my springers have taken a back seat to the PCP Disco's I started shooting.Even as powerful and accurate as my .22 Diana 48 is it can not hold a candle to the Disco.
No recoil,more powerful when turned up and one ragged hole accuracy from both the .177 and .22 I now am proud to own.One other thing that kinda makes me feel good is its made in good Old USA,with times the way they are I know I am helping an American worker keep his job.
To me that is #1 right now in our country.Even though a couple of air guns probably won't help that much I know I have at least tried to help keep a American family stay in work with a pay check and meals on there table.
Proud to be an American
And Remember to buy American (at least for awhile)
Sincerely
BBGun Bob
My new .177 Benjamin Discovery Custom
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My 9 month old .22 cal Disco Custom
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Air Guns Create Questions????
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Bob, I think you have crossed over. It won't belong before you are buying a Talon or Condor. By the way, congrats on such great shooting with that Diana pistol! Bravo! I have a Baikal 46m and really love that gun. Give me about a year more of practice and we can go mano a mano! (If I don't show up, just start without me)
You have inspired me, especially with the cry for BB gun tales. So, when I went into a local gun shop to look at a rimfire, I walked out instead with a Daisy 880, total purchase w/tax $21.00. Must be an old one because it is all metal (except for the XXX plastic wood stock), painted some kind of Air Force Blue. Couple drops of oil where directed and it will shoot tight groups at 20 feet with Gamo match wadcutters. (If anyone thinks these are difficult to load in their guns, try one of these. Pellets began to disappear, then hit me in the feet when pumping the next round. Took me a bit but I figured it out. The bolt probe retracts too far and they fall inside the receiver.)
What's really a hoot is it came with an cheapo Tasco 20mm which I soon ditched. Used the open sights and it lookd promising. Then remembered a universal rimfire target sight Ive had laying around for ten years which fits absolutely nothing - except this Daisy 880. Needs a wee bit wider rear disk but I had two almost touching with the sight just temporarily slipped on.
Still won't sell my 54, though. Geez, the stuff that follows me home. I'm like an airgun shelter!
One of these days I'll get down your way whether we shoot or not a nice chat will be in order,maybe a couple of brewski's to keep away the cotton mouth LOL
A Bud In Mich.
BBGun Bob
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I have a Talon SS .22 set up with a 24" barrel and CO2 (with HPA it shoots 40+ fpe and tears up my targets/backstops too much - I know why the FT hosts limit to 20 fpe!). It shoots 17fpe for 600+ shots on a 12 oz tank. Extremely accurate and consistent. I call it my hero gun. I hold shooting events with the family and give it to the girls when the guys are feeling macho. I call it my Hero gun - anybody can shoot good with it!
My other Talon SS has an 18" barrel and shoots 28fpe. Pretty much just as accurate, but not as consistent over as many shots. I pull these out when I definitely want to hit stuff!
I guess you gotta ask yourself what you like and you are going to do with it.
Marauder has the 10 shots, a more traditional construction, shrouded barrel and 2000 psi fill. If I were getting this one, I would wait for a while to here how others like it and what issues they are having after a few thousand pellets.
Condor has Super Power and lots of flexibility to easily mod (Change barrel lengths, calibers, HPA tanks - high flow, regular, and low flow and CO2 - or regulated HPA using the Co2 adapter, as well as an unlimited amount of custom items from aftermarket suppliers). My personal choice in the AirForce line is the Talon SS. The 18" barrel gives equivalent power to the Marauder at about 2 pounds less. A Frame Extender silences the gun down and only adds about 3 inches. I can get about 50 full power shots out of it. It is a pretty good do-all compromise gun. Hunt, target shoot, plink, etc. I have a Leapers 3-12x44 mini swat on mine to keep with its compact nature. If I had it to do all over again, I would probably just buy the TSS with an 18" barrel already in it from somebody like Mac 1. Of course, if you really want to reach out and touch something, 100 yard shots are the norm with the 60 ft lb Condor. Shrouds are available for it, but they start looking like witches brooms....
I have a Disco also,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,If,,,,,,,, however,,,, I had to grab only one gun & a tin of pellets,,,, would be my Diana 22 cal 34 & a tin of RWS Domes!!!!!! WORD!! HONEST ENGINE!! But What do I know??,,,,,, "Old Tim".
