Personally I believe there is some truth to the statement. (before you begin attacking, I'm a springer guy). While springers are not outdated or obsolete,you can't deny that their is whole lot of enthusiasm going toward PCP's.Just go check out the yellow forums, full of post about them. I think they even dominate the questions now. First you had the RWS Hammereli 850 become very popular and now is being converted to HPA then the success of the Discovery and now the ever popular Marauder, you can see a new evolution of where the air guns are going. They appeal especially to the American Magnititus crowd.They are accurate and very powerful. More and more pcp's are coming into the market every day. The manufactures seem to have a keen grasp on this evolution. They are trying to make them less expensive and easier to refill. When a new electric home compressor comes out, they will explode with sales.
Crosman hired new engineers,that are not letting grass grow beneath their feet. They see this new trend and are doing a heck of a job. Other manufactures are not going to sit by and get lost in the race. I believe the PCP will eventually be the dominant air gun in the future. Heck, a lot of folks thought that nothing would replace the horse and buggy! PCP's are coming and they are coming fast. JMO
When you compare the 100% motorcycle like the Royal Enfield 350 Bullet is with the Brammo Enertia you see the question ? What is future and what is past ? These facts only exist in people's imagination, shooting is all what counts and I know a lot of people in your beautifull country like the springers. Have a look athttp://www.enertiabike.com/ and compare Best regards from Johannis.
P.S. I like the Royal Enfield most like I prefer the Mahindra instead of the Mitsubishi's etc.
Dave, hard to find and very hard to drive ! If you're looking for something old fashioned and very solid let me know, we have some very nice and old fashioned bicyles in the Royal Enfield Bullet style here, you know we're living in a bicylce friendly country. Best regards from Johannis.
i love my Medici Pro Strada. been riding it for 25 years.
now, back to springers. when i first started in field target there were far more springer shooters turning up than pcp. now it is reversed. tons of pcp guys showing up and some top springer guys converting.
I love my Lugged Waterford with Reynolds 753 tubing, but I do ride my Eddy Mercyx Titanium with Carbon fiber fork even more (although Eddy would turn over in his grave about my triple if he weren't still alive!).
Re PCP's - I decided I don't shoot them as much as my springers because of the hassle of getting the tank filled (so that cheap/quality compressor thing might be the needed impetus in my case). If you are a diver, that is no issue, but if not, you are spending hours in foreign territory to get a fill that maybe only lasts 500 shots (another + for Marauder as when the tank drops to say 2700psi, the 2000psi Marauder is still good to go).
I have been shooting my 850 this am. Damn problems. I will have to send off to get a 90z conversion and a tune to Roald at the 850 store. That is about as far as I am going in the PCP world. Valves, regulators, tanks, fittings, space to place, pipes whatever! Excuse me while I go get my Very Old Vintage HW30mk11 to finish shooting these starlings.
there is certainly something to be said for the self contained
August 13 2009, 11:02 AM
simplicity of the springer. for the average joe,(and the not so average joe)this is often the least troubleome option. i read on the yellow all the time
about the problems and complications of the pcp. it is not a forgone conclusion that they will be out of the box accurate and without headaches.
in a competative environement they certainly shine but in ft they shoot in their own class and the springers in theirs (at least for now). at the olympic level the pcp is king but that is such a highly specialized role. for backyard plinking and general walk in the the woods hunting the springer is nice. no other gear to worry about.
this saturday i will be shooting a springer in "iron sights pistol" silhouette.
will i be competative. no, but not because of the pistol.
Except deer keep jumping into my freezer, dying from a .530 home cast ball behind 100gr of FFG from a .54 TC Renegade? I like a challange like springers, hunting is too easy with modern toys.Done e'm with crossbows too!Quarter mile executions with a .270 amounts to shooting not hunting.................Harold
Hopefully I can still find a place to shoot my light springers which I dearly love.Just shot my Little R7, and realize what I really like about a nice tuned springer.
Jack Burns: It's true though. Have you ever noticed how many fences there're getting to be? And the signs they got on them: no hunting, no hiking, no admission, no trespassing, private property, closed area, start moving, go away, get lost, drop dead! Do you know what I mean?
From the great Movie "LONELY ARE THE BRAVE" WITH KIRK DOUGLAS
Springers will return to vogue one day. Think of it this way - who in their right mind would shoot a muzzleloader? Those who want a challenge, yes some. Those who want an extended hunting season, yes some. Some who are taking advantage of new powders, less cleaning, more accuracy, more weather proof rifles...Yes many.
Springers have the distinct advantage of being self sufficient. Even with the dawn of a home compressor or hand pumps for PCP's - You still gotta have the gear to keep shooting. A compressor needs electricity...
What I predict is the the springers will (are) going out of vogue, but the springer manufacturers will respond with new, improved (read have all the tunes people currently pay for ala the customized 1911 pistol) guns and people will say - Hey, wait a minute here, look at the power accuracy and self sufficiency of this new springer from Diana (hopefully)! People will take a look and the Springer Revolution will be born!!
