RedFeather (Login RedFeather) from IP address 173.73.150.91
During the post about the latest Chinese Diana 350 clone, I sent the following to Diana:
"I recently saw a comparison of the "ne\" Chinese BAM28 to your 350 model.
It appears to be nearly an exact copy. Does Diana receiver any royalty or
compensation from BAM for the use of your patents? As an owner of several
Diana airguns (from early models to the present), this level of copying
concerns me."
I recently got this reply:
"Dear Sir,
first of all sorry for the delayed answer.
Of course we didn't pass on any informations nor technical details for the
re-production of our air rifles.
We are not happy about such situations.
From our experience we can inform you that the products are similar on the
pictures, but in comparison you will discover big differences on the
precessing.
Further we are working on improvements to be different on such products."
Now, I wonder what the good folks at BAM would reply to the same question?
Pretty vague and lame response.They should have come right out and put the cards on the table! How about some pics? Aren't their guns copyrighted? SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!!!!!!
There's no such thing as an international copyright
January 21 2009, 7:55 AM
You have to file in each country, then litigate any infringements in that country's courts. Chine is supposed to give you about eighteen months to file, but sometimes it's less than twelve (per the US embassy's page). So, no, there is not real patent dispute over the BAM28.
As to spelling, hey, at least they did respond and it's intelligible. Unlike many, many instruction sheets from China.
I do my best not to buy items that have been copied. It is not always possible, buy I feel my responsibility as a consumer not to buy inferior items just due to cost.
I heard a rumor Xisisco actually makes some parts for RWS. The Bam 28 is an exact clone. It has the same internals and exact measurements same spring dimensions. I will have one to rip into this weekend. I also have fallowed the reviews and many have said its a Diamond in the rough. Yes its China made but what do you care if all your going to use is the chamber and the barrel. The piston and springs will be gutted with custom works . So far it has damn good numbers.
lots of old line companies are often production and engeneering
January 21 2009, 6:48 PM
oriented and not marketing oriented. because of past success they think that
continued success is assured and is an entitlement. the world does not work that
way.
Its a comparative thread. I own 2 Dianas. I love them. But Who wants to buy a $350+gun and gut it for experiments. If what I do works I will be buying a RWS 350 and implementing all mods into it. Consider it a Research Gun !
I think Larry just hit the nail on the head.Gamo is way ahead on the curve when it comes to marketing. Take their CFX it has turned out to be a nice rifle by all reviews and is somewhat compared to the TX200. While the gun is a good gun (CFX) it does not have the quality of the TX. Suppose gamo launced something like a "gold series". New trigger, etc. and made it their top of the line.Now they have a gun that can really complete with the TX. Many new to the sport will buy a starter gun then advance. Well they could advance to a great gamo as opposed to a RWS gun. Question, has the model 34. greatly improved or has it been downgraded? Is the bluing better or worse. Why hasn't RWS in all these years not corrected the droop problem associated with their guns? Why was the 350 put into production other than to satisfy the high velocity crowd yet not have a gun that would not eat scoopes like they were M&Ms? Why was the 460 designed with such a heavy spring and advertised as "RWS most powerful airgun"? Are they in a rush to try and complete with gamo on new products or should they focus on maintaining "great quality,Improved quality"? The Chinese are getting better and better at what they do.Why does every RWS owner buy a new Macarri Sring for their gun. Why couldn't RWS design a gun that did not require a new spring kit? If they are a niche market of quality guns, would you pay more for a gun that had a great reputation as well as a gun that had no need for a new tune kit? Just curious?
Why hasn't the 34 been improved? Well, I would hazard a guess that the 34 was an early entry into the market for increasingly powerful springers. It also signaled the decline of Diana's 27/35/45 series, which were much better made guns, quality-wise. Costs were also going up at time, as well, so the 34 incorporated some money-saving designs. Remember, the 34 is not designed to be a high-end gun, but more or less utilitarian. Hence, no buttplate, plain stocks, etc. It seems to fill a niche, both in terms of price and performance. So, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. And does the European market make the same demands as the American? It would be interesting to see if what's so important to gun buyers here carries the same weight there.
Why does Diana use a thin or run-of-the-mill spring? Why do many here feel they must gut their Diana and use after-market parts from JM, etc? Again, much of the Diana line is rather utilitarian, even the pricier models. Think Savage or Ruger rimfires VS Kimbers and Coopers. Cheaper and, therefore, less refined by comparison. Whereas the cheaper guns benefit greatly from aftermarket upgrades, Kimbers and Coopers are good to go right out of the box. I would say you are comparing Diana's to airguns like the TX series in this respect. To summarize, you ain't buying Mercedes here. More like VW's, folks.
