At what point in time do you think the Diana Rifles quality suffered the the most due to cost reduction,short cuts and production changes it order to be more profitable???
During the 70's and early 80's most Diana rifles seemed to be of greater quality in all phases of production,,,much deeper shiny bluing,beautiful wood,no internal metal burr's and everything was made of steel including the sights,triggers and the plastic under lever holding devise which is constantly failing on the Stutzen(What ashame) All in all the earlier rifles were of much better quality .
I am not only referring to Diana air guns when I ask this ,,This suffering includes all air guns from Daisy to Weihrauch / HW and I also know this is caused by the bean counters trying to keep the stockholders happy and the company profitable in a ever changing throw away world..
BBGun Bob
SE Mich.
.177 Hi-Score 808(Diana 15)
Tuned by JM himself.22 Diana 48 "My Favorite go to Shooter"
Tuned .177 Diana P5 Magnum With 2-7X32 NcStar P-Scope
Air Guns Create Questions????
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I don't have anything that old, but I observe of my 6 RWS guns, the 4 from 1999 to 2002, seem to just shoot with no problems. The 2 from the T05 vintage have both had problems. I was wondering if it is their complexity (300r had a loading pin break and the 460 had a number of problems)or a change in quality control.
Good morning Bob,I enjoyed our talk on the phone last nite. About your ? my thoughts are when they went to the TO 5 trigger the quality went down.I am sure the bean counters had a lot to do with that plus people resist change as a rule.
Gary
When RWS became so lame as NOT to start an agressive marketing campaign to complete with the junk that now sells every where. Go into a Bass Pro shop and get no info at all about RWS. The gamo's and the cheap Beemans are all lined up for the public in a nice rack on a major isle. The RWS's sit in a lonely corner behind the counter. All of the clerks boast of the Gamo guns and How Jim Chapman took down a wild hog with a Raptor pellet. Try to get literature sent to you on the RWS web site, or their full glossy catalog, forget, they just e-mail you and tell you to contact Umarex, and you know how that story goes. Umarex needs to get into the stores and start marketing the damn gun as a fine German made air rifle. RWS should start doing some advertising about how this is a quality gun and show the differences They should do honest ads, and tell the public not to be lead by cheap guns advertising phony high velocity speeds with shameful trick pellets.They should not succomb to building cheaper rifles to complete with this crap that is on the market. This sport is getting ready to bust loose and RWS better get with the program or Gamo is going to eat their lunch! Just mo!
Just kidding,I have to agree ,Bass P,Dunhams,Sportsmans Warehouse,and but not as bad Cabelas all the same.Just for the hell of it one day I played dumb and asked which would be the best air gun for hunting and killing rodents(rats),,,This was at Sportsmans Warehouse the knuckle head said by all means a Gamo Hunter Extreme "it shoots 1600 FPS!!!" and will take care of wild boars if you want.I just couldn't hold it,,I busted out laughing and said what happens when a pellet breaks the sound barrier??
With a dead serious face he said nothing,Then I asked about a Diana 350 or 460 Magnum,"Oh You mean a RWS rifle???"Yes!! Please.. He told me there behind the counter but there way over priced and under powered compared to a Gamo."You can get a Gamo with twice the power and a scope for $100-$200 dollars less,at that point I had to leave the store I was getting shi@&% on my shoes.
Sincerely
BBGun Bob
Air Guns Create Questions????
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Bob I think that quality has shifted, not gone (long)
January 19 2009, 8:44 AM
Let me be BRUTALLY frank here and I apologize in advance for the long post.
Plastic parts don't bother me. I carried on duty some of the first "plastic" rifles and pistols (Steyr SSG and Glock) that were widely issued to the world's armies. To say that I, literally, owe my life to those two would be a gross understatement.
That nothing is perfect?, nope, nothing.
That all can be improved? yes, up to a point. Remember always that good is at odds with Better and Perfect is at odds with Great.
That we are now seeing rifles with plastic parts and some issues? yes, definitely.
But, had we seen in past a gun that would TRULY break the 22 ft-lbs barrier with the surgical precision we now see in the 54? Or the 24 ft-lbs barrier with the smoothness of shot cycle we see in the 460?
And, comparatively, prices for Diana guns have not gone up, they have always been somewhat pricey.
The world, complete, all of it, has changed.
And if we look into long range economic figures you can see that the current state of the economy started about 20 years ago, when the capacity to produce outstripped the capacity to consume.
The logical step was to produce cheaper things to increase the number of things sold.
ALMOST the whole world missed the cue that the trick was to improve the capacity to consume by increasing prices, paying better wages and allowing the market to do the rest. They only remembered from their "Economics 101" class the last phrase.
The exception has been industrial Europe. Where labourers became more specialized and better paid, handwork became synonymous with class and luxury; and, in general, except for those banks that got pulled into the US real-estate debacle and US market drop, most other things are going along smoothly.