Just my 0.02. I'll keep shooting springers through the PCP craze cuz I don't want to pump a PCP up all the time just to use it Remember that bike you had with a leaky tire? How many times did you pass on a ride because you didn't want to drag the pump out and fill it up? I dont want the entrance cost either. Dont want the noise that is associated with some PCPs either. Don't want the pellet lubing and washing. Dont want alot of that. Just grab my springer, walk out the door and make the cans dance 33yards away at the back fence......
when i was a kid living in southern california we had our bb guns and would spend many hours "hunting" in the orange groves that were all around us. we had lots of open space and no one bothered us. when i was a teen i could drive out to Hemet and shoot my .22 magnum at jack rabbits to my hearts content. no one said boo. now it is wall to wall houses or fenced, posted private land and everyone says "boo". i can only comfortably shoot if i go to Prado and pay their range fee and punch paper. they limit us to the 25yd pistol range and i have to put up with a ton of noise and stress. i hesitate to ever shoot in my back yard unless it is very early in the morning and i absolutely need to do a
20 yard zero on my ft rifle. my cousins and i own 120 acres of desert land on the other side of the sidewinder mountains out near Victorville but the drive out there is a grunt and it is hot and windy.
is it similar in Mexico, Hector? Or is it still pretty wide open?
By the way, Jack Burns line came from the movie Lonely are the Brave" and that was in the 50's!!! My favorite move of all time. I highly recommend it.
I posted this pick on the yellow. It is 300 yards form my house where I escape to do some shooting, Pic was taken last fall, Within the past two weeks it has been mauled down to make room for a stinken Walmart. I went out the other day, and under one scraggy pine that you seen at the far end of the field, that was left, a Buck arose and just stood staring at me like what the hell happened? More jumped up and ran to nowhere.
SPACE, distance and real estate to shoot 100, 200, 300 yards to shoot either in a spring, PCP or Rim fire gun
who has that space???
maybe you have the space but the LAW's Say "you cannot hunt" this animal or that one or that you can only hunt from Monday to Wednesday or that it can only be with non-lead ammo or only these species (animals)
and then space means nothing
they don't have to take your weapon's only the ammo your space and then tell you what to shoot at
here in my part of Florida you CANNOT shoot a squirrel, read CANNOT careful not even crows'
the Humane Society is watching you and it is a 18 months PROBATION, you read that right 18 months if caught
sorry for this rant
warren
and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"
So is a 1969 Jaguar XKE or a Ford Cobra. Add to that a 1955 Thunderbird or MGTD roadster. No doubt about it. Go over to the American Vintage Airgun forum and look at all those HW55's which would be as out of place in a modern 10M match as a horse and buggy at LeMans. Still, they remain very nice to shoot and have an intrinsic quality which is unequaled by "modern" guns such as the Discovery. Ditto for some of the older, "obsolete" sporting springers. Yes, the design has been surpassed in a few areas by PCP's but shooting isn't always about the latest technology.
Last comment in this topic: friends when you compare the Air Arms Pro Sport with the Air Arms S400 it's quite simple to say why we prefer springers ? Beautifull and streamlined versus beatifull BUT with an extra "barrel" what makes the most of the PCP's very ungainly. However I own a S400 I still prefer the looks and behaviour of springers. Like Warren said: "springer shooting is shooting a rifle with a soul" ! Best regards from Johannis.
Precharge pneumatics predates the spring piston power plant. Spring guns are a relative newcomer compared to PCPs. It is the development of SCUBA diving equipment & the restrictive firearm ownership laws in England & Korea that spurred the resurgence of precharge guns.
I still shoot the crosman model 140 (1954) and pump it 6 times it only gives me 600 FPS (650 with 8 pumps) .22 cal. and 14.3 gr. pellets, NO scope rail so you shoot with open sights and they are CRUDE iron sights
it is a 1/2" CTC at 20 yards all day long NO recoil 34" long with a 19" barrel
none of my 34's can match it in accuracy at 20 yards with 5 shots but my 34's can outshoot it at a distance (40 yards)
warren
and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"
As of year before last, it really depended on where in México you were talking about. Mexico City is almost as bad as New York or LA. In Puerto Vallarta, while I was the Quality Director of the construction site I was working on, I had "pest elimination privileges". And the shooting range was ony 1 hr. away from my home. Since shooters there were mostly firearms shooters and ammo was so expensive/Black Market/illegal, they shot only once or twice a year, so I pretty much had the range to my girlfriend and myself most of the time.
Here in CT, I can shoot in my yard at present, and the house we just purchased was purchased with an eye to have at least one "side corridor" capable of a 55 yards lane (we hada survey commissioned to assert this). We reviewed the town's ordinances beforehand and some towns were disqualified because they were hostile to airguns. So those towns lost the revenue of our taxes. If more shooters and hunters did that I am sure some towns would look at things differently. Yes, my girlfriend will have a longer commute, and yes, we will be spending a little bit more in taxes, but as someone said: "Freedom isn't free" and also "you have to put your money where your mouth is". So, NY was out, NJ was out and some towns in CT were out.
