disasembled the scutzen 46 this evening. not too complex but it will benefit from some careful de-buring and lubing of joints and such.
i had to remove the front sight piece to re-engeneer it so the next step was natural. this rifle has the T05 trigger block so removal was easy with my rube goldberg spring compressor. (you didn't know rube was in that business did you?)
the spring is 36 .125 coils. the diana 52 spring is 33 .130 coils. the spring fits rather loosely inside the piston. the d52 spring is a better fit. the spring guide from the 52 and the 46 look and measure identicle in length and diameter. there was about 1.5" of pre load (guessing).
the diana has a plasic casement on the trigger group but the shutzen does not.
same trigger though.
now.for the barrel. for all intents and purposes the barrel does not appear to
have ANY crown. in fact the cut is sharp and bured. could this influence accuracy? possibly. i think it needs crowning. this may explain a few flyers.
most of the slots and cuts need de-buring. i will take care of that as well as
polishing the piston. i on't have any buttons on hand so will not do that right now.
the piston seal appers to be the same size as the large apex seal i bought as
an extra for my D52. the apex seal is actually about .010 larger than the stock seal on the 46 but is the same thickness and the opening in the middle is the same on both. the stock seal edge is rough although a seal test reveals it seems to be sealing fine. i think i will replace this seal with the
maccari apex and size it carefully.
for now i will re assemble this rifle with the stock spring. i could cut the old 52 spring so there is not much pre-load to see how that works out but i will soon order a JM GRT kit. i don't want a broken spring end and diana springs are brittle.
i will be workng on this for a few hours tomorrow. first order is to fix that
screw hole in the front sight/cocking rod holder. while this is all out i will probably reinforce the cocking arm since it is hollow. tis is to prevent bending in the future.
Larry said: The spring is 36 .125 coils. the diana 52 spring is 33 .130 coils. the spring fits rather loosely inside the piston. the d52 spring is a better fit. the spring guide from the 52 and the 46 look and measure identicle in length and diameter. there was about 1.5" of pre load (guessing).
Interesting you have the coil diameter to one thousanths of an inch, but the preload is a guess - did you mic the springs or found specs somewhere?
I found the 46 and the 460 use the same spring guide, so I'm guessing that they just use that guide on everything!
Larry said: the diana has a plasic casement on the trigger group but the shutzen does not. same trigger though.
Another standard for current diana appears to be the compression chamber ID size so the piston seals are all the same. The sliding compression chamber guns have a bigger diameter tube to accomodate the mechanism. (i.e. the sliding compression chamber slides in this bigger diameter tube; the 46 piston slides in their tube). So, the 52 needs a plastic spacer around the trigger to make it fit. Maccari gives you a spring guide with the proper diameter washer for the tube you have; RWS gives you the same size for each tube. (but in a 46, they are both the same size).
Good luck with the new toy. I'm not sure if mine will get out today (4 degrees F, but I could open a window in the breezeway....)or just shoot 10 meters in the basement!
with a vernier caliper. i did not measure the pre-load. just eyeballed it.
the maccari grt spring will be 33 coils of .128. shorter than the standard 46 spring but will have thicker wire. the guidewill fit properly. i believe it also comes with a tophat.
one thing i notice with the 46 is the very long air transfer tube due to the
breach set up. this is the equivalent to seating your pellet over an inch into the bore. this is where some ineficiency comes from and the gun gets less
velocity for a given level of swept volumn and spring size. in other words the air is not being compressed as tight as a break barrel like the 34. i think this could result in some piston slam if you are using a too light pellet. i am wondering if there is something to be gained in this area. on the other guns i
i did a lot of work on the rifle last night. i polished a lot of the contact surfaces and de-bured the cocking slots. i also polished the piston and the
very end of the piston stem where it enters he trigger group. just to break
that hard edge. not where it is held by the latch plates but the end. this is
designed to prevent a hang up on the latch plate as the gun is cocked. i took the cocking link apart and polished baring surfaces and will moly them on reassembly.
i don't have any buttons so will not do that this time.
today i will hone the inside of the action tube to get rid of any little burs inside the cuts. this so i don't cut the maccari seal that i will size and use.
