I am a new inexperienced airgun shooter with a model 34 Panther Pro Compact and an RWS 3-9x40 scope and mount. I am a bit frustrated with the large groups (4-5 inches at times) and I am trying to soak up as much info as possible about shooting springer airguns, pellet types etc. In trying to sight in the scope, I have managed to get both the elevation and windage adjustment controls near the end of their ranges (I think) and I want to return them both to the center of their ranges. How do I know when I get there?
well, you came to the right place. The guys on here are pretty sharp about springers. Stick around and read through some past posts, there is a ton of info there.
As for your problem, Im not sure I understand what you mean. your groups are 4-5 inchs at what range? what type of pellet are you useing ? what caliber? what is the rifle doing and what is the pellet doing?
Re your end of range adjustment. Two ways: The easy/rough adjustment way and the hard/precise adjustment way. I would say that if you are at the end of your travel for windage, you need a adjustable scope mount regardless of which way (you can do rough adjustment on elevation with shims).
Rough adjustment: Go one way all the way one direction on each knob (don't force it!), go back the other way and count the turns/clicks. Go half way back for each - not optically centered, but an approximation. After that, pick your sight in distance and adjust the scope mounts (not the knobs) until you are on target. \
If you are doing the course one, you are done. If not, you need to rotate the scope within its mounts to see if the center shifts as you do that. Adjust the knobs in small amounts to compensate until you can rotate the scope through 360 degrees of travel and still be on the same POI.
You can't do either of these until you get your groups collapsed, but If you are shooting a couple of hundred yards, that is not a bad group! PS I recommend initially going with the rough adjustment, I'm an engineer and live and die by the scientific process, but the precise method is too much for me....
Thanks JC. I suspected that counting the total clicks and dividing by two was the best way back to the center of the range but I was also suspicious that there was a better way that I was not seeing.
Before getting to Hold over's and Warren's requests for more info (my omissions testify to my ignorance), I am happy to say that my 20 Yd. groups have shrunk to 2.0 to 2.5ish inches and this improvement is due entirely to holding the gun properly (lightly and consistently). Yes, I was guilty of the death grip, thinking that firmer was better. Thanks to this forum for setting me straight on that issue.
Now to fill in some blanks that I left in my original post. Target distance is 20 Yds. I am shooting Crosman .177 pointed, premier hunting pellets because that is all our local gun store carries. I have ordered an RWS sampler pack hoping to find the optimum pellet for my gun. I have not tightened any screws (except the scope mount and ring screws)on the rifle but will do so tonight. I am shooting from a bench and I have adjusted the scope to eliminate parallax.
I have a couple of questions if you don't mind:
1. How many rounds are likely required for the RWS 34P to "break-in"?
2. When loading these Crosman pellets into the gun, I noticed that some fall in without any pressure and some require a light finger pressure to get them to seat in the barrel. Is this difference expected with most pellets or does this particular pellet have quality control issues? Maybe some are not round?
3. Can anyone comment about pellet weight Vs. accuracy and if there is indeed a correlation?
Anyway, I thank you all in advance for any help that you can offer. This is clearly a very knowlagable group and I look forward to beginning my airgun edumacation and possibly contributing some knowledge someday.
1. for the RWS 34P to "break-in"? many say 1,000 pellets for it to settle or you can tune it and avoid this exercise, I like to shoot them until they wear down and then do a home tune, most of the Diana's come bone dry and you can hear the "crunch" sound when you cock them, if that is the case a lube is in order
2. the pellet should fit "snug" in the breech if you have some that fall in the breech then that is not GOOD, discard those since they will DANCE all the way inside the barrel, the RWS pellet sampler will give you a good idea of what your M34P likes to "spit" pay close attention when you shoot them since you will find out what that air rifle LIKES in terms of pellets
3. I am holding what I think about "Can anyone comment about pellet weight Vs. accuracy and if there is indeed a correlation?" since it is a can of worms if I answer but what the HECK!!! here I go
the .177 cal shoots a flatter trajectory than the .22 and weight should not be a problem in that cal.
IN FACT: all the M34's use the same internals, piston, spring only the barrel is different (.177 vs. .22) SOOOO WHY should the pellet weight be a factor in the M34 in .177?
if the M34 in .22 shoots 14, 15 gr. pellets, WHO say's the M34 in .177 cannot shoot 7,8,9,10 gr. pellets??
I personaly LIKE the 10 gr. pellet in the .177 cal. M34 but that is ME, the heavy pellets in .177 BUCKLE the wind better at long distances than the light ones and the WHACK effect at the end of it's travel is more powerfull since it carries more KINETIC energy
THINK??? is velocity better that weight or the opposite, LOL, you will come to your own conclusions
warren
and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"
What kind of scope and mount are you useing? The Dianas can have a bit of scope shift and your mounts are very important on these rifles.
I use the BKL mounts(247 d) from straight shooters, great mounts but they are expensive, but Ive never had a problem with scope shift ever again.
Some guys here may be able to recomend a cheaper mount that works well too.
But Im not sure of which mounts.
Also when your resting your rifle make sure it rests on your hand and not on something hard .
I also like to rest my hand on the center of balence of the rifle and check for the cant of your rifle too make sure its not leaning to one side or the other sleightly when your shooting.Thats going to make a sleight differnce in your Point of Impact, the further away, the bigger the difference.
My 34 likes the CP's, the Meisterklugens, and the JSB exacts in .22
Okay, your droop comment now has me researching this term and I think I understand it. It sounds to me that the shimming the rear of the scope in the ring can solve that problem and/or the UTG mount that allegedly is enroute on a UPS truck somewhere will solve the problem too.