The Marauder is destined to become ANOTHER ground breaking airgun from Crossman indeed. MARK MY WORDS,,,,,(Again) (Dont Kill the messanger) My Disco is "Stupid Accurate" & powerfull. Funny how I LOVE my Diana 22 cal 34 better??????? Hmmmmmmm?????? Keep an OPEN MIND Folks!!,,,,,, "Old Tim".
Not to long ago I went over to my friend's house, Marcelo (MZ) Zapatero's house. Lo and behold,sitting on his work bench was a new Talon. Now, if there was ever a true springer man in this Universe, it is MZ. Sometimes I think he was placed on this earth to "tune spring air guns. He was in the process of carving a new wooden stock for the talon. I was shocked! Yea, he said to me, can you believe it. It wasn't long after that he called me, and wanted to know if I wanted to go to the airgun show with him. I declined because of work. When He returned from the show, he was sporting a new toy, a HWS with a Tyrolean stock. He had traded his TALON for it. When I asked him why he traded, his reply was, "Well,It just wasn't the same. It was like driving a high performance race car with a Automatic Transmission". I knew all along that the talon would not last.
I was thinking of ordering one when I saw your Pic, but the wife reminded me that the speed limit was only 55 to 65 tops down here in Tidewater Virginia. Looks like it is pretty fast for a diesel! What kink of fuel mileage can you get with that baby? I bet it is a really fun ride. I could take it to the beach this summer. Does it have enough trunk room for my lawn chair and beer?
I think I like Springers just a notch more.
I get more satisfaction when I hit the bullseye or a critter with a Springer, than I do with the PCP's. It seems too easy with the PCP's and it kind of makes me feel guilty sometimes.. like I 'm not working hard at it. I feel like I have accomplished more with the Springer even if the groups are little bigger.
I have to admit though that a powerful .25cal tuned Condor (85+fpe) does have more noticeable recoil (than a standard 60fpe Condor) and it begins to resemble a Springer, but it's still not the same thing. I don't know why, but I like a little "kick" when shooting an airgun. I guess I 'm a Springer guy at heart but will always remain open-minded and probably always own both if I can.
Oh and Bob, AF guns are also made in the good 'ol USA! Your Disco .22 looks awesome! The new Marauder looks pretty good.. That maybe my next purchase. I always wanted a decent multi-shot air rifle and the AA 410 is not made here
New RWS Diana 350 .22 (compliments of Tim & friends!) on its way..
RWS Diana 36 .177 CDT tuned
RWS Hammerli 850 .22
Lemak custom AF Condor .25
Talon Tunes AF Condor .25
Airhog tuned AF Condor .22
Crosman custom 2300XT .22
Various other Crosman Pump & CO2 .177
Variety is the spice of life, and as much as precision is holy, it is even holier if you do it with a springer.
Most springer shooters are good shooters, why? because it is more demanding. And when a spring guy goes over to PCP's he's shooting the cat's a$$. Why? because he learned and polished his skills with springers.
Sure there is room for everything in life, but you do have to admit that the simplicity of shooting a spring gun is hard to beat.
For one thing, I find them aesthetically unattractive. Kind of like plumbing gone wild. Even the high dollar guns. For another, the CO2 guns I have owned and shot were kind of boring. Oh, they worked well and all, but there is something about providing the energy, yourself, in one clean stroke that I find appealing. I do have pneumatic pumpers. Those are still one shot affairs, so, in that respect, they are much like a springer.
Who knows? Maybe one day I will be forced to wheel around an oxygen tank to get from here to there. Just can't see doing it in the field. Besides, when I was in the navy I worked with one of the world's largest PCP's - Polaris A3 missile launch system. Come to think of it, those were one shot, too.
Question - Why do these PCP's look like they came from the same design house as the Oscar Myer Wiener-Mobile? Can't they make a trim PCP along the lines of a classic style ala Diana 350?
Red, my Dad taught me a few things. He always said the following:
1)Never eat at a place called Mom's
2)Never play cards with a guy named Doc
3)Never date a women that has more problems than you do!
4)Never say never!
