(Login HectorMedina) from IP address 69.126.238.114
I am just unpacked from Europe. I went to the IWA show (Internationalle Waffen Ausstellung) and to meet the people behind the Diana rifles. I also went to JSB, and to Steyr, but that is something that may be of interest in another forum.
So, let's talk about what is the current situation and what we can expect from Diana / Mayer & Grammelspacher:
First let us emphasize that M&G have been making Diana airguns for the last 119 years. Yes, more than a century. So, yes, they know something about it. There is a reason for the way they do things.
Second let us say, in no uncertain terms, that the US market and the FT market is not their top priority. Of the 80,000 guns or so (my estimates based on their capabilities, not official numbers) they make every year, only a VERY SMALL fraction end up in the hands of "dyed in the wool" enthusiasts like us. Their main market is still Germany and a large fraction of all their guns, go out the doors at UNDER 6 ft-lbs. of energy output (Pentagon F class).
Having said that, we also must say that from a high point of having 400 employees and producing more than half a million guns per year, they are now down to 80 employees. The markets have changed.
It also helped very little that when the US "adult airgun" market was starting, some personal and business disagreement with the then trend-setter, got Diana a mixed reputation. It has also helped little that RWS is now part of UMAREX, and UMAREX has bigger markets to cater to than the extremely specialized American high power spring gun market. Just to give you an idea: UMAREX now owns Walther and Hämmerli, and the money comes from selling replicas. Is it now clear?
The board at Diana made reasonably recent changes: the current head is Herr Martin Zedler and the current head of engineering is Herr Pero Weisel.
Herr Zedler and Herr Weisel are both committed to keeping Diana in the top-notch class and they are working hard towards that goal. The FIRST examples are the two TH rifles in the roster. Just the start of a new "family". The 56 is based on the 54 and the 470 on the 460, that is clear. What is not clear is that the next generation trigger (T-06) is a much better product and a much nicer trigger. It also will become clear, as time goes by, that some shooters simply cannot put their hands to fine adjustments like the ones required and therefore a lot of questions will start coming from that end.
M&G now makes EVERY metal part in house. Yes they experimented with some outsourcing, but the quality control was terrible and that has gone out the window. Stocks are made in Italy of renewable wood/forests, so, while it will become more expensive, there should be no shortage of wood in the near future. To my knowledge, Diana is the ONLY brand that takes this stuff into account.
Barrels are made in house, but we are looking at the possibility of supplying some specialty barrels to them in accordance with their requirements and have them build complete guns. The idea is to be able to have a .20" cal. 54 or 470, perhaps a .25" cal. one. Yes, that has been made before, but the current setup only allows for 0.177" and .22" cal. for drilling and rifleing. So that may be something we see in the future: Special editions of selected barrel calibers and lengths. The issue of the sound moderation is now being discussed and I have written to Lothar Walther to see if they want to cooperate on the effort. Problem seems to be that under most countries' laws, we would have to use some sophisticated technology without baffles and then weld the shroud to the barrel. Doable, yes, but at what cost? We will know in a few weeks. The good faith and the good intentions are there.
Just to dispel what has been said here, Diana is not looking to compete with GAMO, or Hatsan or the Chinese. Diana is looking to keep in the forefront of the market by giving their guns some "eye appeal" and that is where the new TH stocks come in. Also the new T-06 trigger.
One of the aspects that has cleared the way for better FT guns is the fact that now, with the exception of the US, all the rest of the world will be playing the game at 12 ft-lbs. This makes for a larger market, as all the local/different/peculiar regulations are now the same. We talked about a short stroked 54 for FT and the jury is still out about whether they want to make it or I am at liberty to make them. However, if the tests results and the opinions of both the technicians involved are for it, Diana has agreed to look into a shorter ACTION, to lighten the whole gun. Again, be careful for what you wish, as the American market is small and if the 12 ft-lbs 54 goes forward one way or another, it will almost certainly mark the demise of the 23 ft-lbs 54.
We also discussed an Alu-Schaft that would hold the action AND the scope, so that the scope would not recoil. Tests have proven to be as accurate as conventional methods and this would allow us to use ANY scope, not only airgun rated scopes.
We also discussed the plans for a new PCP.
Yes, they are seriously thinking about it.