We hope to have made the right decision, and the "urbanization" of the country is one of the reasons why,IMHO, shrouded airguns are right, whether they are Talons, or the Marauders, or other variants.
Going low power is another way of keep shooting, like the Walther LG-3, but that Soft-air approach is best left to countries with SERIOUS urbanization like the ones in Europe; and even then the problems have different solutions (EG: a 130 mile trip to a range takes only a one hour's drive in Germany). We, in the US, can still enjoy the thrill of shooting a 20-30 ft-lbs gun in our own yard, as long as we are civil enough not to disrupt the relations with the neighbours, and as long as we chose our townships of residence properly.
I have an 850 and a Rodr and a few very nice HW springers and after getting use to no recoil, noise or weight and super accuracy, I have been thinking the same thing. Springers do have their place, I would never sell my R1,R7,HW97K,or my 34s .20&.22, but my Co2 850 and PCP Rodr are getting a lot of use and are a whole lot of fun.
When the time came to buy my air rifle I only knew I wanted a springer air rifle.
The reasons were manyfold.
First there was my desire of being as much independent as possible.
"Gas driven" rifles depend on bottles of compressed air - something I don't want out hunting or simply plinking around the afternoon. After the air bottle is depleted - what could I do?
The only limitation with a springer was my supply of ammo.
Heck, even if I'd ruin my barrel and maybe the piston - I could even shoot self casted bulltes.
Then there are these pump-action-rifles. You've got to pump to "load" yet another built-in pressure bottle. Too much effort for my taste.
A fine springer may deliver quite the same accuracy - for less money on the long run plus it gives me independency.
I have my Diana 54 now. I am absoultely happy with it even now that it seems it finally ruined my first scope. I am not a big time hunter - but now and then I like hunting some bird for dinner. One shot - one kill. I could not ask more for an incredible rifle I insanely love - some rifle that only needs a sidelever to be pulled to have loads of fun.
I have alway's believed that the Springer was made to shoot between 10 to 30 yards.This distance makes the springer a perfect gun.(What springers are fun to shoot all day, easy to cock,no problems and very accurate?) The Magnititus crowd did not want to accept this. They had to have more and more powerful guns. Faster pellets, faster guns, more magnums, stronger springs and on and on. Slowly emerged the need for a PCP! Do you really want all that power? Get a nice R7,or a nicely tuned 34, and you will have the fun of your life. Beyond that, get a PCP. JMO
Dave@vabch
"Forget massive power as that equates solely into massive problems. Accept a nice 11-12 ft lbs and you could have a real nice gun"!
A PCP can shoot further and more accuret than any springer,I have seen them advertised at 220 ft/lbs so why not get a rimfire and not have all the cylinders,tubes, gages,compressors,leaks,checks and so on.
A 48/52/54/350/460 can shoot at about 25% of the power of a .22 that's OK for a spring dont you think.
Barry.
Seems a 22. cal would be the logical way to go.However, the Marauder is now so quite and legal. Sometimes I think the PCP boy's love the tinkering and tweaking that goes along with the gun more than the gun itself. I have known guys that would rather tune a gun than shoot one.
I must admit that I like tinkering with spring guns almost as much as shooting them.
So its the noise factor why people choose PCP over rimfire in the US, Would it more easy to get a 100 ft/lbs PCP than a .22 leagaly in most of the US? I think I would go for the simplicity of a springer or if needed a .22
Barry.
Barry, I am just guessing on the Noise factor. I guess they like PCP's just for the fact. Just like some people raise a eyeball when I say I say I like to shoot pellet guns for a hobby. Some guy's collect coins, some stamps. I was in a house the other day and this guy had a entire room with "Star Wars" junk. This guy was in his late 40's. Buying a 22.cal rifle is very easy in the US. Many guy's own some really nice one's and have matches just like FT. That is how I started with guns. Shooting 22's in NRA matches when I was about 9 yrs old. I am please that folks love their PCP's. For me, just trying to find time and a place to shoot my springer's is a full time job. All the gadgets and all the equipment and tweaking of pcp's seems like it would be a personal hell. I am probably wrong on this, but that is the way it appears to me.
.....''SPRINGER SHOOTING IS SHOOTING A RIFLE WITH A SOUL''...
heres' the brief summary...
....thing of the past, outdated....these things exist in people's imagination...
....shooting is what counts...
....simplicity and self sufficiency of the springer...
....there is a place and time for springers and pcp's...
....more challenging shooting with a springer...
..... valves,regulators,tanks,fittings,leaks,tubes,pipes,compressors,pumps,bottles,diving equipment,gauges,pellet lubing and washing....not my cup of tea...
I just want to grab a springer and shoot to my heart's content...
While reading through the thread and various opinions it struck me that what facinates me about these springers is similar to why I like Swiss watches. It's the mechanics of it. These springers are amazing little machines...independent, self-sufficient, precision tuned and will last forever with proper care. Swiss watches aren't the most accurate either, but as the previous poster mentioned, it's a machine with a soul. If you want the best accuracy you buy a quartz watch...but if you have an appreciation for the machine, Swiss is the way to go. I feel the same about these springers vs. PCP and I'm sticking with the springer.
