RedFeather (no login) from IP address 173.73.138.204
A recent thread on another forum about "are Diana's worth the extra $$$?" got me to thinking why is Diana charging a premium for styling that went out of fashion over thirty years ago? By that I mean the no-frills stocks on the 24 and 34. Bare wood butts may have been fine when the market was Farmer Brown looking for a utility gun to dispatch rats and pigeons in the barn, but now even the cheapest Chinese guns have some kind of pad or buttplate. Competitors' guns in the 24 and 34 price range offer recoil pads, checkering and even thumbhole stocks. If you want that in a Diana, you have to shell out even more for a 36 and then you really aren't getting much of an upgrade, at that. Diana needs to set itself apart from the clones and drop the Plain Jane wrappers. Drop the 36 moniker and just put those stocks on the 34's, at the least. If they want to offer a premium gun and call it a 36, let them do the stock in walnut, etc. It's getting harder and harder to justify spending half again as much to buy a Diana over a BAM. Let's face it, buttplates are now even standard issue on Slavia's.
Red, I just posted this on the other thread:
Facts of life
Red, here is something to consider. What percentage of pellet gun buyers are devoted hobbyist and what percentage are folks that are going to probably buy just one gun and shoot it every few weekends for a number of years? If you go into a big box store to buy a pellet gun, and you see the shelves lined up with 15 or so of the Gamo's, Crosman, etc. Do your really think that the average Joe is going to go behind the main counter and ask for the more expensive Diana? You know the ones starting at a price tag of almost double? If a guy goes online to buy a pellet gun to have a little fun shooting grackles or a few squirrels and see's the Bam web page and the cloned gun's that come close to what he is looking for half the price, to you think he really cares that the Beeman R9 or the Diana 48 is a better gun? My first pellet gun was a crosman Quest. I had a blast shooting that gun.
I would say that 90% of the market fall into that category.
That is the market Red.If Diana does not want to do any Marketing and Awareness of their line, then too bad for them.
Red, Hector's trip to the Diana factory got me to thinking. He stated that Diana is not overly concerned about the US Market. Only a small percentage of their guns are sold here in the US. Now, the Europeans have a 12lb limit which in my opinion is the perfect higher poundage for a air gun anyway. Most Europeans do not shoot with a scoop. They seem to be a more refined shooter than the US counterpart that is mainly interested in HIGH VELOCITY! Let's face it. America is the land of "more is better" Bigger is Better" a Whooper is Better that a regular hamburger, a Big Gulp soda is better! WHY do you think Gamo started marketing their guns with the ridiculous Raptor Pellet? Because they GET IT! Faster is better in the American Market! Sell a cheap gun, put a cheap Butt Plate on the gun and cheap muzzle break, and sell the HELL OUT OF SPEED!! It's the Europeans that want Quality Red not the Americans.Remember the words of Wisdom from the Master:
"Forget massive power as that equates solely into massive problems. Accept a nice 11-12 ft lbs and you could have a real nice gun"!
This is what Diana should be marketing!JMO
Dave@vabch
Where did any thing get said about power. Its looks and appearance if I read it right. Diana has to step up to the plate and produce some beauty and get out of the cold war looking guns. The actions and the poundage is fine. Look what Beeman did for Wirauch . They beatified them.
Forgot to add that fancy stocks do nothing when you're out in the woods hunting. Dianas are about function not fashion (they just happen to look good).
This is what begins to affect sales. If I had the choice between a Diana 34, on sale at PA for $227, and Ruger Air Hawk for $125 most anywhere, I guess I would be tempted to choose the Ruger. Especially if I did my homework and searched the Ruger on a few forums. C'mon, for over $100 more, the 34 should at least give you a butt pad (and a bit longer stock, while they're at it.) You don't buy the steak, you buy the sizzle. Like it or not, that's how sales operate, here and abroad. As to Germans being more discerning air rifle buyers, I don't think so. Maybe more frugal?
I would buy the Ruger also.I also bet the guy that buys a gamo whisper enjoys the heck out of the gun. Atually now that I mention it. They actually look and feel good. Most of the review that I see are positive. For the average JOE I really believe some of the other guns are a better choice for the money.
High volume/low margin sales are one strategy, but not the only one.
Ideally, for us consumers, it would be a high quality/low cost product. Like JSB pellets.
Problem?.- scarcity. You do not always get them, AND the price now is not what it used to be. The first JSB pellets I bought I bought for less than $3.00 the tin of 500 Exacts. So, things move.
Even JSB is looking in hard terms at the market; and products of higher value added are being researched as we speak.