i notice that the air transfer tube is very long in this gun due to the flip up breach. i tink this is the area of ineficiency in this gun since the air is not compressed as tight behind the pellet. it costs velocity compared to a break barrel with a similar swept volumn. i wonder if this gun could benfit form a SMALLER diameter transfer tube inside that flip up breach. with this setup it is like seating your pellet over an inch inside your bore.
i worry about the sealing efficiency of this breach set up. lots of things to
go wrong. i have not done a "tissue" test.
i also have to deal with the front sight/cocking rod issue. i have been "mind engeneering" some options inside my head. willo keep you all posted when i finalize that
i will be making an insert for the cocking rod. everyone says these bend over time so an insert to stiffen it may be in order. i may use drill rod of the
proper diameter. serious overkill. this is my thinking though. the fix for the
cocking rod holder involves making a metal sleave to fix those stripped plastic threads where those little screws go. this is a weak point. i am thinking of steel tubing that goes all the way across. i will tap that for the screws. will JB weld it in. should be plenty strong and not fail again.
i will have to notch the cocking lever so it will seat properly since the
tube will go all the way accross. this is one reason why an internal stiffener inside the hollow cocking tube is important. to add strength. just an idea. once the cocing lver is closed it won't show. it will only involve a small notch but it might create a stress rizer at that point. using drill rod will make sure it is plenty strong and i won't have a failure there. am i making this more complicated and over engeneering this?
i can find some hollow aluminum rod at a model store i know of. or would you use solid? i need to make sure the walls are thick enough so that i don't cut through when i notch it all. hollow will be lighter although i guess solid aluminum is very light anyway.
i will use JB weld. that stuff is amazingly strong and flexible enough. i use it to attach nickle silver ferrels to bamboo fly rods. those things undergo millions of flex cycles and the JB never fails. if you ever want to remove a ferrel you have to machine it off!
as a matter of fact i will be changing the spring to a macarri grt kit. his springs tend not to be stronger than stock and are usually easier to cock.
the MAIN factor resisting bending or flexing is the intermediate layer's resistance to crush.
I do not know about JB Weld, but I do know that Accraglass has great crush resistance.
A solid aluminum bar inside the cocking rod would be the max re-inforcement because solid aluminum cannot crush, and again, the accraglass has great crush resistance. Using a tube will allow for the crushing of the aluminum tube's hollow as a first failure point.
JMHO
I would strictly re-inforce the plastic front sight piece to allow for better rod detentes. I do think that you are overcomplicating the thing, but, it is JMHO.
Larry said: am i making this more complicated and over engeneering this?
I would say Overcomplicated: yes and Overengineerig: no. As I have posted before, Overengineering is a marketing concept meaning it costs too much. It is my belief you are focusing your efforts in the wrong direction cutting the cocking rod and reinforcing it. From an engineering concept, the best fix is to replace the sight/cocking rod holder with a metal assembly so the cocking rod balls work against metal slots, not plastic ones. Failing that, the immediate fix to your stripped thread problem is threaded metal inserts on either side of the plastic assembly, not straight through and cut the cocking rod. The rod is the same strength as the one on the 460 and I haven't had or heard of any 460 rod problems. I did see one post on the Stutzen rod bending, but somewhat discounted it due to never having any problems on my 460 or the 4 (now 5) 46 one 460 cocking rods and I have.
well i am still messing with the screws that hold the forstock to
January 17 2009, 3:59 PM
the cockingrod holder. what i discoverd is the hole on one side does not line up with the threaded hole in the cocking rod holder. i think this may be due to the stock shrinking in that area. those screws are 3.5 millimeter. it is only stripped on the side where it does not line up. i picked up some 4mm screws of the same length but with hex heads. works well on one side without
any inserts. what i need to do is slightly elongate the hole in the stock so i can properly line up the screw.
i think the reason it fell out in the first place was because it was never actually screwed in in the first place. i would have sent this gun back but
i was affraid i would never get another one. anyway it will take a little
gun smithing to make it right.
i did the lube tune and de-bur. also replaced the seal with a JM apex. much better quality. just for kicks i use a diana 52 spring i had taken out of
my diana 52 when i tuned it. its a new spring and the same coil count and about same wire diameeter as a grt. the "twang" is gone. gun cocks smooth
but makes a rachet noise when i return the cocking rod. must be the shoe
rubbing on the larger diameter spring.