_______
Bob R.
The never-ending discussion about Springers vs. PCP's. They are both good. I have both. I like both. There are many good things about a PCP as are for Springers.
What gets me is, that people that have never shot or bought a PCP are putting them down or saying I would never own one, blah blah.
I was scared of them first and all "the gear", but there 's really not much gear at all. I bought the Scuba tank used and bought the yoke with hose all together. It came in 1 piece. I set it up on the Scuba tank in under a minute and then hooked up my PCP to it in about 3 secs, which is all it takes to connect a male connector to a quick-connnect/disconnect Foster fitting on the end of the hose. I turned the Scuba tank valve open slowly and watch the gauge. I was done with my "new equipment" and had my PCP gun filled for the 1st time, in way under 5min. - my 1st time! You then leave the Scuba alone with the yoke on it, hose hanging there, etc. until the Scuba is empty! All you do is bring your gun (or gun's tank from a Talon/Condor, etc.) over to it and connect it in about 1sec. to the hose. Turn the valve.. 30-45secs later you are done if you released the air slowly, and go back to shooting! Nothing to it FOLKS!!! Stop being scared and working yourselves up about PCP's. It's all in your head. The same reason people don't buy a business or go on their own and be their own boss. They are scared and don't like taking risks, or listen to what other people tell them, that have never owned a business before.
So what you guys are basically saying is that the Million or so people in the US that own PCP's don't know what they are doing or what they are missing - the Springers. People.. just use some common sense, and stop and think about it..
Dave (VaBch) is trying to remain neutral and Open Minded as all of you should be doing. We have several great Springer guys here with a lot of knowledge that also own PCP's. There is nothing wrong with owning both, and if anything, the PCP will reward you with same-hole groups over & over. My sister was over the other day and I convinced her and her husband to do some airgun shooting. My sister has carpal tunnel and could not cock even my 36. So I gave her a couple of PCP's to shoot, after I got tired of cocking guns for her. My brother-in-law immediately liked the PCP's a lot more over the Springers and did not want to shoot the Springers any longer. It's like I always said. Start with the Springers first so you get used to them and appreciate them, and then buy a PCP. Out of curiosity if anything. Then you will appreciate a good PCP and will not part with your Springers if you look at its advantages closely which is mainly its self-contained powerhouse without an external source. PCP guns a lot easier to take apart and work on them. You don't need any special tools unless you are modifying the valve and polishing it. Most people don't do that kind of work and send it out if they want more power and better consistency from their valve. Most PCP's don't need any work at all - no tuning! It is my opinion that 90% or more of the Springers sold today need some kind of tuning, or at least a good lube tune. I will not own another Springer again unless it is tuned or gets a tune. My springers are all professionally tuned. PCP's don't need anything but maybe lube the breach o-ring every couple of thousand shots which can be done in a few minutes and have everything put back together in under 10min., or you replace the o-ring (in the more powerful PCP's) every few thousand shots. The breach o-ring (or o-rings in some guns) get blasted with a lot more air (than Springers) so they tend to dry up or fail after a while. Nothing more different than a breach seal or a piston seal wearing out in a Springer. If you have not owned a PCP, you cannot know everything that's associated with them. Most of you read about them in the forum where people are trying to tinker with them, etc. You read about fittings and hoses, but you don't have a clear picuture in your head about it all, and it seems too complicated or like too many parts to worry about. You could not be more wrong. There is nothing to them. Most PCP's can be taken apart completely in 5min. and put back together in 10min. or less. I would like to see you do that with a Springer while messing around with a Spring compressor to put them back together.
If you do not own a PCP, get one, and then come back and tell me how complicated it is to operate them or fill them with a Scuba tank. Do a comparison between your Springer and PCP, and then I 'll be quiet 4-5,000 shots ater when your Springer will need some maintenance or repair, tell us what repairs your PCP needed with as many shots, and which was harder or more costly to fix.
----
Diana 350 .22 aka "Old Tim" (J.W. tuned)
Diana 36 .177 CDT tuned
Lemak custom AF Condor .25
Talon Tunes AF Condor .25
Airhog tuned AF Condor .22
RWS Hammerli 850 .22
Crosman 2300XT Custom .22
Other Crosman Pump & CO2 .177
Nice to see that there are so many people who still join the "old fashioned" way of air rifle shooting ! It's like writing letters instead of e-mails with on old fashioned fountain pen ! Superb topic and thanks to the topic starter who let us realise that the springer shooters are a fantastic group of people !! Good weekend and best regards from Johannis.
True.. but that's what you said last summer too, Dave
If you really don't have a need for it I would say don't get one. I mainly own PCP's because it's easy to put a shroud on them and make them very quiet for hunting which is what I wanted. I needed guns that were powerful and "neighbor-friendly". At the same time I can have 3-4x the power of a Magnum Springer and all you hear (or don't hear) is "tink"! I needed a very accurate gun to take out medium-sized small game (raccoon, possum, groundhog & fox) at 40-60yds with very accurate shots to a certain spot in the head. Those were my reasons for getting a PCP. Ok 3 PCP's.. But rest assured when those critters are inside 35yds, the 350 .22 does short work of them. Inside 25yds, the 36 .177 handles them just as well although I have not tried it on a coon yet, not sure I will.