At the current rate of exchange and under the current economic conditions, the market in Europe is far more solid than the one in USA, and catering to a high volume/low margin market can and will break a company not ready nor suited to it. That is why Daimler sold Chrysler off; even at a huge loss. It would have sunk them if they had waited another year to sell off the bad asset.
The current world of luxury/de luxe products is mostly based on handcrafted stuff. Not Chinese/Turkish/Malaysian/Mexican . . . whatever level of craftsmanship. And it's those companies that cater to the "people with means" the ones that are surviving and thriving.
The world is at an economic, social and political crossroads. A LOT more is riding on the current evolution of the markets' trends than meets the eye. The world we will be living in the next 20 years depends on what happens in the next 18 months; and some scenarios are NOT nice.
But to come back to airguns:
Some people are traditionalists and some like change, I have no problem with that, but let me tell you that is costs more to cut the butts to NOT use a pad, than to add one. It would be a cost saving measure to put buttpads in all guns. It just so happens that the market for those guns that do not have buttpads wants exactly that.
I think Diana fits the VW niche a bit better. All I was saying is that Diana could stand a face lift on their entry level air rifles. As to a bare butt being preferable in the Euro market, the only Continental offerings I could find without a butt pad were two bottom line Cometas. Perhaps it isn't a matter of preference so much as acceptance.
As one of the aforementioned occasional shooters and pest slayers the 34 is EXACTLY what I want. I would prefer the butt face be straight instead of curved but my issue with shoulderbility I took care of with a strip of Pachmayr Grip material. Quick reversible fix.
My RWS 34 is a 1991 model ($75.00 used) and it performs flawlessly. I can't say about new rifles 'cause I usually buy used but if it comes down to a $50-$75 difference between a new rifle like a Ruger or Gamo and a used RWS 34 then the 34 wins every time in my book.
All my friends that own a springer own a RWS 34, usually after first trying to go cheap. From what I have seen they will pick a RWS over another brand due to the quality of manufacture and a decent price. You pay for what you get even though it might be "plain jane". IMHO folks like myself that usually shoot firearms want a air rifle kept as simple as possible but also want quality. Plinking and pest control need not be that complicated.
These days with folks paying $500+ for a darn crossbow it's not much of a stretch to see them pay $225 or so for a quality air rifle like a RWS 34.
why is it that JM make springs for the full lenght of the Diana AG?? compared to the Chinese or Turkey??
aftermarket parts that will fit your AG for 10 or 20 years are a consideration BUT
RD has a point, the Chinese can replicate below cost all these AG with extras
1srelluc wrote:
"I usually buy used but if it comes down to a $50-$75 difference between a new rifle like a Ruger or Gamo and a used RWS 34 then the 34 wins every time in my book."
and I say "add me to your book"
you CANNOT beat the RWS 34 for the price, go ahead and buy other brands then shot the 34, find the difference
Red; I have an arsenal of Chinese AG but a Gun room of Diana's and for $100.00 more the quality of a German AG will win over a copy of one Chinese
some, AND understand that SOME Chinese will be even or above the quality of the German AG but that is only 10% of them not %100 of them
resell value?? try to sell a copy of the 34 and see what you get for it
should I continue??
warren
and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"
Ok, so you take a Ruger air hawk and you spen about $70.oo for a JM spring kit. Now you have a nice gun with Butt pad and less droop problems. Take a new 34 and you still have to get a spring kit. At least mine did. It was a twangy mess before a tune. I think I would prefer a nice airhawk tuned to a untuned Diana. Seems I would come out ahead of the game. As far as resale value? I doubt there is much difference either way, at least nothing significant. JMO
Ok, so you get a Ruger air hawk, that comes with a "STEEL TRIGGER" and a butt pad, and less droop issues. Now you take a 34 with no pad, a plastic trigger and yet you still have to get a new spring kit. Mine was a twangy mess before the tune. After a good tune, I would think that the Air hawk would make a mighty fine gun. It seems the customer of the Hawk would come out a head. As far as resale value? I doubt there would be much difference. I would purchase a used Air Hawk with all the xtras including a JM kit over a 34 without. JM)
As a boy I owned the various Daisy and Crosman airguns. I then moved on to "powder burners" as they are referred to on airgun forums. Then in 2002 I was once again bitten by the airgun bug and after doing a bit of research I purchased a RWS 34. The main reason was the reputation it had built as, in my opinion based on research, the best $200.00 airgun built. Maybe not the prettiest or most feature laden but the most reliable and trouble free in that price range. I have used and abused this airgun ever since. It was not until recently that I have ran into any problems which were mine in the making (which I think I have fixed just today). The RWS has been a solid dependable airgun. I am well satisfied. I have never owned any springer other than RWS (I recently bought a RWS350) so I cannot say if it is indeed the best 200.00 airgun or not. I'm not knocking anyone elses air gun...The point I'm trying to make is I initially bought the RWS 34 because of reputation...not frills.