What follows are MY numbers and in no way are they to be construed as approved or abetted by M&G, they are just MY estimates:
Out of M&G production, I estimate about 50% stays in Germany, that 50% that is comprised mainly of "Pentagon F", those guns that are sold to schools and clubs for instructional shooting.
Of the 50% that gets exported, I estimate that 50% goes to the US. The rest of the world mainly goes with limits on the power or on the barrel configuration (the 350 is produced in a full power, smoothbore barrel for certain markets, but that is another story and another gun).
So, . . . the best we can gripe about here is 1/4 of production. Now fraction that into the MANY variations and models and you come out with production numbers that, quite frankly, amazes me that they still turn a profit! Not a huge one, I can assure you; not by US standards, anyway. But they are a conservative company that is in the business for the long run. They want their products to still be here 20 years from now.
UMAREX may not be what we would like them to be, but they are successful in their own right and niche, and they HAVE purchased Walther and Hämmerli, so we cannot argue with their bread and butter lines.
In all this madness, Diana (M&G) has still managed to come out with new designs, and new guns and things to keep us reasonably happy, like the 350, the 460, the 300, the various variations in stock, barrel length and sighting systems, the various calibers, etc, etc, etc.
Barrels are still made well, guns still shoot accurately and powerfully when the model so requires, and the factory is still looking to its advanced users for opinions and steering.
That coming from a German company, is quite wonderful. Yes they are somewhat stubborn at times, and yes we do not see eye to eye in many things, but I assure you that the clinders and pistons and seals and levers and in general, the guns that are manufactured today, are manufctured to tighter tolerances than ever before.
In THAT sense they are much finer guns.
There is not so much hand - fitting? nope!
The cylinders do not sport much of the hand honing of the olden (golden?) days? Nope!
The triggers are plastic? Yup!
The trigger guards are plastic? Yup!
The lever detentes of the 46 and 460's are plastic? Yup!
Guns come almost dry from the factory? Yup!!!!!!!!
All in all, with proper care and BY-THE-BOOK maintenance, they will be excellent guns for years and years and years to come.
¿You see, Bob?, MANY of the above mentioned things are not really that important, and what some regard as flaws from the factory, actually make up a "program" that if followed carefully and cautiously, will make you enjoy a gun for decades.
DO I THINK OLDER IS BETTER? Yes! But "older" applies to my 2 years old D-54 and to my one year old D460 as much as it applies to my 20 years old D52!
We can get into all sorts of technical details and experiences, but the bottom line is that we like our airguns the way we like them and if anyone built an airgun to our EXACT specs, we would still find a flaw in them.
I am perfectly happy with current guns and offerings and when the new ones get unveiled at IWA, I am sure I will find things I would have done differently, and maybe will.
I am really and truly sorry that the general, overall perception is that UMAREX is not responsive. Diana - M&G deserves better, but M&G are honorable persons and will honor the deals they make, even if they do not fully agree to some of the aspects of those deals.
Umarex is a NON-player they are distributors in the Diana world for the USA but there are other influences in everything we buy
like WHO produces them and what materials are used plus the labor cost factor all of this and the finger points to more plastic parts in everything we buy and country of production
remember when 75% of Wal-Mart was produced in Japan and then Korea, Mexico had it going for a while
well now it is China and Why?
because M&G in Rastatt Germany has to survive as a company the same way GM, Ford, Chrysler are trying, we have a world recession or in other words a financial "Meltdown" and companies are trying to survive
look at Croosman with the new Marauder another version of the Disco $499.00 and parts that are made from China
would it surprise you to know that Diana's are assembled in Romania or would you be surprised to know that soon most of the wood stocks' will be plastic stocks regardless of the gun. you will still get wood stocks' but you will pay a premium for them
remember Dustin Hoffman in the movie The Graduate where they ask him what is the new trend and he answers "PLASTIC.s"
enought of my RANT
warren
and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"
Warren, Who say's distributors do not market their products?. I have worked with distributors for years that employ their own "Sales Force" Marketing teams etc! Most quality distributors at least have a line of communication set up with the vendors. I am not a marketing major, nor a Distribution major, but it is only common sense that they should do more than just ship the product. I certainly hope that Umarex at least visits the stores where there products sits in a dark corner collecting dust.Weather or not Umarex is actually doing something or not, I do not know, I am no privy to that info. But for sure, something is missing.
After becoming one of our countrys first billionaires, Henry Ford said it best: The man who uses his skill and constructive imagination to see how much he can give for a dollar instead of how little he can give for a dollar, is bound to succeed.
Thank You everyone who has responded to this question
January 19 2009, 10:53 AM
I have come to the conclusion that 90% of the company's no matter what they make have lost there way.
How?? By catering to wall street and major share holders in there company's.All have looked to more profitability at the cost of quality. It is no longer how good a product can be and how long it will be in service.It has become how many can we put out to the market in one hour,more is better.We have became a nation or world of throw aways where replacement not repair/rebuild is the norm.Even a simple hot water heater that used to carry a 20 year warranty is now 8yrs or 10yrs if you can find one of them(most are 8yrs).
