIFLE COMPANIES US AN "UP TO" RATING DUE TO THE FACT THERE ARE NUMEROUS DIFFERENT PELLETS AVAILABLE THAT ARE DIFFERENT WEIGHTS WCHICH WILL SHOOT AT DIFFERENT FPS's.
"The Extreme is adult sized in every way from the precision steel bull barrel to the extra large power plant. This rifle demands respect with the 58lbs of cocking effort spring piston that will drive lead pellets at 1250fps and PBA at 1600fps!"
The Big Cat 1200:
"The Big Cat will go the distance for 1000s of rounds at hunting and target shooting in any weather. With the power plant able to yield a sizzling 1200fps and match grade accuracy with PBA ammunition." [They talking kitchen matches?]
The Whisper:
"This New Model will change the way you think about hunting with airguns! Offering 1200fps with PBA or 1000fps with standard lead, your sure to be ready for the elements. " [Take note that's 1000fps with standard lead. I'm assuming a 7.9 grain pellet. Can they really do that? And a rated velocity should be the average speed for a statistically significant sample size.]
From Pyramyd Air:
RWS350:
"RWS Diana 350 Feuerkraft. Ideal for hunting small game & plinking.
Limited quantities in stock! 0.177" 1250 ft/sec" [Must assume they are talking a lead pellet here.]
Funny, they list the TX200 in .177 as only 930fps. Is it really almost ten percent weaker than a 34?
Don't believe the numbers? For only $10, yes, that's ten Yankee dollars, PA will test YOUR gun. Here's how:
"10-for-$10 Test! $10.00
10-for-10. For just $10.00, you can buy peace of mind that you won't get a lemon!
To make sure your gun shoots right out of the box, our techs will:
* Remove your gun from its box and fire 10 shots.
* Ensure that the gun cocks reliably for all shots.
* Verify that the trigger functioned reliably for all shots.
* Enclose chronograph tape.*
* Make sure your gun doesn't leak (PCPs only).
* List the air pressure used to shoot your gun (PCPs only).
* Sign & date a certificate stating when the test was performed.
* List the name and serial number of the tested gun on the certificate.
*It's normal for spring-powered airguns to have erratic velocities with the first 25-150 shots because factory lubricants burn off and cause a dieseling effect inside the compression chamber. "
I particularly like the last statement. Don't those ten shots fall within the first 25? So, what's that prove beyond it's easy to separate you from your ten simolians?
Used car dealers call if puffing. Down on the farm they have a different name for it.