----
Diana 350 .22 aka "Old Tim" (J.W. tuned)
Diana 36 .177 CDT tuned
Lemak custom AF Condor .25
Talon Tunes AF Condor .25
Airhog tuned AF Condor .22
RWS Hammerli 850 .22
Crosman 2300XT Custom .22
Other Crosman Pump & CO2 .177
Harry I have to agree with most of what you say but one of the things I disagree with is that I think that PCP are hassle,
hear in the UK the airguns magazines and forums are mostly PCP and are considered more humane at 12 ft/lbs.
For me springers and PCP are completely different, like bows and crossbows.
This forum was 99% springers because Diana was but now its changing so I had better get used to it, but I hear all the time of people going back to springers because of the hassle, there are still a lot of springer fans out there.
Barry.
Sorry to hear about your job. Yes the economy is the worse since the Depression with unemployment in the double-digits. They said 9.8% the other day in the new, but I think it's more like 12-13%. Then I read this report that the Dept. of Transportation said 15-17% less cars were on the road in NY and NJ in '08 as comnpared to '07. Most of the calculations were derived from Toll collecting on the NY <--> NJ bridges. Wouldn't that make the unemployment "estimate" closer to 15% in those 2 states?
Anyway I 'm struggling to keep my job too right now and I think it's a matter of time before they have more lay-offs. We can only hope it will get better. Many of my friends have lost their jobs and I really feel for them. It's a horrible feeling. I got laid off in the early '90's during that recession for a couple of months, and I know how it feels. If I didn't have my Deli then to fall back on, I would have been devestated.. like if I get laid off now.. nothing to fall back on this time! I should have stayed in the food business.
----
Diana 350 .22 aka "Old Tim" (J.W. tuned)
Diana 36 .177 CDT tuned
Lemak custom AF Condor .25
Talon Tunes AF Condor .25
Airhog tuned AF Condor .22
RWS Hammerli 850 .22
Crosman 2300XT Custom .22
Other Crosman Pump & CO2 .177
Harry has some experience with Magnum spring air rifles and a couple pf PCP's, his advice is solid and true
PCP's means added costs
Air rifles with springs means SELF contained
but
Lewis and Clark did not have a spring air rifle they had a PCP one back in the 1800's and they had an amazing travel
back to the real issue
wake up and pick an air rifle and shoot it withing 1 minutes after you cock it and insert a pellet and under 20 yards you get a 1 /2 CTC and with either a Beeman, Diana, FW, HW
now at a 40, 60, 80, 100 yards to get a 1/2 CTC consistently you need 10 minutes for this SET UP and a PCP air rifle to go along with this
1 minute spring air gun at 280 fps with 1/2 CTC and $600.00 OR a 5 minutes set up PCP with 900 fps for $1,000 to take the same shot
about your analogy or what you are comparing Warren, but since you mention "wake up and shoot a pellet", that is exactly how I get most of the racoons & possums at night. My driveway alert system alerts me of a critter approaching my garbage cans or a bait station that I might have set up outside. I literally wake up at 2, 3 or 4am, grab a Condor, load a pellet, stagger quietly to a window and shoot them at various distances (always more than 20yds) right between the eyes. I have strong flood lights all around the house so I can see and shoot accurately to 35-40yds.
I am not sure about the "5min. setup" with a PCP.. You just have to have the tank filled and ready to go, when you are hunting anyway. It takes about a minute to fill the tank. In your example of 60, 80 & 100yd shooting, a PCP will be advantageous over the Springer only because of the fact that you can shoot 21-32gr (in .22) pellets - much heavier than a Springer can handle, but I 'm getting ahead of my self here..
NOW, the problem with using a Springer when hunting or target shooting, is that the first couple of shots don't always hit the bullseye when the gun (piston seal) is cold! I always have to take at least 2-3 practice shots before I start target shooting to make the groups count. With a PCP I don't have that issue. The first cold shot will always go exactly in the middle of my crosshairs, even at 3am when I 'm awakened by the invading 20-25lb critter, and I can barely focus my eyes, with artificial lighting that remotely resembles or is as strong as sun light. If you want to laugh, you can picture me at a window on a 20deg day in January, at 3am with my underwear on, sticking a 45" PCP out the window freezing my butt off The end result is always a dead night critter. I make it sound easy, because it is if you can control your breathing from the excitment and adrenaline of having a big fat 25lb critter in your sights, and freezing from the cold.