Putting the 3 stock screws in loosely and then lining the front two up and starting them before tightening the front screws. I had to back off on the first three from what I normally do to line up because the front ones didn't line up initially. Just a thought....
i just filled the screw holes with steel wool and JB weld and used self tapping crews in place of the original ones. i will remove the screws when the jb is semi set in a few hours. that way they won't be stuck and when the JB sets up i can screw them back in. will see how that holds. if not i will resort to the insert.
that set up is a very poor design for such a nice gun.
also, what do you think of no crown on the barrel? have any of you stutzen owners looked at your crown? my gun is absolutely flush with no crown. sharp edge.
i will try the roundl headed screw and valve lapping compound method.
well, this is what i am doing now about the screws
January 18 2009, 3:47 PM
i picked up two 8-32 wood ankers. they are brass, have heavy threads on the
outside. took two of them to span the distance so i screwwed them together with
a long 8-32 screw. i drilled out the holes to fit the insert and glued it in with JB weld. once the jb weld is hard i will file out the center to accomodate the cocking lever. once it is filed i will pin the bottom by drilling through the thin secton that spans the fixture. tiny pin but its kind of the belt and suspenders. hard to explain but the pin will go straight up into the ceiling of the tube (as it sits on the gun.)
i put it all back together this morning. it seems to be holding but the question is will it hold up over lots of shots. using two 8-32 wood anchors is not the optimum solution because the stress of each screw is acting on a smaller surface. i need to find one that is as long as the two combined so that i have a soild piece spanning the tube, like in the link above. that is the best solution and i will look for one. i think the wood anchor is the best bet because its outside threads create grip on the plastic instead of the smooth surface of the aluminum piece in the link. i could not pin it because there is not enough meat before intruding into the barrel.
the cocking lever drop seems to have been solved as well. i opened up the little slot where the balls go just slightly. the balls were right at the end of the slot and not engaging fully. i slightly lenthened it and made it ever so
slightly larger so the balls are deeper in the slot. a few shots and it did not
drop. how this will hold up long term i don't know. i also made a little shim that i placed between the wood and the side of the cocking lever slot. that tightens up that plastic piece somewhat and helps with the cocking lever
drop issue.
all of the screws will have to be locktighted of course. i am sure those front screws absorb SOME recoil even though most of it is handled by t he stock screws and trigger guard screw. perhaps screw cups for those two stock screws is a good idea.
i think the best material for this insert would be bronze. strong enough. brass is pretty good as well but a little softer. i think aluminum is desitined to fail sooner or later. maybe the ideal would be
an insert threaded to 10-24 instead of 8-32. better bite in the threads and less likely to strip out. it might require a piece that is larger in OD than 1/4" but maybe not. a good machinist could gin up a batch of these inserts in quick time. it would help if they were threaded with some course thread on the ouside as well. installing them requires a drill press so that the hole can be drilled out with its center perpendicular to the verticle axis of the sight.
all of these 46 stutzens are going to fail in this area sooner or later and
will need this. maybe John in PA could set up to do them and folks could just send the frontis piece to him and he could do the work and mail it back. i don't have any real machine shop to do it in any volumn.
once again, i want to emphasize that it is imperative that the piece extend the whole width like in the link above. if not the tension from the stock screws will eventually pull the instert out of the plastic. also, part of the
"hold" on the cocking lever comes from the squeeze provided by the screws holding the stock to the frontis piece. i noticed that as soon as my screws loostened up the cocking lever started falling.
i am also thinking that a metal band inserted and glued into the front of the
cocking slot where the balls are. this could be a piece of bronze tubing maybe 1 " long and sloted to accomodate the cocking lever. the cocking lever is .50" diameter per my vernier caliper. you would have to machine the inside of the cocking slot to accomodate this thin walled bronze tube. the inside diameter of the tube would have to be maybe .010" larger than the cocking lever diameter. holes could be drilled or cut for the ball indents. this would be a permanant fix for the problem of dropping cocking levers.
once i have it figured out i think the fix will cost less than 5.00 in parts and will be a long term fix. it won't take much time to do once the procedure is perfected.