Diana made some years ago, the Diana 100. It was a single stroke pneumatic that even got as far as having an electronic firing solenoid. Yes, YEARS before the British were even thinking about it. So the knowledge of holding air in a tank, and releasing it is well know within Diana. We looked at the magazines available in the market and came to the conclusion that, really, there are very few worthwhile magazines.
Conversations are ongoing on this end, but do not despair, there is a Diana PCP in the future. It just looks a little bit fuzzy at the present.
Diana faces great challenges.
First is their local regulations: you can only shoot higher than 6 ft-lbs. guns in approved shooting ranges. Therefore an FT club needs to find a firearms club to host its shoots.
They do have a "Pentagon F" FT, but they are alone in the world in that. Again, this means a smaller market.
There are talks about how we can motivate German shooters to take up again airgun shooting. Price of shooting is proving a good incentive, but the fact that hunting is so well regulated and hunting licenses imply so much effort and expense, might also prove to be a boon.
Last, but definitely not least, comes the non-lead trend. In the EEC, NO lead will be allowed in 3 more years. Indoor shooters, like Match shooters have little to worry about, but the rest of us will have a heck of a problem getting to comply with that. Luckily they are aware and there are other good companies willing to tackle the problem with enough anticipation as to make it a problem and not a crisis. The timetable for the US is not far behind.
Herr Weisel comes from the Auto industry, so his eye goes to simplify production methods while keeping the quality, he has an open mind and I think we can expect good, professional cooperation with them in the near future.
On the commercial side, I do have to admire their steadfastness. UMAREX will continue to be their commercialization channel. They have a contract and they are going to honour that contract. Wish more persons and companies, were that steadfast in their business relations!
So, I am hopeful of the future, with these two extremely qualified individuals (Herr Zedler comes from more than 20 years at Waffen Frankonia) I think that Diana has a good future.
Like they say, its always best to get your information from the horse's mouth. You should have asked them about barrel droop as that seems to be a pretty contentious issue around here....
Please read where he said that the US market is not der tail mit wags der hund. Be thankful that Diana is still in the R&D business. Glad to hear they are working through the economic/legalistic obstacles without sacrificing the mark.
So, is there a future for 12fp FT here in the States? Hmmmmm a 12fp 54...... sounds like a good compromise for the urban shooter.
Thanks for such a concise, well-thought-out synopsis of your visit. And do post about JSB. We won't tell.
thanks for the info.
Good to see that they have taken a shine to an alternative method of mounting a scope on the 54 type.I know it works and how!!
Not at all sure about lead replacement pellets though... unfortunately nothing I know of seems to come close to lead for accuracy and affordability.
All the best,
D
Hector, thanks for some very great info! One of the best post on this forum. So interesting to hear how the Germans at Diana are marketing their guns. So Germany is their main market? Wow! So much info in just one post, I don't know where to begin. How about the stuff with the 20.cal? Why? That pellet is near non existence in the US?(or shall we say, not that popular). Must be popular in Europe. Interesting to hear about the Non lead pellets that I am sure will be coming our way in Legislation. I especially paid attention to the fact that gun will be reduced in Poundage! TIME FOR THE US TO START PROMOTING AIR GUNS, AND CLUBS!! Your post sure dispelled the nonsense that the "ENGINEERS AT DIANA ARE ASLEEP"! Seems like these guys are on top of their game! Bravo for a great report and thanks! (more to follow, Am sure)!
Particuarly interested in the pcp also the 12ftlb standardisation. Whilst making a 12 ftlb 54 may mark the demise of a 23ftlb 54 surely it would not mark the end of say a 17ftlb 54? Is there a specific requirement for a 23ftlb 54?
I must admit to thinking Diana ought to consider altering the marketing strategy and moving away from the power side of things as in more and more markets having an airgun capable of > 12ftlbs creates problems/issues (look at the efforts uk manufacturers are going to with the anti tamper).
1. "the US market and the FT market is not their top priority."
2. "Having said that, we also must say that from a high point of having 400 employees and producing more than half a million guns per year, they are now down to 80 employees. The markets have changed."
3. "M&G now makes EVERY metal part in house. Yes they experimented with some outsourcing, but the quality control was terrible and that has gone out the window."
