Re: is the rws diana 460 as accurate as the hw77/97?
August 21 2009, 1:29 AM
Depends what power you want.if you want over 16 ft/lbs the 460 is more accurate, under this power it depends on the tune, most might say TX/HW, although I cant see much difference between my low powered 460 and MY TX/HW.
Dave also likes his detuned 460.
I say my TX is 16+ fpe and is more accurate than my detuned 460 (although not as powerful). 460's are accurate and have a lot of variablility in power capability. Had the mark been 17fpe, then my TX in .177 doesn't go there....
JC that sounds like you have a nice .177 TX there although I have of them going to 20 ft/lbs in .22, if that is true I doubt that they would be as accurate as a 460 at that power.
My TX in .22 isn't broken in yet, but it is just below 17fpe. I have no way of comparing it's accuracy to a 460 .22, but it does shoot as good as the TX .177. My 460 .177 is doing something like 950 fps, so it zings right along the same scope poi for good distances. It throws the occasional flier. I have to believe it is me that is doing that, but I am talking shooter/gun combo and I'm better with the TX200.
I would agree that you are right shooter/gun combination below magnum power is right, but the 460 has the advantage at high power if that what you want, it all depends what adcdam wants, the 460, TX, HW, accuresy can be debated but only up to high power then the 460 as a underleaver is on is own.
Re stocks - My walnut TX stocks beat the 460 stock hands down for quality. For sleakness, there is a certain look about the 460 that would make me think that is where Warren is coming from on the stock rating.
fps - Warren; what pellet are you shooting, .22 Kodiaks? My TX .22 shoots CP's at 725 fps; I thought the TX was slightly more powerful than the 97???
im between the diana 460 magnum and a hw77 .20 cal. my intention is to send the gun to Steve Pope for a v-glide tuning. the tuned hw77 in .20 cal can reach a bit more than 16 fpe with 13.5 grain jsb exact pellets and it retain 10.8 fpe at 50 yards wich in my opinion is very good energy for hunting. on the other hand the diana 460 is a 22fpe and can retain 14.6 fpe with jsb exact pellets at 50 yards. i want to use a bushnell elite 6-24x40 or a hawke sidewinder 6-24x56 and i dont want the gun to break it, i know the hw77 will not break the scope but im not so shure about the diana 460. the diana 460 doesn t have a trigger like the rekord but if i buy the diana 470 it will have the t06 trigger that is better than the t05 trigger. i like fixed barrel springers and accuracy i want a do it all gun, hunting,pest control and a little fiel target, i really don t know what to do, please help me.
i don t consider the diana 54 because it s very heavy and a scope eater.
Adcdam, Steve must of lost count of the HWs he has done and they are the best, But WOW what kind of a job would he make on a 460, as far as I know he has not done one yet, so you may have a unique gun for a while.
If you go for the Steve Pope 460 please post the result I think it would breathtaking.
Barry.
You won't be breaking any scopes on any rifles V Mach have worked on !
The Diana will be more pokey, but you may not require the full V Glide, which is tricky anyway on Diana's.
I have both ('full power') an HW glide and a Diana non glide but highly tuned, and both are excellent to shoot.
Anyone who hasn't shot fac / US power springers worked on by V Mach are in for a big treat.
If I bought an underlever at either < > 12ftlb it would be the 460, I had a 77 a while ago, but prefer my 52 sidelever even at UK limit, a minority viewpoint but I say it how I find it -
After a few years of shooting the 54 and reading alot, it seems to me that
springers dont have to be more than 12 ftlbs. What are the shooting characteristics of your 52??
the TX stock is a 650 FPS in .22 cal be that 14.1, 14.3, 14.4 pellet and the 97 is not more a whole lot more powerfull than the TX (stock)
but the 460 is by a wide margin faster than the TX or the 97 in FPS out of the box the 460 makes the TX and 97 eat DUST never said accuracy that is were the TX "shines" not is speed
warren
and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"
the post above was mine i forgot to put my name, i have a vglide .22 hw97 wich is doing 17 fpe, i was thinking in a .20 hw77 because of the very good BC of this caliber. Barry you are right a v-glide 460 would be a very good gun, if i go that way i will post here the results.
In the UK the TX is the cheapest and the 460 the most expensive.
Acdcdam says he would like a V-Glide tune, I think that would be really be something on a 460, could be a first.
I am not sure what you would get on a 460 but I suppose you would get a buttoned piston for a start?
barry the v-glide use a custom piston with two o rings a custom compresion chamber with buttons , custom spring, guides, top hat, piston liner, and two or three washers.