Barry:
I find the hassle of owning PCP's very little to none. I always try to schedule my trip to the Scuba shop (25min. away) on a Saturday when my wife wants to go shopping at the Mall that is 1/2mi. away down the road. I drop 1 or both of my tanks at the scuba shop and go shopping with my wife for a couple of hours and on the way back I stop to pick them up. If your nearest scuba shop is an hour away and there 's nothing around that area to do, then I would call that an inconvinience. PCP's are not for everybody. Not everyone has a source of air available readily or 6 days out of the week. Anyway if you wait, your tank is usually ready in 20min, 30min. max. if they are not too busy. It costs $5 to fill a 3k psi tank where I live. So $10 for both my tanks. That's less $ than a good tin of pellets (JSB's, Superdomes, etc.), or about 1 & 1/2 88gr CO2 cartridges. I normally re-fill them about every 3mos or 1,500-2,000 shots. I have other guns I shoot so they are not my only source of "fun". Much more economical than my 850 .22 which will use up at least ten (10) 88gr CO2 bottles for the same amount of shots, or $60-70 worth before tax or shipping.
I still like Springers a lot and like I have always said I will never get rid of them. The thing is this.. try shooting 100 shots with a Magnum Springer in one sitting (which is what I usually do) at your targets, and then shoot 100 pellets with a PCP (2 fills). When you are done with the PCP and cocking the little bolt, you feel no more tired than you did when you started (not to mention PCP's w/10-shot magazines or semi-auto FX guns). Finish shooting a Mag. Springer and tell me your arm isn't sore or your shoulder, fingers, etc. Then go collect your targets and tell me which ones put a bigger grin on your face. I 'm not putting Springers down. I love them to death.. but there are a lot of pluses to owning a PCP too - the 2 most important for me are the combination of superb accuracy and power because I use them mainly for hunting. If all you do is shoot paper, I do not recommend buying a PCP.
----
Diana 350 .22 aka "Old Tim" (J.W. tuned)
Diana 36 .177 CDT tuned
Lemak custom AF Condor .25
Talon Tunes AF Condor .25
Airhog tuned AF Condor .22
RWS Hammerli 850 .22
Crosman 2300XT Custom .22
Other Crosman Pump & CO2 .177
Harry, I live in a rural area about 45 mins from the coast where I guess the nearest scuba shop would be, so for me it would have to be a special trip, but for you I can see it would not be hassel and for those who really want a PCP it would be worth it. Thanks for the info.
Barry.
Harry, your post is what is needed to be published by the Vendors. There is so much confusion with PCP's.So many choices etc. You have a nice set up. I have alway's maintained that a springer is a 10 -30 yard gun. Sure you can shoot further with a magnum, but come on, it really will never get the accuracy of a PCP at long ranges. Plus the heavy cocking is a burden, and makes very hard for a second shot. Suppose you were a professional "Sniper" and you needed a very powerful long range gun, which would you choose a Magnum Springer or a PCP? For 20 yards or so I love my R7, 34, and HW 30. They are tuned to precise shooting instruments. But for long shots, I would choose a PCP any day. I have alway been a believer of great accuracy over POWER as you well know. However the PCP offers both! I actually like the fact that the shot would be smooth as silk. The ability to zero in on a target at long range gets me excited. I do not get a kick (no pun intended) on heavy recoil from a magnum gun.
Here is what I want and most likely will get. I want a talon SS.
1) I love carbines, easy to carry, very stealthy.
2) I want to be able to walk to the woods and carry a gun without the neighbors going crazy.
3) I want to able to set up a blind at the edge of the woods and have the ability to shoot at a very long range. Fox, crows, etc. Where I live, this would be easy as both are very plentiful game. Even Starlings at a long distance would be ideal.
4) I love the idea of a sweet smooth accurate shooter.I really go into another world when I shoot. On each shot my mind goes into a almost trance like state to focus on the shot.The PCP offers the best solution for this. I really do not care about the wood stock, the recoil and all that other stuff when it comes to SERIOUS SHOOTING!
5) It really appears that if you are going to invest in a PCP, you need the large tanks like you have.I will have to do some homework on where to fill etc. Damn, I can't even figure what valves and regulators and adaptors I would need.
6) Cost of the equipment is not cheap. I may have to sell off a few other guns to finance. It appears that I would need at least a grand to get started.
7) At 25 yards, forGET the PCP, I will stick to my nice springers. To me a PCP is a long range powerful tool. A VERY PRECISE SHOOTING INSTRUMENT!
8) I can see how guy's are attracted to them.I am as well.
9) I can see how guy's like me love their springers especiall for everyday shooting and to satisfy the daily "fix" that most airgunners have.
I SUGGEST YOU SEND YOUR COMMENTS TO TOM GAYLORD AS A GUEST WRITER ON HIS BLOG. You are the best person to comment on the PCP. After all, you know your 350 SPRINGER, like the back of your hand and you love the gun. Who better to talk about the advantages of the PCP. You were always a great shot with the springer and a very worthy hunter with both systems.
a springer is a 10 -30 yard gun. / the way I see it
August 16 2009, 5:11 AM
I agree with you Dave. Where we differ is what to do after that comfort zone. I have an R7, HW50s, R9, R1, HW97 and then the magnum 350. I am pretty well covered out to about 50 yards with comfort. After that I don't see a need for PCP. A .22 and .17hmr fills the bill with less money and less trouble. When I want to step out to 200-500 yards I grab my trusty .308.