4. "One of the aspects that has cleared the way for better FT guns is the fact that now, with the exception of the US, all the rest of the world will be playing the game at 12 ft-lbs."
Hector; the above 4 statements reflect the pains of what M&G is doing to try to survive in these poor global markets, M&G is not inmune to this toxic economy that has spread all over the world,
Webley and Scott had more than 200 years in the UK and they exist no more, they are HATSAN now
just look at the US auto industry, Chrysler is at the brink of ceasing to exist unless some foreign auto company bails them out, Fiat maybe?? GM is cutting out the Hummer and Saturn models
M&G has never depended on the US market be it in the past, present ot future to create enough profits for the US to be in their marketing equation and UMAREX does not help them at ALL
I can see the writing in the wall, as you say "it will almost certainly mark the demise of the 23 ft-lbs 54." and may I add other Model air guns from Diana, thank you for the HEADS" UP on this issue
warren
PS: buy as many old Dianas as you can, they will not last forever
and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"
I have to agree with Warren on this issue. Maybe UMAREX acts just as a distributor and not as a true marketing tool. However it is a shame that nothing is done to promote the Diana line and airgun shooting as a sport as well.
Your post "Price of shooting is proving a good incentive, but the fact that hunting is so well regulated and hunting licenses imply so much effort and expense, might also prove to be a boon"
is one of the most important issues for this sport! This statement alone, should open up the eyes to all air gun Manufacturers. This was the very reason I became interested in the air gun hobby in the fist place. Take where I live. In the state of Virginia, hunting license permits are decreasing each and every year. It is getting harder and harder to hunt or even shoot again, as land is becoming scarce and so much of it is now private property with No TRESPASSING SIGNS everywhere. Many kids are no longer introduced to the world of hunting and shooting.
AIRGUNS IS A VIABLE answer to continue the shooing sport. Manufactures should capitalize on this issue and begin to MARKET AND ADVERTISE airgun shooting. Most folks even seasoned hunters look at you like you are crazy when you mention that you shoot air guns. They have no idea that you can do so much with the sport! TIME TO START AN AWARENESS TO THE SPORT OF AIR GUNS! Paul Capello and PA seem to get it! They have a new air gun show coming out soon, which is a start. I would love to see more and more clubs forming across America. Manufacturers would do well to spend money on the Promotions of the sport for their own good.
Not just here in the Old Dominion. My club was built in 1953 when it was totally rural. Now we have houses across the road and behind the ranges. I do agree that air gun hunting may pick up some of the slack but it could also work in reverse. Consider that more and more guns are being touted as "magnums" and you have drivel like the Gamo Hog Hunt video. If we aren't careful and emphasize how powerful the newer generation guns are (including PCP's), we may find non-shooters sweeping up air guns into the arms of firearms regulations. They've done it here in Fairfax where air guns are considered guns, period. Air guns should be perceived by the non-sporting public much the same as archery and not so much as varmint hunting. But that's just my two cents, plain.
Well said Red! What is also sad, is the vibrant deer herd in Virginia will suffer tremendously because of the lack of permits and the ability to hunt. Wasting disease is inevitable. So be it! America is changing fast! Hopefully we can start to use small acreage for Pellet gun shooting. Here in Virginia Beach, we just lost a long time range! New development in the "GREEN ZONE" wiped it out. Now sits the new "HOMEARAMA"! Million dollar homes that just sit empty now! May God Help Us!
Dave, there are more deer and turkey in Virgnia than when the colonists founded Jamestown. Biggest contributing factor is open space - farms, parks, lawns, which didn't exist back then.
Wow! what a travel story, one to remember for sure. Glad you made it back safe and sound, and as usual, your post is the most informative. I always look forward to your input. Did you get any tasty game recipes?
Hector can you please explain more about the Alu-Schaft that would hold the action and the scope? i want to know how this system work. this system in the diana 54 would be awesome recoiless to the shooter and recoilles to the scope and with the new t06 trigger.
But no, I cannot explain any further, as it is a product in process of development, not by Diana BTW. And I had, recently, a very bad experience showing ideas in another forum that were IMMEDIATELY stolen.
We already have the aluminum extrusion, now it is a question of refining the attachment points, the accesories and the whole setup.
Be sure that if we go forward, all you guys will be the first to know.