Accuracy---Be Aware of the RWS 460's Achilles Heels
September 2 2009, 9:57 PM
The rifle won't be accurate for very-long if you don't resolve a lingering breech seal problem (it melts after a few hundred shots) AND a breech closure problem (it often leaks). Those two things are true, even if you downgrade the power by a significant amount.
I would be the wrong one with whom to argue with about those items. I fixed the problems just mentioned so the repairs would last, and I know what it took to do it. I'm not posting what it took to do it right---you wouldn't either if you had over 100 hours in the R+D plus the first repair. I wasn't paid anything close to what it took to get it all done. I've shared lots of info but I sure can't afford to give this one away for free. One tuner advertised that he will tune the 460 as long as he doesn't have to fix the breech seal problem--ah, but there's the rub.
Fortunately, the 460 I repaired-then-tuned had a top-shelf Diana barrel--it was extremely-accurate with several brands of pellets from the very-beginning once the other work was done. It shoots at full power: 820-840 fps with various 14.3 gr. pellets.
I love the 460 at full power. But, to truly compare its accuracy against the other two rifles that were mentioned, you'd need to soft-tune it for less than full power. That's because the other two rifles won't easily-do 22+ FPE in .22 caliber, so an apples-to-apples comparison isn't possible unless the 460's power is brought down to a level that's similar to theirs.
The 460 at OEM power is a great hunter, pure and simple--if a very-accurate one. But, it's got more power per lb than many of the others, and that affects accuracy to a degree. Bring it down to the power level of the other two, then do the accuracy comparison tests with something like FT in mind. I like the other two rifles a lot. But, I have reason to believe the 460 would hold its own.
Diana gets an unfairly-bad rap in the potential accuracy department because it has a plastic trigger (for now) and a little-less stately bluing job--what's all that got to do with accuracy?? A guy with a good Diana has out-scored other target shooters with 'better rifles' more than once, and it will happen again.
Ed I to have spent time on the 460 seal and have come to the conclusion that it is simply just the breach lock up spring that is the problem and just needs a stronger quality replacement, but can still be improved further by fitting a heavy duty seal that I have access to and then this should last the lifetime of the gun.
If I have missed something I would willingly pay you for the the info.
Barry.
Ed k writes:I love the 460 at full power. But, to truly compare its accuracy against the other two rifles that were mentioned, you'd need to soft-tune it for less than full power. That's because the other two rifles won't easily-do 22+ FPE in .22 caliber, so an apples-to-apples comparison isn't possible unless the 460's power is brought down to a level that's similar to theirs:
Here is my opinion on the 460. First of all you cannot help but appreciate beautiful stock. I really believe Diana brought this gun out to compete with the TX. However, in their quest to satisfy the "magnititis Crowd" they decided to use a spring that meet this for their advertising needs. The gun came out with the slogan "Diana's most powerful gun"! The rifle sure is powerful, but this was a big mistake. The gun is a fine shooter, with a very short firing cycle. But the gun would not complete with the TX because it was much too powerful. I have had mine soft tuned or de-tuned and it became much more accurate and while I have never even shot at a FT match or fired a TX, I would bet that it would be a worthy competitor. I think Diana did a big injustice to this fine rifle and hurt sales in the long run by not placing a FT target rated spring rather than the "POWER SPRING" AND THEN ADVERTISING IT AS SUCH!
Dave I agree with most of what you say, hear in the UK the 460 is seen as teeth rattling monster, not a rival to the TX/HW.
Most people who own a 460 know once set up right it would be hard to beat at any power 11-23 ft/lbs.
Barry.
you have found the mystery problem of the breech seal in the 460 and for FREE
the breech seal just does not MELT because it is an inferior product compared to the ones in the 48/52 models
with out a proper seal the hot air will slowly burn it, interesting that no one has found out how hot that air is when it comes out of the muzzle
why then in other air rifles does the breech seal last 2,000 shoot's, same material but the 460 gets punished for a flaw
the breech seal in nothing more than a DONUT, round with a hole inside protected on the outer perimeter by metal but exposed in the center SOO the air can flow through it but if the seal is not 100% then you have problems
warren
PS: I give my secrets for free in this forum
and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"
As Far as Melting, The Seal Material Is the Problem--Honest
September 3 2009, 12:48 PM
The choice of breech seal materials make a difference, as do piston seal materials. If you think the material doesn't matter, I'd ask you----how many have you fixed? And, are they still fixed after 1,000 rounds---or, even after 250 rounds?
When you've accomplished that, get back to us and you'll have earned the respect of the most-ardent doubters. You'll also have discovered a permament solution, and I think it's great if you post it here for free.
I just said I can't do it. I have at least $500 plus in figuring it all out, and it's how I pay the grocery bill. I know I'm a weak man, but I've grown soooo accustomed to eating.