Dave, I believe you have the power to resist the dark side. If you get a Talon SS, you can increase the power by 30% by using an 18" barrel and a Frame Extender (simple noise suppressor). The gun gets only 3" longer, but the reach-out power goes way up.....
Yes, there is a place in an airgunner's airsenal for both, and yes I have, and enjoy, both: "sproingers" and PCP's; but to limit the spring gun to 30 yards is a disservice to airgunning, IMHO.
Good, powerful springers (54 and 460 type) are good out to 60 yards. If you are not connecting at 45-50, then you need to practice some more.
PCP's are good out to 100 yards in the proper caliber and energy level.
If you really want to see what a 12" Talon SS can do, go to my post in the Yellow about the .22" Monsters by JSB:
Let's face it: most prey we hunt with airguns do have kill-zones at or slightly larger than 1" in diameter. 1/2" groups from the bench are nice, but even more comforting and re-assuring are 7/8" groups from real, practical field positions. A well-tuned Talon is an awesome gun. And so are a good 460 or a good 54.
there are NOT two kind of people in this argument (spring and PCP people) but 3 of them
the 3'rd is the one that has both kinds of air rifles both the spring and PCP air rifles and knows how to use them
you know I have been doing my homework in the PCP world getting advice from them, you included and am considering the purchase of a PCP not because I have not shot them but for the fact that shoting someone's PCP is not the same as having one
the ones I have shot are already prepared and all I do is show up and pull the trigger 10-20 times, I want to find out what really happens when you owe a PCP air rifle and you have to fill the tank them install the yoke to the air rifle and fill it up (the whole process) before you start shooting it
I have spent up to $300.00 on an upgrade to a $200.00 RWS 34 then why not spend $600.00 on a low entry PCP, thinking about a Disco here with the tank and yoke fill adaptor that should do it
now to be fair; about the process and time involved let's say we meet at a certain place to shoot, you with a PCP and I with a spring air rifle
my spring air rifle does not come cocked so your PCP either, by the time you assemble everything and fill up, disassemble and start shooting I will have shoot my spring air rifle 10 times but after that the picture changes
at 40 yards that PCP will be putting 1 pellet stacked on top of the other and I will be lucky to have 1" CTC
"If you want to laugh, you can picture me at a window on a 20deg day in January, at 3am with my underwear on, sticking a 45" PCP out the window freezing my butt off"
Harry; I made a mental picture of that scenario and did have a BIG laugh
take care
warren
and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"
Nah, I wear something a little smaller than that Dave, hehe. That could be me if I had to go up the stairs but I shoot them from the same floor (2nd) where my bedroom is So I get the Condor and what happens next? See pic below. Monster coons living in the woods behind my house! hehe
You are correct Dave. Most people feel comfortable up to 30-35yds with a Springer, although I 'm sure with a lot of practice and good tuning, they can be accurate beyond that. Powder burners as someone mentioned are out of the question. Most town/county and state laws dictate you have to be 500ft away from a dwelling to shoot a powder burner, which is why we use airguns to dispatch pests and game. My Diana 36 .177 is actually slightly more accurate than the tuned 350 .22 but at 14fpe I don't trust its power on larger small-game beyond 25yds. I did take 12-13 Groundhogs last year with the 36 between 19 and 26yds. Over half of them were way more than 10lbs. Biggest was 15.5lbs at 23yds. First kill with the 350 this year was an 11lb grounhog in late April at 33-34 yards. Right through the head so as we know they are very capable especially if they are tuned. I will use the 350 to 40yds on squirrels, 45yds on crows and up to 35yds for G-hog, raccoon and possum. Anything over those ranges I reach for a Condor .22 or .25 to ensure a quick kill with good shot placement. I got a couple of crows at 50 & 51yds with the .22 Condor last winter, and like you said, it's great reaching out and touching them with these precise instruments. Very satisfying, and not having them walk away injured. It's just something about cocking a 350 in 15-20deg. weather and shooting it. The seal and everything internal is cold and I can imagine the friction. When I was talking to Macarri a couple of years ago he told me not to shoot Springers if it's below 35deg. out even with his lubes inside. Plus I can stick the Condor out the window when it's snowing which is how I got a couple of crows one time during a regular snow storm this past winter. AF guns have alumimum frames so it was no bid deal as long as you wipe down the little steel screws carefully. It was a lot of fun shooting crows while it was snowing out. I 've never done that before but the Kodiaks stayed on course unaffected by the big heavy snow flakes. The crows didn't know what hit them. Gotta love a good shroud. Here are a couple of big coons from last winter that made the 45.5" long .22 Condor look like a carbine A couple of guys on other forums, that probably had not seen coon before, thought they were coyotes! hehe.