To answer the concerns voiced here in their order of appearance:
DROOP.-
Droop is PUT into EACH gun by the person that tests it. It does not come from assembly, nor is it consistent, nor is there anyway it can be dispensed with. It is part of the process.
Testers use barrel bending rigs:
like this:
to ensure that ALL guns print to POA at 10 meters with the iron sights provided, centered.
Yes, EACH AND EVERY gun that leaves the plant is tested and documented. They have an MV for ALL guns. It is part of their LEGAL insurance against tinkerers that like to exceed their legal limit.
So, if a rear sight is mounted to the left, or if the leaf is a little bit high, or if the barrel in the block was inserted just a little way off, any of these things affect the droop that is put in by the tester.
Capable gunsmiths can take off the droop; and even, performing a similar operation as the one done in the factory, get the barrel to shoot to POA at a given distance with a given pellet, scope and mount. I've done it in the past and it works. The plant cannot do it for some guns and not for others, it is part of their process and it is the step that permits them to document ME, it is also part of their ISO 9000 ('02) procedures. So it cannot be dispensed with.
OTHER CALIBERS.-
The .20" is a peculiarly American caliber. It was not popular in Europe until JSB brought out their excellent .20" JSB Exact. As much as I disagree with Doc Beeman over a number of things, I do agree with him (and others far more worthwhile airgun hunters like Mike Pearson) that it is a very good all-around caliber, ESPECIALLY in the 20 something ft-lbs power regions. If you have unlimited energy, you can do well with the .22" and larger. But if you are limited to 20'ish ft-lbs. (as most springer powerplants are), then a .20" cal. makes a lot of sense as a multipurpose, do anything, go-to gun.
POWER LEVELS.-
Spain has a 16 ft-lbs limit. Poland has a 17 ft-lbs limit. Germany has a 6 ft-lbs. limit, the UK has a 12 ft-lbs. limit. SO different power levels make for saleability to different markets. Outside Holland and Austria in Europe and the Americas (US, México and some countries in South America included, but excluding Canada), there are few countries without power limits on airguns. Making 1,000 airguns at a certain action length out of 80,000 would make either very little sense, or would make the longer actioned ones truly expensive. My focus has been to keep the action length as it is now, but make the piston strokes shorter. Not only because it easily satisfies the anti-tamper laws in the UK, but because it also satisfies the requirement for FT and other shooting disciplines where you WANT some weight for stability purposes. I've seen people complain about the weight of a D-54 only to go on and tell me that they put lead weights into their TX-200 stocks! Go FIGURE! LOL! The jury is still out, but the main emphasis has to be placed into the willingness of Diana to change their WHOLE outlook, if that is what the market is truly asking for. The obverse side of the coin is that the US is not the market, only a very small part of it. So, again, there is no specific requirement for a 23 ft-lbs 54 or 460. But they are truly capable hunters and shooters in that power level, so if you THINK you might want one, you'ld do well to consider purchasing it.
UMAREX.-
Diana is well aware of the role UMAREX is playing, their position is that they have a contract and will honour the contract. UMAREX rubs US the wrong way because we are so enthusiastic about the brand that we expect everyone else to be the same. Well, they are not. And not only are they not as enthusiastic, they have a lot of rea$on$ to be more enthusiastic about other things! Diana is not a big seller, it is a brand for connoiseurs, for people that want quality, accuracy and power in a gun they will inherit to their great-great-grandchildren (as long as the intermediate generations play their role); and there are not too many of us anymore, the whole world is going towards the "disposables"; even people are now disposeable; to a point...
There are other aspects being discussed I cannot disclose here now, but let me assure you that Diana is very conscious of the situation, on BOTH ends: ours and UMAREX's.
MARKET MAKING.-
We cannot ask from a single company to make a market. Even looking at F1, NASCAR, PGA, PTA, and other things it is clear that a single maker cannot do it alone. Yes, we need sponsorships, and yes, we need more media coverage of the good sort. We need to appear in front of the public as responsible athletes/sportspersons that are sensible and sensitive. We need a full-out PR campaign. We talked about a number of issues with Diana, one of them was striking an alliance with the German Railroads (DB). They have a large number of unused warehouses where indoor 6 ft-lbs FT could be held. They would be interested as it would be easy for everyone to arrive by train, so DB gets to sell travel tickets. Warehouses are usually secluded and have easy to maintain security perimeters. And a simple industrial grade sweep and vacuum job after the match would be all that is required to get all the lead out of the floor. Remember these matches would be shot at 6 ft-lbs. so no lead atomization would happen. Media coverage and good PR would go a long way along these lines, but rail accessibility would be fantastic! This is a win-win situation that works within the BRD (BundesRepublic Deutschland) legal framework; it is up to us to get together such initiatives that will allow airgunning to go on beyond our times.