My wife just said "...all of this just to whack some squirrels?"
the mount rail is not alligned parallel with the barrel
the problem is not the mount rail but the barrel is bent on purpose when it is stamped in the barrel assembly
that means that while the scope is looking at 12 o'clock the stupid barrel points at 6 o'clock or in between and shoots at the bottom #
Diana's are famous for this, what BURNS" my peanuts is that the droop is not applied uniformly and with a constant droop
one of my M34's shot 2" low at 20 yards with a mechanical zero (JC knows what this means) and when I placed the mount and scope on another M34, I got 4" down (whiskey, tango, foxtrot) PARDON my French
warren
PS: oh well welcome to the Diana world
and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"
My scope is an RWS 3-9x40 and the mount is an RWS "Lock Down" type. There is no other info on the packaging e.g. model number etc. This mount requires drifting the recoil pins into the rather shallow depressions in the scope rail. So far, (75-100 rounds fired, the mount has not moved, that I can see.
I have ordered a UTG mount from Pyramid because from what I have read, I should anticipate scope movement issues with the stock mount. The UTG mount uses a pin which hangs down in front of the scope rail to prevent backward movement.
I will take a look at the mount that you suggested. I don't want to say that expense in absolutely a non-issue but I do want to end up with a gun that performs as well as the shooter allows.
BTW, my interest in air rifles began due to ground squirrels under-mining my house's foundation and tearing up my property. A friend loaned me his M48 for a couple of weeks and I was bit! As is my nature, I rarely start something unless I go 110% so I guess I am all in with both feet.
2) The RWS lock down mount has droop compensation and two lock down pins. It should be good to go.
3) RWS Scopes are not my favorite. I have a RWS Night pro (3-9x44 - are you sure you don't have that, it is their only current 3-9 scope). I would be wondering about that scope if you are at the end of travel for both windage and elevation with a lockdown mount. Got anybody else around to try your scope on their gun? Can you go back to open sights and see how the gun shoots by itself. I'm no sharpshooter, but can certainly beat 2 inch groups at 20 yards with open sights.
"ground squirrels under-mining my house's foundation"
October 28 2009, 11:27 AM
Well, then there's more to the airgun than whacing some squirrels! LOL!
Welcome to the forum and to the airgun world. You're gonna have a lot of fun!
You got good advice from everyone here, now you need to keep us updated and posted about all you progress, that is how the forum keeps getting better.
If you are really bothered by the difference between POI at optical scope center (not necessarily the mechanical center, as you have already discovered) and the mechanical center of the turrets, you can always "undroop" the barrel. There is a post some tima back by Tim Meredith ("Old Tim") that shows his jig for "undrooping barrels" or you can also send it to a good tuner that will take care of this problem for you.
If you prefer the adjustable scope mount route, it is also valid. But do keep in mind that USUALLY, a scope in a spring gun works best when slightly pre-loaded to look DOWN. That means that you get the adjustable mount centered on POI once the scope's elevation turret has been turned DOWN one full turn.
Get a small mirror that is bigger than your objective. The thicker the better.
Hold the mirror on the objective end of the scope. Best if gun and/or scope
is being held someway. If you now look into the scope you will see your
reticle lines AND the shadow of your reticle lines. Just crank the windage and
elevation turrets until they are both aligned and you will be scope centered.
A strong side light - bright sun is better.
When the reticle lines and their shadows are aligned, the reticle is centered in the scope tube.
A necessary first step to aligning scope to bore to avoid cross shooting.
You can do the click/turns method, but this is faster if you have a mirror.
I'm having trouble understanding "cross shooting". Could you explain please? Also, is it possible to twist a turret so far that it responds in reverse?
I centered the reticle using the mirror technique...very slick. It didn't squeeze the groups but it put me back on the paper because this M34PPC was consistently spraying to the right. After doing this, I then checked where each turret was with respect to the center of its range (each has about a 270 click range). With reticle scope centered, the elevation turret is about 70 clicks from the end and the windage turret is about 30 clicks from the end. If I were designing a scope, I would want the turrets near the center(135 clicks)when the reticle is centered.
Now a question: after centering the reticle, can one then center the turrets in their ranges without disturbing the reticle position? My scope is an RWS 3-9x40AO. This is not the one with the illuminated R/G reticle that seems to come with some of the RWS airguns.
Anyway perhaps I am being obsessive about this turret centering issue but I really want to understand this equipment.
If you have the reticle line and their shadows aligned the reticle
is centered in the scope regardless of the clicks in any direction.
At your preferred zero range make a big cross on a paper (+)
and shoot a large group from a rest,carefully. Figure the center of the
group, then you must shim the scope, adjust the mounts, or somehow
move the group to center or very, very near with a mechanical adjustment,
Without moving W/E screws. Use Tape,shims, adjustable scope base, etc.
Two reasons: 1- the scope will adjust more accurately with a greater range
of adjustment if you start near center of the adjustment range.
2. shoot a careful group at say 15 yards, then shoot another at 45 yards.
Under good conditions of course. If one group is to the left of the target,
and the other is to the right of the target, you are "cross shooting".
--scope not aligned with the bore.
You can see why this is a problem.
"Dead on at 20 yards may be off by an inch at 45 yards.
I thought there was a demo of this at www.arld1.com but I dont see one.
Maybe warren has a data site.
You can also start low on purpose if you want extra long range capability.
Awful wordy - I hope this helps.
PS: 1st start with this one regardless of you scope, mount, air rifle and progressively improve on the information this site gives you, not mindbogling but easy if you follow simple steps
and don't OVER READ LOL
and remember "it's 30% the gun and 70% the shooter"