Ted you most definitely bought a great air gun and so glad you have gotten so much pleasurable use out of it. (and with many more I am sure).I guess that the trigger you have is steel? Or is it the plastic trigger? Have you added a butt pad on it since or had it tuned? Suppose today, you had a chance to buy a nice Ruger that was tuned and actually shot better than the Diana stock, and yet it did not have droop issues and had more amenities, would you consider the Ruger? I have a nice 34, and a tune on it that makes it one smooth shooting gun. Now cocks like a R7 and shoots like silk.My friend who did the tune, measured my reach and added a adjustable Macarri butt plate. I would never trade this nice Diana. That said, Given how the Chinese have improved so much, today I would certainly consider a Air hawk. Anyway, it will be very interesting to see how well Tim's new Ruger shoots when he is done with tuning it etc. He is a Diana affectionado for sure, and I know him enough to shoot straight on the comparison. Thanks for your imput.
I doubt the 34 would be much over the Air Hawk, if at all. The Ruger is a very close copy in most respects. It does have the metal trigger but I doubt that I could tell much difference were it plastic as on a 34. Neither one is a top-of-the-line springer, just good guns.
How 'bouts we just start shooting guns instead of shooting them down? After all, variety is the spice of life.
My RWS 34 appears to have a plastic trigger and steel trigger guard. No buttpad and I have just shot it off and on for the last 8 years without ever taking it apart. I have never had it tuned and would not know where to begin if I tried to do it myself. I recently moved to a subdivision just outside city limits and have gotten into the habit of sitting out on my deck in the evenings shooting targets and birds. I have made a habit of doing this almost every evening since spring and have really enjoyed myself. I enjoyed it so much I recently purchased a RWS 350. By reading and taking the advice of members on this airgun forum and the one at StraightShooters.com I have learned to hold the springers loosely and that has really helped accuracy for me. My longest hit this year with the 34 is 74 yards (killed black bird) and 78 yards with the 350 (killed robin). Many 40-50 yard hits. This was almost impossible for me until I gleaned the knowledge about holding the springers loose. I still miss alot but I'm getting better...great economical hobby.
Now, these shots are with iron sights. My biggest complaint about the RWS 34 is the damn barrel droop. What causes this. I nave tried 5-6 times over the years to scope the 34. The scopes I used run out of adjustment before I can dial them in. Even then they always shook loose while trying to get them sighted in. My 34 came with a two piece steel (heavy) adjustable rings. These things have set screws all over them which always shook loose. I just gave up a used the iron sights.
And I love Rugers...I have .270, 7mm mag, and a sweet SS Security Six (the best .357 revolver IMHO) . I want quality and reliability. If Ruger has built a air rifle equal or superior to the RWS then of course I would buy one. RWS would then be forced to improve their products and be price competitive to earn/maintain their place in the free market. Isn't that how it's suppose to work. We, the consumers, benefit from competition.
I stated earlier that I have only owned RWS springers...that was not true. In the mid 80's I did buy a $25.00 chinese underlever .177 springer which I kept aroung for many years. I had almost forgotten all about it. It had decent power but was very rough, twangy, and rarely used. I bought it at a truck stop in Carlisle, Indiana. I do not remember what happened to it. I'm glad to hear chinese airguns are being made with more quality now. I own many, many powder burners rifles, handguns and a few shotguns. From a .458 Lott to a .17 MK2 and most all calibers in between. But I cannot shoot them in my subdivision without disturbing my neighbors. I hope to learn more on this forum to improve my air guns, become a better marksman with them, and to maintain them properly. Next up is how to lighten the trigger pull on both of my springers.
177 in RWS34. 22 in RWS350. Again, I'm not trying to criticize anyone else's airgun or decision to buy a brand other than RWS. I just happened to be a satisfied RWS owner. Truth is...I would love to have one of those Beeman Goldfingers! Great looking airgun.
Ted, Get a R7 and you will never regret it. Also if you like to shoot around fussy neighbors or indoors get a Baikal model 61. Both are very quiet and so much fun.
. I want quality and reliability. If Ruger has built a air rifle equal or superior to the RWS then of course I would buy one. RWS would then be forced to improve their products and be price competitive to earn/maintain their place in the free market. Isn't that how it's suppose to work. We, the consumers, benefit from competition.