And there are designs and patterns that could achieve the simple, classic lines of what you're looking for. Problem is to get the companies to make'em! LOL!
the cavalry is comming to help you but will it be General Custer at Little big Horn or General Patton at the Battle of the Bulge
SPRINGERS for ever and PCP for today, granted that PCP's are making their entry and they have their attraction and followers
but we all started with springers and went to the POWER of the PCP's, they are powerfull but BORING in my opinion, no challenge compared to the spring air guns
maybe you and I Red are old school but shoot a HW or RWS compared to a PCP and may I say, why? are the PCP's not in the Olimpic's??? at 10 meters
warren
PS: LOL
and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"
how people who have never shot PCP's or used the simplicity of a Scuba tank to fill one, say I 'll never go PCP. Using a Scuba takes on avg. 30-45secs to fill you tank, and you do it with a single click of the Foster Quick-connect fitting onto your fill adapter. If you don't have the $, don't do it.. but I 'm not a one-track mind kind of guy. I like experimenting and using different things. I am open-minded and may even buy a Chinese gun this year.. You look at the most reknown airgun people out there and they use both Springers, PCP's, CO2's, everything. You can't call yourslef a hard-core airgunner if you don't own all types of airguns.
PCP's can be very challenging when you are shooting something 50, 60, 70 or 100yds away. There is nothing easy about getting placing the pellet in the center hole at those ranges. 30yds? sure those shots are "easy" and a little boring hitting the bullseye almost every time but it sure puts a smile on your face when you see your 1-hole groups. Then you look at your Springer groups that are "all over the place", 0.5" at best, and lose that smile fast. I for one, need a gun that will shoot a 12lb groundhog 0.25-0.5" behind the eye at 50+yds or a squirrel in the head. If not, I risk injuring that animal and losing it. Can't rely on a Springer to do that consistently. Had I been restricted to 40yd shooting or less, I probably would have stuck with Springers only, but my quarry and distances dictate what the right guns are for me to use, to do the job right - when .22LR rimfire use is unlawful.
Can a Springer do this head shot at 45+yds (this is much smaller than crow)? 1 out 10 shots maybe?
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Diana 350 .22 aka "Old Tim" (J.W. tuned)
Diana 36 .177 CDT tuned
Lemak custom AF Condor .25
Talon Tunes AF Condor .25
Airhog tuned AF Condor .22
RWS Hammerli 850 .22
Crosman 2300XT Custom .22
Other Crosman Pump & CO2 .177
Exactly my point,and anyone who says they can do this with a springer is only fooling there self.
I also own them all,,,, Spingers.CO2,PCP and even a old freon powered
LARC M19A BB machine gun now converted to compressed air.
Like I said in the beginning of this post my springers have taken a back seat to my PCP/HEPA Disco's.
I think I'm in for the new Crosman Marauder when it hits the market.
I'm hoping Pymramyd air has them at the Things that Shoot show next month in Ohio! Thats where I bought my Disco when no one could get one.
I already got the money ($500) put away for this new 10 shot model with adjustable trigger.
My Disco's with better than 35 power shots on a fill will do any hunting that may be in store for me especially when it only takes one shot for a accurate kill,No twang,cock twang damn I missed for me.LOL
OK maybe after a tune a thud,cock thud miss because of recoil.And lets not forget the broken scope,stripped threads and parts falling off at the wrong time(in the middle of a woods never to be found again).
Don't get me wrong my springers are great!! They have a place in my life,but I won't go there.
In the mean time I'll throw my little Disco tank in my truck with 3000psi in it,grab my rifle and take off for a day of shooting.If I think I might expire the tank I can always break out the pump.
BBgun Bob
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Air Guns Create Questions????
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If dead-center accuracy was the only criteria for shooting guns, then I guess we would see piles and piles of muzzle loaders and Winchester 94's, et al, down at the scrap yard. I will be coming around with an eighteen wheeler to collect all your obsolete guns, BTW. Please have them double-boxed.
No offense, Harry, but I CAN afford a PCP. (By my latest tally, I have about as much moolah "invested" in air guns as I do in fire sticks.) Moreover, just because I don't lean that way, doesn't mean I can't be a "hard core air gunner" or whatever you elect to dub yourself. There are all kinds of shooters out there. Some like only target guns and don't hunt. Does that make them any less shooters? It's not an elite club. BTW, I sold my CO2 guns because, while certainly as easy to drop in another cartridge and bang away as filling from an air tank, I found it, personally, a bit on the dull side. Kind of like Pyrodex pellets in a muzzle loader, if you will.