In this process the company's no longer depend on quality but quantity.
At the same time they have lost customer loyalty,this is what happened to the Big Three who thought it is better to build a car coming off the line with little or no design or look-a-likes every 72 seconds instead of 90 seconds. With a great loss of quality to there product.
Maybe this recession will do a positive thing and open the eyes of major manufactures as to what the public wants and not what Wall Street wants.
But then again maybe I'm dreaming.
The bottom line is outsourcing is profit in the short term,,,but as it is now,,, What happens when so many people are out of work they can no longer buy your product???It finally happened they put so many people out of work in the United States it has broke the country.
Thank You Big Companys for your bottom line profit at any expence.You bunch of Idiots I hope you enjoyed your big profits while they lasted at the cost of America's economy.
BBGun Bob
Air Guns Create Questions????
Together we can write the answers!!
Re: Thank You everyone who has responded to this question
January 19 2009, 11:34 AM
Man what a great subject matter. Hopefully I can add something useful here.
Here's where the difference lies for *me*:
Diana's biggest chunk of the US market is in places like Cabelas. In general, places where a dad with a little bit of extra pockiet change goes to buy his kids a nicer airgun than he saw at Walmart when he picked up his prescription earlier that week.
He relies on the knowlege of the guys behind the counter. He expects them to know enough to guide him into an airgun he thinks he can be proud to buy. But the guys behind the counter are trained by every avenue of media and marketing that velocity is king and power is its throne.
And they're too busy to care/haven't been given the training/accept whatever they hear or read if it comes from their bosses. Who knows, maybe there's a bigger profit margin on the other lines than the Dianas on the racks, too.
Counter people mentally compare airguns to firearms. That solidifies their opinions against anything which isn't the top dog in velocity that they carry.
Back to the dad. This airgun is not a lifelong aspect of the shooting sports he intends his offspring to stick with. Heck no. That would be embarrassing. Nope. He's going to teach them to point that damn thing in the right direction and in two weeks he'll be satisfied they're more skilled (at shooting for their ages) than all his friends' little shooters and go pick out that Ruger 10/22 for their next birthday. Whatever airgun he buys will end up in the back of the closet and whether it ever gets shot again or not he'll think he bought only the very best.
We are such a tiny slice in the sales pie of Umarex its hardly mentionable. Of the twenty or so of us, do we have a hundred new Dianas between us that we bought in the last year?
I agree with Hector. The majority of the parts are just fine. But some of the things being dealt with like the seals on the 460, should have been adressed before they came to market. Here's the deal though. We shoot more than the majority of the market buying from Cabelas. Naturally we're going to see part failures where others never may. We're airgunners. Most likely those other people aren't and they might never be.
I think the ideas mentioned above about the business model and pricing according to demand to retain that level of quality is closer than anything I've read so far. Still, considering that the biggest piece of market pie is comprised of Dianas bought merely as stepping stones to "real" firearms, Diana's record of reliability would seem to stand well enough.
Do you guy think those Dianas sold by Cabelas see as much use as Dianas owned by enthusiasts like us?
If the point is to sell lots of product and not have it break in a tin or two worth of shooting, Diana has done well. If the point is to supply a niche in the market the absolute highest reliability and workmanship rifle after rifle, then I suppose we need to be willing to pay for that.
And in a sense we do and we don't mind. We get someone to tune these newer rifles for us (or do it ourselves) and we're perfectly happy. Better yet, we probably will be for a very long time.
Sometimes older is not always better. Leather seals, for example, while forgiving, aren't as efficient as the new synthetics and require more maintenance. Plastic parts aren't so bad. Many of my older guns have stamped steel trigger guards. While plastic guards can crack or chip, sheet metal guards get scratched, dented and rusty. Plus they are usually plain as a mud fence. (Seems like Diana and the other manufacturers didn't feel it worthwhile to put a lot of artful design into them.) Bluing on the old guns doesn't seem to be that much better, but it could be due to age. Again, how well a gun blues depends upon the alloys used. I don't think the older guns used steels that really lent themselves to a high-gloss or deep blue, so the bluing processes employed were more or less utilitarian. And quite a few older guns WERE utilitarian. Sort of like a Savage or Marlin bolt action rimfire compared to a Winchester 52 or Anschutz sporter. In other words, not aimed at a high-end market.
While the newer guns have more stamped or CNC parts, they probably don't require as much hand fitting. Hand fitting is not always all about quality. In fact, lower tolerances can require more hand fitting to make a gun serviceable. And that takes a work force that is intimately familiar with a gun, which means employee longevity and a higher payroll.
Plastics or composites are light weight. As more and more air guns have been designed to meet the demand for higher speed, weights have gone up. Any areas where weight can be reduced are a plus. Triggers, safeties, endcaps and latches all add up. And plastics can be easily molded into shapes that would require costly machining to duplicate in metal.