RECIPES.-
There is NO hunting with airguns in Europe. But I have gone hunting Rebock (Roebuck) in Austria, and I have to say that every time I go there I am more and more impressed about their game quality and their dedication to the sport, as well as with their recipes; my over 4 lbs. weight gain proves it! ROFL!!!!!!
Bravo,Hector. I think Diana should hire you for their PR work. More info in two post than most of us have ever seen from Diana, Or Umarex in years. I agree with you, that it is the duty of all American and International air gun lovers to start promoting this sport. the idea of shooting in Railroad warehouses is magnificent. I believe Jan from the Netherlands also mentioned using vacant warehouses as shooting matches. WE NEED TO FORM CLUBS!
I would also like you take on the "Non-leaded pellet" issue. It seems to becoming our way soon. California is always the first and the leader for the other states to follow.Looking into the future it is obvious that pellet guns in the US will be limited to 12lbs or less. I think we all need to realize this and make the most of it.
Thanks for so much crucial info!
I understand what you are saying. Perhaps, with the 6fpe limitation, ten meters is a reasonable distance at which to zero the sights. I guess they are adjusting to within the neutral sight settings for windage and elevation? That might be why droop appears to be such an issue when guns are scoped and ranges extend to thirty or forty yards. Ten meters might be what most non-US shooters consider a good air gun distance. They still shoot seven meters indoors, don't they? Maybe M&G should zero at longer ranges those guns with heavier springs intended for export. Anyway, they have addressed this with the new droop mount.
Now, a light weight version of the 54 action at, say, 750 fps would be interesting. Has anyone ever shortened the compression tube on a 54? (I had an amateur gunsmith friend who shortened an Enfield bolt action to shoot a large pistol cartridge. Not an easy task, but doable.)
On sighting in differently the American guns.- We would be asking a company to do something for less than 10% of their market. And they really have their range adapted to high volume, 10 meter checking. We would be asking them to take the guns to another place for testing and re-aiming at, say, 30 meters.
Remember that about 90% of the cost of anything in Germany is labour. If we add labour, we add cost; if we add time, we add cost; if we add transport to and from a longer range, we add cost.
I really do think that it is better to allow competent gunsmiths here to do whatever the American customers want. JMHO.
And perhaps there is ONE point we have not discussed and that merits some thought: How would you (and others, of course, this is open to everyone's opinion!) feel if some gunsmiths here were certified by M&G? Would you pay a little bit more for their services? Would you feel more comfortable using them instead of the normal run of the mill "tuner"? How much would you think this certification can get a gunsmith per service? an extra 20 bucks?, 30 bucks?, more? All these are questions that are relevant because the European system of apprenticeships is non-existent here.
On the 750 fps short action 54.- that is the instruction we have from Herr Zedler. If the short stroke piston idea works, then the concept is to be extended to a complete short action. Goal would be 800 fps with the 0.177" cal. JSB Exacts at 8.44 grs. It should shave about 1- 1 1/4 lbs. off the 54's usual weight. It would also make it somewhat difficult to scope, as the scope would now be ALWAYS on top of the loading gate, one of the problems of the TX 200.
Again, we are looking into a number of things while at the same time keeping up the pace of production and the quality required to allow the company to survive. These are tough times. Changes always inject discontent. We need to tread carefully.
Well, consider what one poster here said about his 34 - he has run out of sight adjustment on a new gun. It may shoot fine for 10M, but the US isn't a 10M market. In this case, M&G just lost a piece of that 10%. M&G already segregates its inventory for the export markets by power levels. Adjusting such guns for less droop should not entail extra labor. It wouldn't even require an increase in the length of the test range, only a calculated adjustment in POI at 10M. And I would be willing to pay a bit more for a gun without excess droop such as in the aforementioned 34, rather than entail sending it off at additional expense to risk ruining the gun through improper adjustment or damage courtesy of the shipper. But, again, I wasn't demanding anything of M&G.