"To each his own!" said the Old Maid as she kissed the cow.
I would never part with Springers, nor would I even go as far as saying, they have taken a back seat. I shoot them probably just as much and enjoy them immensely. All my guns have a special place and specific tasks or when I use them and how, for what purpose, etc.
Basically I see a critter 20-40yds.. out comes a Springer (except at night, I only have lights on the PCP's) usually. 40yds or more I reach for a PCP. I see a bird inside 35yds, out comes my 850 CO2 rifle, etc. That's just the way I do it. Everyone is different.
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Diana 350 .22 aka "Old Tim" (J.W. tuned)
Diana 36 .177 CDT tuned
Lemak custom AF Condor .25
Talon Tunes AF Condor .25
Airhog tuned AF Condor .22
RWS Hammerli 850 .22
Crosman 2300XT Custom .22
Other Crosman Pump & CO2 .177
A D-54 in .22" will do it all day long, if the shooter does its part.
And not only at 45, but at 65 and 85 yards.
I feel we need to be inclusive and not exclusive. If someone likes hunting with springers, then so be it. If someone likes PCP's that is good also. Each has to have a good idea of his limits, and the self-control, to limit the shots to where they can cleanly take game. It really does not matter if you have springer or a PCP if you´re a good enough HUNTER to get to where you KNOW you can make the shot.
Both styles of guns have their place and they are not exclusive.
I, for one, am quite happy that my first 'real' air rifle is an RWS 52. If you can learn to shoot a magnum spring, you can shoot anything. I've recently purchased an RWS/Hammerli 850, and have been having a wonderful time with it. I'm currently using the 'standard' AS CO2 tank, but have the adapter to go 9 oz PB. This thing is a great shooter and was a real 'deal' ($158 refurb from Umarex with 6x Walther scope mounted). Things I really love about this gun include - it's accuracy, the number of mods that are floating around, and the ability to convert to PCP at some future date if I decide to. It will probably be at least a year away, however, because I still don't feel I've mastered the 52. I'm using it for FT and it took me about four months to figure out how to shoot it. Then winter set in, some scope issues, etc. I feel I'll be a better shooter for working this out first.
It's an amazingly accurate gun for the price! It's hard to miss with this gun, except when you start stretching its legs past 30yds but I 've made some 35+ head shots on Starlings by compensating just a little.. In stock form (power) the pellets begin dropping quickly down range. I get same hole shots and groups over and over at 25yds with my 850 .22. It likes Superdomes best, and CPHP's are a close 2nd. CP's are pretty good too but I get too many dang fliers with them. I thought it was my Springers at first, but after shooting the recoiless 850 which is extremeley accurate with almost every medium-weight pellet I fed it, I knew it was the CP's. I came to the conclusion that I 'm not buying the expensive CP's anymore. I 'm just trying to finish the 2 boxes I have left and that will be it. None of my guns shoot CP's consistently any more, not even my PCP's on low power. I probably got a bad batch from a crappy Die.
Anyway I have the upgraded hammer spring and weight here.. just have to make some time to install it to get another 50-60fps out of it. I need it here.. it's too dang cold for CO2! BTW, I took 20+ Starlings with the 850 in Jan & Feb. shooting from indoors, to keep the gun warm. It has taken its share of squirrels too. I can't say enough good things about it and the blueing is nice and dark, better than my Dianas and other more expensive guns! It's a very well made gun with match grade-like quality barrel. BTW, I paid $185 for mine 15mos ago before the prices went up, so that wasn't bad. Even at today's price $215-220, it's well worth it especially when you can get 2 more FPE right away with a $5 spring mod! A 14fpe tack driver CO2 is awesome in my book. I may even try to take a Groundhog with it this summer after the hammer spring mod. We 'll see if there are any left in the neighborhood.. I think I got a little carried away last summer
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Diana 350 .22 aka "Old Tim" (J.W. tuned)
Diana 36 .177 CDT tuned
Lemak custom AF Condor .25
Talon Tunes AF Condor .25
Airhog tuned AF Condor .22
RWS Hammerli 850 .22
Crosman 2300XT Custom .22
Other Crosman Pump & CO2 .177
You can shoot a medium-size bird like a Grackle or Starling in the head all day long between 65 and 85yds with a Springer? That's amazing! You must be one of a kind marksman! What exactly does "all day long" mean? Does that mean with every shot, every other shot? 2 out of 5?