Dave, I feel comfortable shooting "fur" at distances I know I can get 0.5" groups, especially the big 4 (Fox - which I have yet to get, possum, coon & G-hog). I have studied their skulls and I just want to put the pellet within that a 1/2" spot I know works well. +/- 0.5" means the pellet can go 1/2" either way from the center of your crosshairs because you only get 1 shot when hunting. That makes it a 1" total kill zone. This is why I will not try it with a Springer that I know gets me 0.75-1" CTC groups (at 40-45yds). That for me is a 1.5" to 2" kill zone and it's unacceptable. That's the way I calculate it, and use that criteria when selecting a rifle for a specific critter at a specific distance. Now sometimes I may get a 0.5" CTC group at 40yds with my Springers from a bench rest, but I go by what I get the most, what the norm is for me. I 've had people tell me they can get 0.58" groups with their 54 at 50yds. Yes, but can you do that consistently with every 5-shot group? If not, then I would not use that for the basis of my hunting criteria, selection of gun, distance, etc. if 1 out of 10 groups is 0.58" and the rest are 0.75-1.2"
Anyway for Crow I extend my hunting to distances I can get 0.75-1" with Springers because you have a wider area to shoot - their chest. My Condors get mostly 0.5" groups at 50yds so I tend to reach for them for critters 40yds out and beyond. Even Grackles and Starlings, which are a lot of fun to snipe. I have taken Starling, Grackle and crow at 40yds and farther with my 2 Springers several times, but I can't say I have not missed a Starling or 2 at >40yds (they won't stay still dang it, hehe). With the Condor shooting a Starling or Grackle at 45yds is not a big deal as long as you squeeze the trigger at the right time when they 're on the Ground walking around. I have even shot a few on the move, and it was very satisfying. When they are stationary on a tree I 've made 55yd head shots on Grackles with the .22 Condor, just leaning on the window sill and not taking my time.
I am not selling anything Dave. I don't care if anyone buys a PCP that reads this.. I have nothing to gain or lose. It's just a fact that PCP's are easier to shoot and more accurate. If you go on the TAG forum you will see a post (and pics) every few weeks of someone taking rabbit and squirrel at 120 & 130yds with their Condor. I think 134 or 144yds is the record so far. I am nowhere near that good a shot!! and I am not mentioning the more reqular posts of 80 to 100yd kills. So you see when it comes to PCP's, I 'm a pretty average shot. Well who knows, if I had a 100yd range to shoot in my back yard I 'd be practing a lot at that distance, but I only have about 60yds so I do what I can with what I have.
Now I am going to Home Depot to buy some new (irregular) 2x8" boards because my Condors have blasted through and destroyed all the pressure-treated ones I was using in my back yard Oh yes, it's a hassle owning 3 high-powered PCP's, hehe. Who wants to go to Home Depot to buy stuff? What a drag hey?
PS.
Sorry for the long posts. I type fast.
Dave: I 'd like to see you get a Fox buddy. Seriously. I have not been able to. The one that comes around is very elusive and has bionic hearing. It hears me breathing from 40yds out and takes off before even touching the bait!
----
Diana 350 .22 aka "Old Tim" (J.W. tuned)
Diana 36 .177 CDT tuned
Lemak custom AF Condor .25
Talon Tunes AF Condor .25
Airhog tuned AF Condor .22
RWS Hammerli 850 .22
Crosman 2300XT Custom .22
Other Crosman Pump & CO2 .177
Well, I made the plunge and bought a .22 cal Marauder. After just one day of firing it, she was grouping approx 1 inch at 10 meters. Heck no, this is unacceptable. I called Crossman and sent it back today. Wow, one day of shooting and I wont see one again for another 3 weeks. But that's ok, I still have my 460 which still fires true.
Jeez Martin, I hate to hear something like that. I wonder what was causing those shots to be so far off. I hope they exchange it for a new gun.Three weeks is Unacceptable to me. I would have asked them to overnight a new one down as soon as they received the old one.In fact I would try and give them a call. I know they are working hard to handle customer complaints fast. The gun is so popular, that It sounds like they are producing them very fast without inspection. I see on the Yellow, that their have been many issues. I might even think of canceling the whole order and just order a new gun from somewhere else. I wish you luck my friend. You seem to be taking it like a sport.
I tried that Home Depot scrap lumber for a target holder (even went to pressure treated as the 2x6's were a buck or so. I found that they got tore up faster (I used a bunch of thm edgewise) than my plywood backstops with a couple of thickness's. It was kinda like an axe taking chunks out vs pounding really short nails in for the plywood. Either way, you can't beat that cheap lumber (well maybe with a Pell-WOW.....)
Back now and I see that this thread is following the example of the snake that swallowed its tail. Reminds me of the old .270 VS .30-06 debate. As in those two rifle calibers, both types of air guns are good. Just choose whichever pleases YOU, since you are going to be the one shelling out the coin and shooting it. Automatic transmission or manual? Blondes or brunettes? Main arbiter is "fun or not fun" and you decide, not someone else. Shoot more, be happy!
That's why there's always a shortage of .30-06 rifles these days. Used to have two Springfields, one set up for iron sighted match shooting and the other a WWII Remington Rand which had been customized completely in the 1960's (an actual "widow's gun"). Sadly, had to sell both. They shot as well as any Remington or Winchester sporter, if not better. Anyway, let's not get into that old tar baby!
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Best regards from Johannis.
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