Regarding Diana certification, this takes a bit more doing than first meets the eye. M&G will have to establish some generally accepted standards and have the tuner demonstrate both proficiency in meeting those standards as well as continuing re-certification. That is going to push the cost of services up considerably if it is to amount to anything like a real certification. The old US distributor, RWS, is a fair example of how this can go very right or very wrong. When I bought my 75 some years ago, I called their New Jersey offices to ask about service and was transferred to the repair department. The technician there not only demonstrated a thorough knowledge of the 75 but was also familiar with my particular gun, a HyScore variation. It was as if he had it in hand. Then RWS shifted their service provider to an airgun supplier in another state. When I talked with them about some sights I was considering for the gun, they told me to "snap them up!", which I did. Unfortunately, they wouldn't fit and I was out about $100. On top of that, the rebuild service went up by a factor of about 75%. RWS eventually dropped this company due to a flood of complaints about poor service, etc. As a result of this experience, I would just as soon use a private tuner as send my gun to Umarex or another "official" service provider. And how would M&G feel about after-market parts (i.e. - Macarri)?
The short 54 sounds interesting. That weight/fps comes to 12fpe. What is the intent of the new rifle, sporter or FT? Would the overhang be an issue with all scopes or just the large ones associated with FT? Along the same lines, has M&G ever considered a lower powered 48 scaled back in similar fashion? While I know they are popular due to the increased performance level, you are still talking about a ten pound gun. It would be nice to see a Diana offered in a lighter, mid-powered side lever such as the Webley Tracker.
"If the short stroke piston idea works, then the concept is to be extended to a complete short action. Goal would be 800 fps with the 0.177" cal. JSB Exacts at 8.44 grs. It should shave about 1- 1 1/4 lbs. off the 54's usual weight. It would also make it somewhat difficult to scope, as the scope would now be ALWAYS on top of the loading gate, one of the problems of the TX 200."
What problems Héctor?
The problem you're referring about a scope being over the loading port, doesn't exist! This issue must be putted for tap loaders systems, like the ones in the Webley Eclipse or the Diana 46.
The AA TX-200 and the HW 97K have been used since a long time ago in the FT discipline without problems, at all. These models are, indeed, champions in this Sport (particulary the TX).
If someone has very big hands or thick fingers the answer is to use higher mounts.
Sliding system gates, like the ones on the Diana's 48/52/54, 460, and the AA TX-200, and the HW 97K, are the best for long scopes use. Doesn't matter how long, or short, the compression chamber is.
the TX200 has NO front or rear sights, they were built for a mount and a scope
they usable rail lenght for a TX200 is 8 3/4"
with a low mount and a Hawke 4 x 12 x 40 AO is 14" long, might not be a problem but
a Centerpoint 6 x 24 x 50 that is 16" long will be very difficult to scope in a TX200
first" 40MM and 50MM front bell and 14" against 16", the 40MM bell in 14" lenght is OK but 50MM with 16" in lenght lands the bell right on top of the loading port
the only way to install the 50MM bell, 16" long scope on a TX200 would be with high mounts and small fingers LOL
warren
PS: take care my friend
and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"
I know this is an old thread and some members here may groan to see it at the top. I just read this thread and a few things stick out.
I have no problems shooting non-lead pellets. I live and shoot above the water I drink and grow vegetables on. Cellular phones may give me cancer before the lead kills me, but I'd like to give myself a chance. Bismuth had a run a while back in shotgun ammunition, and I was disappointed to see it overlooked and neglected. If lead is being "phased out" for air rifles, so be it. Powder ammunition restrictions is a pandoras box that I have no suggestions for, nor hope to face.
Secondly, shooting air rifles and hunting with them are not necessarily synonymous. If I have to succumb to Non-US rules, law, legislature, etc., in order to shoot Diana, I'll gladly stay in line. The reason that I searched, for weeks, for a Diana rifle that I could afford, was because of the reputation and my ignorant appraisal of the rifles value. I had no idea of the actual performance, as any casual stroll through the Yellow will have your head spinning as ten posters will give ten different names for Best Rifle. I am RARELY brand loyal, but I can tell you that I will be buying Diana again. As long as the quality remains, I don't care which flag is flying above the factory. Germany is the Mother of this brand, and I'd like to think that generation of hands with the same surname have pressed a tool against the Diana rifles in my cabinet.