You live in White Plains right? You don't mind driving 50min. to my house one day to shoot some bottle caps or targets at 65yds, do you? A bottle cap is about the size of a birds head or we print out some 1" targets. I 'll pay for your gas, provide the pellets, and my Caldwell sand bag, or build a rest to suit your needs, and I 'll buy lunch. You can shoot my guns too.
I would really like to see this 54 .22 and how it performs in the right hands, and maybe take a few shots with it. If you want to do 85yd shooting we 'll go to my brother-in-laws 5min. away. He has 3 acres with plenty of space and some nice classic cars we can drewl over
What kind of scope do you use for that kind of long-range shooting?
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Diana 350 .22 aka "Old Tim" (J.W. tuned)
Diana 36 .177 CDT tuned
Lemak custom AF Condor .25
Talon Tunes AF Condor .25
Airhog tuned AF Condor .22
RWS Hammerli 850 .22
Crosman 2300XT Custom .22
Other Crosman Pump & CO2 .177
I enjoyed the comment that PCP's are boring.What kind of person would train the way an Olympian does on something that was BORING? Please give me a break. Just because someone does not agree with you, does not make his sport Boring! I love my springers and can't wait to get a nice Talon SS combo when money allows. It seems some folks just can't think out of the box. Harry, is a perfect example. He loves his springer, but loves the challenge of shooting a precise instrument like the PCP. The idea of shooting so precise at a long distance is NOT BORING to many folks. Springers and PCP's (C02 etc) are different platforms. Harry, I agree with you, I love my 850. Boy what a smooth and accurate gun. The whole idea of setting up a position with a high powered PCP and shooting at a great distance is very exciting to me. If you love springers than fine, I appreciate your cup of tea. But please don't knock another man's love of his sport. Especially if you haven't even tried it. By the way, many PCP guys started with Springers, and will never go back. I guess that say's something for PCP's!!
I would love to take someone up on an offer to shoot my 54 with them. If someone hasn't seen what this rifle is capable of when it's dialed in correctly, they would be amazed. I regularly (as in a couple per week) take starlings out with my 54 past 90 yrds. I've taken some up to 100 yrds with it now. I set up small vitamin bottles(about the size of small aspirin bottles) at 100 yrds for target practice and blast them.
I use a 50 yrd sight in and typically produce 1/2" groups at that distance, then they open up to 1"-2" at 100 yrds, so I can attest to the fact that Hector is more than likely producing great shots with his 54.
For some reason, these rifles get bashed, but I've laid the challenge on the table many times before:
Find me a non-pcp that shoots with a better combination of accuracy, power(mine's producing 24 fpe) and smoothness of shot cycle(hell, just find me one that shoots with the combination of power and accuracy to this gun, forget how rough the shot cycle is) and I will be the first in line to purchase it.
I constantly see people post pics of their pcp accuracy and I always seem to be able to match those groups with my 54. It really is a work of art that gets bashed unfairly for some reason.
First off, I'm sitting here with a bunch of fresh stitches in my shoulder, so typing isn't exactly a piece of cake, but I'll proceed.
Harry - I don't know Hector, personally, but I wouldn't want to put money on you against his 54. I get the feeling that Hector has been shooting since, well, Hector of Troy. As in, perhaps, a long, professional role. Challenging people, insinuating they can't afford something you own, etc, is bordering on ..... well, figure it out.
Dave - I don't care if you agree with my perception of something being boring or not. That's a subjective term, in any event. Whatever floats your boat. Just don't ask me to man one of your oars.
Come on Red, that comment about Harry was really below the belt. You know what he was trying to say. I respect your opinion that you are bored by PCP's. But some folks find it very exciting. I am sure Hector is a fine shot, but so his Harry. I will take your bet, just let me know how much. Secondly, I would not ask you to take a oar in my boat, I can oar just fine thank you. Joking I am not.
At first glance, it seemed a bit condescending or sarcastic. Maybe it was genuine. As an old law professor I had once said, words can mean different things to different people.
Still find PCP's boring, though. (I think that gets to you guys, doesn't it?) Although the ones on the sub were interesting, in a Dr. Strangelove sort of way.