JC, yes, something like those. thats what i used but needs
January 19 2009, 1:16 PM
to be about an inch long and then trimmed a little. it might have to be made from some tubing of the right spec. brass or bronze. being threaded on the external is not absolutely a must but better than smooth. if i could find
the right tube i could run a die over it to give it teeth.
this is why it needs to be one piece. however the cocking arm is not falling
anymore. maybe opening up the slots the ball goes in is the fix so that the ball is properly aligned and can sit in the hole deep enough. this is not the permanant fix but ok for now.
the gun is breaking in and throws an occasional flyer. i have not cleaned the bore so it may be dirty. i generally "shoot them in".
i will go looking for inserts again this evening. lowes did not have what i
need. i will try Ace.
the fireing cycle with the D52 spring is somewhat harsh. i will change back to the original spring till i get the GRT kit. the gun has a balance point that it likes and i think i have found that. i lay it across my forearm about
4 1/2 inches in front of the trigger guard.
If you intend to get a 52 kit for the 46, please be aware that the 52 kit will have a bigger washer on the guide than will fit in 46 main tube (sized for the bigger diameter 52 main tube because of the sliding compression chamber).
If you get the one for the 46, it works great to smooth the gun out, but expect the same fps when it breaks in. I think I like the Apex seal better, I'm still experimenting JM kit with and without Apex seal....
if i remember right the set GRT spring was quite a bit shorter than the original D52 spring which is in turn shorter than the 46 spring. that means a lot less pre-load and probably much easier cocking. also a smoother firing cycle. it does have thicker wire than stock 46.
back when i was even more ignorant than i am now i bought just a grt spring
for my d52. not realizing i needed matched guides. then i bought the other diana kit he now makes. i the GRT srping sitting around so i cut it down to
8 1/2" and put it in my HW50s. worked great. it is so smooth. perfect for
backyard plinking. the guides are working fine. no twang. no vibration. just smmmmooooth.
for the screws i ended up doing exactly what sylvan did in the link that i
provided a few of post back. works very well. looks exactly like his. i would have prefered brass or bronze but could not find it. i glued it in with JB Weld. there is enoght protruding from the side that the wood does not contact the frontis piece. it rests on the aluminum. that way there is no danger that
you pull the insert out while tightening screws.
i also used a .012 round jewelers file to open the little slit that the balls
rest in. the balls are at the forward end of the slit and do not engage well unless you open this up enough to engage the balls. it works quite well.
as i said. half done. i am going to make a metal insert from some .50 id tubing
to line the cocking arm slot. the forward end will have detents to hold the balls on the cocking arm. once fitted i will glue it in with JB Weld. this should make a very long lasting repair and prevent wear. i have some stainless
tubing but would prefer something easier to work. we will see how it works out.
that brick of a front sight caught my attention. i used a triangle jewelers file to cut a v notch in the top. this will help me center the sight blade on
a target. eventually this won't matter because i will scope this rifle. i suppose i could extend that grove dowh the back of the sight and put some white
paint in it al la Hector. (yea, i found your post burried back in the archives. your influence has a long life).
i put many rounds through the stutzen. tightened up the stock screws but left the forstock screws that screw into the aluminum insert somewhat loose. not real snug. rifle seems to like that. groups are tightening up. once i am finished fooling aroudn with tuning and ssprings ans such i will locktight everthing.
after cutting those detent slots with the .12 dremmel cutter the rod does not drop and in fact its harder to pry out of there since there is nothing for me to grab onto. i think i am going to make a short little brass plug that fits in that hole in the end of the rod and extends out about 1/2". just something to grab onto making it easier to pull the cocking rod down. there is no need at the moment to make a metal insert. in fact the plastic may wear better than metal since it is self lubricating and this is very strong plastic. a metal insert may make it just TOO tight anyway.
the firing cycle/recoil with that D52 spring is just too much. it makes the rifle somewhat hold sensative. needs to be smoothed out so a lower power spring would be better. soon i will order the GRT. i will be satisfied with
750 or so fpe for this gun. i have a 52 for power.
BTW, pyramid has more stutzens in stock. no 22s pf course.