The rationale behind Mr. Medina offering the idea of M&G certified mechanics is to guarantee quality work being done on a brand that has integrity. If a person knows how to uphold the brand, they can do the work. .
Having said that, I think that the idea will be slow to take hold, here in the US at least, with so many people being "tuners" and working on anything they can. I'm sure that the certification would require a license that would cost the mechanic up-front, and ongoing, in order to tout himself/herself a M&G mechanic. Worth it? Maybe. I wouldn't want to see anyone here have to turn away work because of a license, though. Sometimes a license means nothing beside 30 years of experience.
A huge thank you to Mr. Medina for the recognition of this forum as the place where news like this really matters to people. Diana is listening.
Thankyou for sharing all this wonderfull information with us all!
As usual your inquisitive mind has gotten into realms that concern all of us "Diana Freaks" and your direct questions got direct answers on specific points concerning the future production models that the company wishes to market.
It appears that we are going to enter a very exciting era of airgun developement!
If there was a Nobel prize for the best post, your post would get it.
Fascinating insight into "Diana" which is a hugely popular brand here in India.
The Model 35 and 54 are highly sought after.
My latest addition is a Model 34. It was bought in the US and the box has the names RWS, Umarex etc. On the left side on receiver it says "MADE IN GERMANY DE" on the right side is some inscription in german which probably mentions patents etc. I believe my Diana is made in Germany, not China. Am I right in thinking that ?
Dear Hector. to my great surprise I read that lead is not allowed anymore in 2012 ? Nobody in Europe heard about the new rules so this is very interesting and where can we find the European political decision fot this statement ? It will give a enormous run on all air rifle pellets Changing to metal- or braas bullets will change ALL gun laws in ALL European countries and wil change ALL power ranges of ALL air rifles who're for sale now. ALL air rifle owners must registrate their rifles and they need a "fire weapon" certification. I think we're not that far in Europe and nobody knows about the "new green rules". We will see in the future, best regards from Johannis.
I could not find specific reference to lead pellets
November 19 2009, 6:08 AM
Did a search and came up with more generic bans such as lead importation into Denmark (2000), ban on lead wheel weights here in the US, etc. Non-lead pellets will certainly shake things up. Even if you can come up with an alternative material which will not harm the rifling, you still must solve the weight problem. What will be needed is a pellet with a heavy core surrounded by softer material to maintain the inertia required to retard the piston. It should retain the same dimensions as current pellets since existing rifling rates of twist are designed around that. Can certainly be done, but I see the costs of pellets multiply many times over due to the required change in manufacturing beyond simple swaging. Performance of non-lead pellets is another matter entirely. Not just in terms of paper punching, but hunting or casual plinking. Non-lead pellets can fragment and ricochet.
If you think air guns face a tough road, imagine how it will impact firearms. A slew of loading data will become obsolete.
Maybe we will see a return to sabot development? That could, conceivably, give the size/weight if done right. Perhaps a soft, non-lead material design like the Barnes X bullet? Already there in the muzzle loading industry.
Sounds like a basement inventor's home brew project for a cheap, low powered springer test bed. Who wants to go first?
(Please don't wreck a Diana in the process. Better let those old Chinese B-1's take the "lead".)
Not only might they be banned, pellet selection seems to be growing scarcer if you buy off the shelf. My Diana 50 seems to like Daisy wad cutters, which are all that I have around here (WalMart) except for Crosman pointeds at $5 per 175. Think I'll stock up on the Daisy's.
Hello! Is this something like "Christmas past" ghosts coming back to haunt me?
November 19 2009, 5:55 PM
ROFL!
People, this post is almost a half year old!!!
LOL!
Anyway, let´s address one by one the nice comments and issues expounded here:
Philip:
The 56 MAY be the best gun for you, and it may be not. It is still a 54 dressed up in a fancy stock and with a Match trigger. Is this worth the extra US$200 to you? If it is, congratulations! You've found "IT". And "IT" means different things to different persons. Do you like the weight? Do you like the liability to the scope? There is no denying the characteristics of the basic machine.
