For you experts, why should the spring ever break in a springer gun??

The only reason I can think of is a manufacturing defect. Springs last forever in other applications, why do they have to be replaced in a springer?
A few thousand to 15K shots is normal?? Think about a rocker arm spring on an engine at 70mph for many hours. They dont fail. And BTW why doesn't every 22 cal spring break if HEAVY pellet (10.5 vs 8.6)break .177 springs according to
some net information I've seen

So with a good synthetic seal and a forever spring, I am self contained??

Or do we need a piston ring like the FWB 300 to last forever??

Tuned Diana 54 be my baby now.

Still looking for a forever design.

Philip:

it is called "the probability of failure"

why does the US Navy use airplanes with 2 jet engines but the US Air Force just 1 ???

redundancy for the Navy, 2 of them since they fly over thousands of miles over the ocean while the Air Force flies thousands over land you cannot land over water the same as over hard soil

2 of each gives you a "BACK-UP" in case one fails

and then the failure rate probability, eventually any man made equipment will FAIL and a spring is not exempt from this equation

remember "the chain is as strong as the weakest link" and the spring is as stong as the weakest coil after all they are both made of metal

and another thing; your tuned Diana 54 will eventually fail after X amounts of shots by some way or another it will eventually fail

warren

I'm gonna go with the manufacturing defect and/or severe shock on the break aspect. ALL springs weaken, some slower than others. When an air gun spring gets sufficient weakening on it to declare it as too weak, then it might be deemed as failed and need replacing. I have not had any break....yet. I have had a number weakened/distorted that required replacement.

Re the heavy pellet thing, the resistance presented to the piston on a .177 vs a .22 is inversely proportional to the square of the radius of the barrel, so it takes a less heavy .177 to offer more resistance (to the spring) than a .22.

Philip the V-mach F1 spring was supposed to have been developed along with formula 1 engines and I have never heard of one breaking, maybe someone has, but that might be your best bet.

primarily, at least in newer guns, its not due to a defect, but rather poor quality manufacturing. Lots of older guns from the 50s ans 60s are still going strong with original springs. New springs are made out of cheap material that just doesn't hold up as well, and the manufacturing process is not as refined either.

Another reason spring fail in newer guns is the basic design of the gun. Speed sells, and just about every gun out there is designed to run at the maximum limits of the spring. Thats a recipe for quick failure of a cheap spring. older guns generally were not designed for maximum power at any cost, so the springs weren't pushed to 100%of capacity. Even the FWB 124/127, powerful as it was for its day, ran the spring at something like 60% of capacity.

Thanks for the info. I believe overstressed, and cheaper manufacturing is most probable

Haven't gotten to the spring section in the book yet but....one of the ways springs break is from being over stressed. The springs in modern air rifles are almost coil bound when cocked, the older model rifles weren't nearly as bound as the new ones. The springs in a car engine aren't anywhere near bound at their most compressed state so that helps them live for a long time. High speed vibration when the spring in a rifle is released causes fatigue and then breakage. Also low order detonation will cause fatigue..the spring in modern air rifles is as close to it's stress limit as they can be and still last for X number of shots as the factory has tested them. Aftermarket springs are usually less stressed and of better material so tend to last longer.

mailto:flyingdragonairrifles@hotmail.comhttp://www.airgunartisans.com/flyingdragon/

EYES

Mike:

there is NO WAY that older springs are better then the new ones being made now and aftermarket ones will outlast the old ones by a %25 margin

aren't the old ones' being replaced NOW??? and do they not get give you a more solid power!!! with old air rifles then your statement is true

but IF not true JM spring's are not worth anything

I am not a betting man but on this one I will bet the house


warren

and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"

Guns sold with Massive power.

"Forget massive power as that equates solely into massive problems. Accept a nice 11-12 ft lbs and you could have a real nice gun"!

By: Words from the Master

Funny, but every time MZ tunes one of my guns, he hands it back to me and say's the same thing. "Here ya go, now you have a gun that will last a life time". Well, I believe him.

Regards
Dave@vabch

Fatigue is prompted by stress, and it tends to be more lethal in lower quality materials than in higher quality materials. Stress is also directly proportional to the slenderness ratio.

Modern cars, using desmodromic valving do not use springs as compression/return springs, just as locating devices.

Most other applications do not stress the springs as much as spring airguns. Usually, other applications use less slender springs and even die-processing springs that are short and fat, are less stressed and are of very high quality, also break. So modern die-return springs are ALSO going to GasRam technologies. There is an Italian Company that is now taking the market by storm in the die-making industry making these replacements.

Current, modern materials, such as silicon spring steel, or Chrome/Vanadium/Silicon/Niobium alloys are incredibly more fatigue resistant than the old materials, with the possible exceptions of composite materials, such as India's "blue steel" or "Damascus Steel" springs; which are so prohibitively expensive that it is unthinkable to use them nowadays.

OUR problem with Diana architecture is that the possible GasRam to be used needs to be HOLLOW, as opposed to lesser constructions where the trigger engages in a shoe or in the skirt of the piston itself. While Diana's architecture promotes concentricity, it does make the intended gas ram VERY complicated to manufacture, as experienced by VORTEK in the past.

Diana COULD make a change to a stemless piston, and allow the use of GasRams, but to be quite frank, my experiments point to the fact that it takes MORE energy to cock a GasRammed gun than it takes to cock a well-built metal spring one for the same energy output.

HTH



Un Abrazo!




Héctor

A lot depends on the metal cocktail that went into the wire before the spring was wound.Like Hector said, some exotic metals can be used and the price rockets.

Modern springs (if well made) are miles ahead of the older versions.
Incidentally, the stock spring in my Diana 54 lasted over 10 years and then broke off at the last three coils inside the piston.
Nothing lasts forever and I probably failed to notice a worn piston seal that caused it in the first place.
Still...
Not bad going after probably 20,000 shots at over 20 ftlbs of energy.
Its got a JM one installed now and that is just perfect for it, not too wild and VERY civilized.
If you want springs that last while they perform well, they should not be on steroids and at 100% capacity!!
If you need more oomph and expect the spring to last forever, do not use a springer, get a rimfire.
david

some decent springs in the UK Webleys - rare to read a post on any AG forum about
one of them breaking. Common to read about HW, Diana, AA, etc. springs breaking.

Owner misuse, abuse, ignorance breaks a lot of springs - sometimes after a few
shots. A new gun is smoking, dieselling bad and the owner wants to see how fast
a super light pellet will go or the owner squirts some oil into the t-port hole
or the owner shoots light or any weight loose fitting pellets or extra tight
heavy pellets or isn't aware of a damaged, missing or needing shimmed breech
seal and so on...

A lot of guys get a new gun they're ripping the box open and soon running out the
door with their pants falling down slipping and tripping with gun in one hand and
pellets in the other. No inspecting, checking/tightening screws, cleaning, reading
instructions, etc. occurs.

Springers really are adult airguns - not for kids and monkeys.

More than a few springers are defective, problem guns right from the box new so
even a "airgun saint", a "airgun savant" may experience a spring break within a
few shots.

Herb

Thanks for all the comments. Very enlightening.