I have two. Diana 54 and FX Cyclone. I love them both equally, however there is no comparison in accuracy. I have shot these guns side by side every single day from 10-100 yards. Not to say that my 54 isn't accurate, it is, but not in the same class as my Cyclone. Springers in any form can not keep pace with a world class PCP. P
Well if this 54 is giving me 1"-2" groups at 100 yrds, I guess i'll get to look forward to 1/2"-3/4" groups at 100 yrds when I get a pcp. That will be terrific!
Boring could be nice as in Red Feathers shoulder.
Maybe Red Feather ought to put a springer up against that shoulder and fire it a few times.OUCH!!! But a boring ole PCP might not bother it at all! LOL
Shoot on Guy's,I really like all my air guns,in fact I just built a cheapo rack to get them off the floor.
Red what happened to your shoulder?? Rotator Cuff gone bad??
I wish you well my friend,my buddy just had his done!! Pain YES,time to heal 5 weeks.
And no you can't come over with a Semi truck LOL
BBGun Bob
$10 dollar gun rack two 1x2 firring strips 2 1/2 " dowel rods.
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Air Guns Create Questions????
Together we can write the answers!!
I think I may turn to the darkside as well, I am waiting on the new Marauder tweeked by Tim @ Mac1. I also have an RWS850Mag .22 tweeked up with the help of Roald, consisting of porting, 9oz bulk and spring & spacer that in the warmth of summer pushes CPs @710+fps. Thinking about buying the bottle and reg and turning it into a HPA and getting 910fps.
Please explain something to me. What springer is it that recoils so hard it rocks your shoulder? I've shot big original Remington rolling blocks and .58 muskets with full service loads and those have actually bruised a bit, but I've never shot a springer that was anything near that level of recoil. I see this stated a lot. Just one of those who figure the recoil pads on air guns are to keep them from slipping or, in the case of ventilated models, mostly for looks.
For what it's worth (darn little in today's market), I'm not that kind of recoil sensitive. My one shoulder has bursitis but it's the off one, so doesn't affect shooting. My eyes, on the other hand, I have to be careful of due to several retinal surgeries. What springers I have are recoil-free or very far down the scale.
Why does it bother people if someone posts they don't care for a certain style of gun? Some folks adore scotch. To me, that's like drinking through a cigarette butt. I don't rag them about their tastes in liquor nor try to convert them to Jack Daniels. It's all a matter of personal taste.
Red, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. With all due respect Red, I think most of us all along have been trying to say, "each to his own." You seem very adament that you will "Never" go pcp. That's fine.If you reread the previous post you will see that many guys own both.I personally was trying to state the very fact to be tolerant to others. Enjoy your springer's Red. I will enjoy mine, and I also hope to buy a Talon SS some day. If that is alright with you. And even if it isn't alright with you. (No disrespect intended).
I, Bob and others are just glad to have the best of both worlds.
I 've been thinking about a Talon too lately but with a regulated 1,800 or 2,000psi tank from JDSairman (.com) after I sell one of my .25 Condors. I really don't need 2 of them. You can get 80 shots that are extremely consistent (like 1fps avg. variation!) with almost the same velocity. The shot strings I saw were unbelievable. No more dropping 100fps after 30 shots. You don't get maximum power but it's still plenty for hunting. My .22 Condor still shoots >40fpe @ 2K psi, so a Talon with 18" barrel should be around low 20's regulated 1,800-2K psi. Too many possibilities and mods with these PCP's.. I can then have a PCP with better consistency than a Springer! hehe
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Diana 350 .22 aka "Old Tim" (J.W. tuned)
Diana 36 .177 CDT tuned
Lemak custom AF Condor .25
Talon Tunes AF Condor .25
Airhog tuned AF Condor .22
RWS Hammerli 850 .22
Crosman 2300XT Custom .22
Other Crosman Pump & CO2 .177
Bob, the stitches are from something I had taken off by the dermatologist. Nice of you to recommend a recoilless gun, though.
I guess I should not have stuck my big old nose into a PCP thread, especially not ever having had one. Still not enamoured of them and if you guys are that's fine with me. I just like to have some kind of mechanical feedback from an airgun and I don't really get that, even with my Blue Streaks. Tried CO2's, didn't care for them and figure PCP's will be about the same, satisfaction-wise, and a lot more expensive so let's not and say I did.
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