Barry, if you're overseas and need more info, we can probably work something out! Or, I am considering offering a 'non-tune fix' for the rifle that would require that someone send me only the compression chamber and the cocking lever from their rifle--nothing else. In either case, I'd like to help and am not trying to rape and plunder because I know something. The thing is, I hate to see a guy with an air rifle that he can't use--of course, that's what got me into all that time-consuming trouble (!!!) while I figured out how to correct the 460's 'hiccups'.
In either full- or reduced-power dress, I think the 460 is one great rifle.
amazing your statement "I'd ask you----how many have you fixed? And, are they still fixed after 1,000 rounds---or, even after 250 rounds?"
since I have fized 0 and had 1 of them without a problem the answer is still ZERO for you
are you saying I have to keep on buying until I get a lemon? and then send it to you because you have repaired (I forgot the #'s of 460's you have repaired) but you did not fix MINE because my 460 had no problems to begin with
I sent it to John in PA and he gave me a "clean bill of health" on my 460, shooting 850 FPS with 14.3 crosman CP's and accurate and just charged me shipping back to me after inspecting it completely
tuners' find gremlins in air rifles, blood sucking vampires in the pellets' and bent barrels in the LW's ones, they also find ghosts in the reckord and TO triggers, and the stock springs are BS since they can make them better, etc. etc. etc.
WE come to this forum to give free advice to others, when someone comes to sell something it better be an air rifle and not advice, there is a difference
warren
PS: if you have a different wiew just E-Mail me and we will take it out of the forum
and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"
this is a question that cannot be answered definatively by anyone on this forum. why? because anything anyone can say is purely anecdotal. the only way you could accurately answer this quesion is to test a large number of both rifles. perhaps 50 or 100. that would establish averages and standard deviations with some reliability. now, lets say that joe owns both guns and the 460 is more accurate. perhaps this is a case of a very good 460 and a 77
or 97 that has issues. its anecdotal and means nothing. not very many guys on this forum own both. some maybe. but not enough for a meaningful sample. you also have to factor in the shooter. if someone posts a 1" group at 40 yds with his 97 and another guy posts a 2" group at 40 yards with his 460 it is still
anecdotal evidence. meaningless because the variable of the shooters skill levels cannot be factored in.
these kinds of questions generate a lot of activity and sometimes very emotional responses but they are a dead end and in the final analysis prove nothing.
Larry, I really do not think anyone cares about the final word. I really do not care which gun is "more accurate". I think we were talking in general terms. All I was making a point was about the fact that the 460 could be a competitor in FT shooting if soft tuned. The fact that I do not shoot at field matches sure makes me ignorant at which guns are the best in that category. But as a good field gun, the 460 sure seems like a nice gun. It has not been around as long as the legendary straight shooting TX and will have to probably go through some adjustments before it reaches that level. Maybe the 470th is getting closer as we speak. Time will tell.
actually Dave, i was responding to the original question and
September 3 2009, 3:07 PM
not to anything you had said. i didn't even read all the posts. my FINAL WORD was toungue in cheek and not meant to shut anyone off. it always generates a lot of discussion when these kinds of questions are asked but definative answers are seldome if ever forthcoming.
No offense taken Larry. Here again is where I think Diana is missing the boat, they now have the 470th and it really appears to be at first glance a nice field target gun. Nice new trigger, adjustable butt pad etc, but here they go again by putting this power spring in the gun. They advertise it as a Field target/hunter. Sort of like the old haircut the "Mullet" you know, business in the front, party in the back.Looks like a field target gun, but has the power of magnum, but as a hunter weighing in at 9.4 lbs, you sure won't be doing much walking,just doesn't make much sense.
we all know intuitively that the 460 as it is currently
September 4 2009, 6:47 AM
constructed is probably not going to be as accurate as the 77/97. but knowing intuitively does not equal knowing scientifically. thats all i was pointing out in my post.
yea, it makes very little sense for diana to have created an ft rifle that can't shoot ft successfully. they seem to be stuck on the idea that they can't sell guns unless they are more powerful than anyone elses. it may be that they
can't intro a de-tuned version because that would be an admission that high power is not accurate.
im was discourage at first when i got my 460 but i sent it to umerex and the put a new spring and breech seal and lube the spring and it came back like a differt gun.on the advice of people on this forum i put a second spring over top the old breech spring and the gun shoots 1 inch groups at 50 yrds if i do my part.only put about 400 rds thru it and bougt my first pcp and been busy trying to get all its problems fixed. i would like to try a detune on the 460 because everone talks like that makes a big improvment all the way around.dont know whats involved to do it for sure but would like to try it..
![[linked image]](http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1251017277.JPG)
![[linked image]](http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1251057559.JPG)