Personally I would agree with you for shooting.
For hunting, I would still take the 460/470 over the 54/56. Why? Weight and shape. When I am in the woods or jungles, I prefer to move about with a lighter gun that flies to the shoulder more readily; and THIS is the definition of Hunting.
When I am shooting in the beaches or the dessert, then the 54/56 would be the preferred tool. In open country, shots will be longer, you need more precision and accuracy; almost a sniper's gun more than a hunter's gun;, you need steady stability, not so much speed and a "quick ready".
Obviously for FT, silhouette, or other types of shooting endeavours the 54/56 would get the nod.
Take into account the 38+ cocking pounds and these two excellent guns may not be everyone's cup of tea. That is why the 34 is such a "wunderkind". Or the 350 may be better suited to shooting from blinds . . . and . . . you get my drift.
Again, what works for one may not work for another (a man's poison is another's elixir; or words to that effect).
We need to celebrate our diversity and our differences and construct from them, instead of going at loggerheads because of them.
Joel.- It is not so much the US laws, but the world's. The EU is phasing in a lead prohibition after 2012, CA in the US has already implemented the lead ban in some outdoor shooting. The rest of the US will follow and the EU is on track. It is not a problem for us, we might survive the lead in the environment, it is a long term problem; a question of environmental stewardship, of personal responsibility.
Don't discount Bismuth yet. I cannot tell you more, but don't discount it, yet.
The gunsmiths' certification is not a question of the supply side, but on the demand. If you had a brand new BMW, would you take it to the dealer or to any corner mechanic? Same goes for Porsche, Audi, VW or any other brand of car. Why should it be different in the airgun world?
WE as customers need to start exercising our choices and prerogatives. WE need to ask our "tuners" just how much experience have they had with the model or with the brand. That would be a start. On the cost side, I have not been able to progress too much with M&G. Let's just say that there are bigger fish to fry right now. But it is something that has been on the table and that will get pushed forward again next year at IWA.
Point 177.- RedFeather and Warren's answers were correct 100%. Rest assured your gun is 100% manufactured in DE (Deutschland).
Johannis.- My dear "Neerlandse" friend, it is the EU directives the ones that are on track. Come 2012, there will be no turning back. Crosman has put out non-lead pellets, so has Daisy. RWS has an interesting offering (the best of all the non-lead-lot, but still abysmal by comparison to normal lead pellets), and there are other offerings, like Skenco's. BUT manufacturers are still seeing only a year away, and 2012 is slightly beyond that. As I responded to Joel, I cannot tell you all more at this point in time, but rest assured that there are very capable persons working on this. I am just playing a secondary, if not tertiary role. People much more capable than myself are working on this as we write and read.
Red.- Problem will not be stocking up, but using them. As the law now is envisaged, you could end up only being able to shoot the lead pellets in YOUR OWN LAND, and then you could be mandated to disclose this when you want to sell your property. In "Otherwords", the USAGE is the one that will be mandated.
And, to be quite frank, hunting with the current non-lead offerings borders on the ridiculous. Too short a range, and abysmal terminal ballistics.
ZVP/Dale-. I am glad that you still read this, YOUR, forum my long silent friend! Hope you're well and that health smiles on you.
To all, my sincerest thanks for paying attention to what only amounts to my most humble opinions.
Hector, it doesn't matter how old your topic are ! They're always worth reading and we always discover new info in it I keep you and the forum informed about "the lead situation" over here. The clay pigeon shooting gents in the Netherlands are already forced to use steel instead of lead, the Netherlands government always want to be "the first" in the "green matters' so the sporting shooters ( bullets ) can expect the ban of lead one of these days. We have to buy a nice stock for the coming 10 years Best regards from Johannis. ( big surprise: you use our language perfect by writing "Neerlands" !! Very nice to see !! )
Many thanks for your comments. There is a rumour here that Diana now makes airguns in China. Your posts and comments remove all doubt about where they are made.
Hector, My apologies if this old post has caused you any problems.
When I am searching old posts for solutions I find gems like
this post. Yes I tend to "snipe" rather than hunt so I will keep the 56
in my sights. Thank You for all your contributions to the sport.
54 /52 /5G now.
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