The after-market airgun industry brings up another point. Quite a few gun owners have their rifles tuned. JM makes a decent living out of it. Diana could put an equivalent amount of improvements into their stock guns, but you would have to pay for it up front and you would not get to specify components, hard tune/soft tune, etc. In this respect, Diana models like the 34 are kissing cousins with the Ruger 10/22, essentially unchanged since 1964. Does Ruger sell many 10/22's? You betcha.
Diana is located in a country with a high cost of living. Their labor isn't cheap, so they must keep production costs down in order to remain a going concern. Remember, they are a PRIVATE COMPANY. No state support for them. The Chinese manufacturers currently have the luxury of cheap labor, materials and practically free production facilities that were once small arms factories. They can copy existing designs, eliminating 95% of the design costs and still make a healthy profit underselling the originals. Yes, their quality control is rapidly improving but let's not grant them laurels just yet. With labor so cheap, the Chinese can afford to pay a little more attention to details without hurting their bottom line. Thing is, if they do it too well, private companies like Diana will be forced to scale way back on production or fold. Then you will be faced with one of two outcomes. Either the Chinese step in and begin to produce new and better guns or they will simply continue to churn out the latest models with no incentive for improvements. I would put my money on the latter of the two.
on the radio this morning it was said that the chinese
January 22 2009, 10:56 AM
government is poised to provide a huge stimulous package with billions of dollars of subsidies going to exporters. this is designed to jump start their
flagging economy. it will also have the effect of creating an additional
advantage to their products unless the U.S. steps in with import duties. thats a sticky wicket.
Red, I agree with you all everything thing you said, except I believe the Chinese are actually improving each year. In fact it has been well noted. I believe they will eventually catch up on the triggers, etc. of the guns they copy. I not, the materials can't be that expensive and they sure do have plenty of cheap labor. I remember reading that one clone was so close that even the original had a very hard time finding the differences.Give them time, as they seem bent on making an exact copy. just mo
WHO? helped with the Disco in the experimental stages, Answer; Tom Gaylord and some parts are made in China
WHO? helped with the QB78 for the Chinese, Answer Tim from Mac1 (by the way they promised him some $$ and then cut him out, completely)
WHO? will help Xisico to compete with the Disco from Croosman and the QB78 from Bam with a PCP?? another full blooded american from the Chinese forum (he is going to China to help them develop a PCP for Xisico)
traitors or USA innovators?
warren
PS: you just cannot beat the B28 (RWS 350) for the price and the quality of the B28 is being raised exponentionally by the month
and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"
Demming was when he gave the Japanese his quality control methods. now they are challenging us in so many ways. china is behind in the QC area but they won't be for long. at some point as standards of living rise in china the products will be less competative from a price point than they are now but the quality will rival the best from germany. its an evolutionary process that
industrialized nations go through.
the Japanese were great copiers at one time. now they don't need to. the same thing will happen in china. the only way to hold them back would be to impose
protecionist import duties to make them less competative. trade wars are never good long term.
everyone has a right to vote with their dollars for the goods they want to buy.
they copy because they have inside information and ADVISORS for their lack of QC, our's and others' from different countries and all because of CHEAP labor
when the USA outsouces jobs' outside they also send their equipment
do you THINK the Chinese can produce these products to the highest specifications with their Russian mills' and lathes', absolutely NOT
we are giving them the advice, blueprints and the equipment, everything but the people and the building gets sent to China for a contract to make XX amounts of goods to sell in the USA and then they perfect their products with a very good copy and a cheap price the goods we buy in the USA
now: do we get the equipment back after they make a run of their production and their company folds? NOT, don't think so
look at BAM, they copy the R9, RWS350, TX200, RWS34 only the best of the best for peanuts insted of real $$ we pay for the real things
warren
PS: enough of my rant, just buy the real thing
and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"
I never said the Chinese quality wasn't improving. It is as witnessed by their BAM28. What I said was that, absent a new gun to copy, my bet is they will not take the next step and design something original. Even the gas guns mentioned were copies of Crosman designs or ideas/blueprints supplied elsewhere.
Put another way, you can make an exact copy of a Rolex and sell it cheaper but it will not be any better than the original Rolex.
Red Not to continue this either as I am a Diana fan also but I just did a real power tune on a 28 and its hitting hard. Its well made and has NO droop. I have a few areas Ill be correcting on the stock that are inherent in both the 350 and the 28. Ill post chroney results ASAP
