There is a 50/50 split on the use of chamber oil in modern guns. Hector, here, supports it, so I would say chamber oil is OK. My guess is you can order it from UmarexUSA for the RWS brand and PyramydAir for whatever it is they sell.
Many air gunners no longer support the use of spring oil. It's mostly silicone oil, anyway, which has little in the way of metal-to-metal lubricating qualities. The use of any petroleum based oils in either the compression tube (housing the spring) or through the transfer port (where the air comes out) is not advised since the fumes will cause dieseling. This will damage the gun in the long run (and even the short). If you are going to tear the gun down, then you should buy a set of lubes from Air Rifle Headquarters.
http://www.airrifleheadquarters.com/ This consists of heavy tar for the spring (helps reduce vibrations, too), moly for the piston and seal, and clear lube for the pivot points. Even if you don't tear the gun down (and you should search under tunes to see how to do it safely), you can pull the gun out of the stock and administer a "slot tune". Search on the Yellow forum for how to.
(Yeah, guys, I know that the slot tune is considered unsophisticated but it is far better than spring oil.)
If you don't want to get the heavy tar, you might search on substitutes for it. Air Rifle Headquarters is run by Jim Maccari (AKA "The Spring Man") and he has spent years concocting his superior lubes. But others have found alternatives, especially where his are not generally available.
Hope this helps. I'm sure others will chime in with more info.
With all due respect I am still confused, I realize a petrol base oil is bad and it possible to damage the seals with some oils, I am not a perfectionist and was just interested is something that will lube and not damage my gun since it appears dry from the factory, and hate to order on line and pay as much for shipping and handling as the oil cost since oil is all I need and know it wont qualify for free shipping at most dealers
So from what I interpret, you would like info on a local dealer that might carry it. I suggest you post what local is for you and maybe someone could help. Cabela's seems to carry the RWS Shooters Kit, but it's like $36, so you may want to reconsider mail order/a different approach like Maccari Tar.....
some considered spring oil of no use.No wonder people like Ron have so much to get confused about.I considrer chamber oil worthless,but not spring oil.What I do know for sure is the dry new springer will have heavy friction from piston rubbing as it`s cocked,and the stiffer the spring the higher the friction.I also know 6-10 drops of spring oil will prevent this.I`ve looked at too many guns,seen many ruined to rough cockers for the life of the guns,fron roughed up tubes&piston skirt tops.I`ve used JM`s moly,and his grease from Europe on rear of piston.I`ve found on RWS guns after a couple hundred shots,it all rubs off,and is pushed back as gun is cocked in a neat little grease ring,and gun will get dry again.Only solution,button piston,or a few drops SC oil now&again.Spring cylinder oil may not be the best lube in the world,but it`s the only oil that`s safe to use,and any lube is better than nothing.
You are right Dizz this forum is very controversial and confusing
March 26 2010, 11:44 AM
First it was the barrel droop thing I listened to all the evidence and made my best judgment, now its the oil thing and I will listen to all the evidence and make my best judgment. The one thing I do know is like Dizz said, new 34,s are dry or a least mine is. In my opinion even the wrong oil is better than no oil.
Dicks sporting goods in my area carries a Gamo spring gun maintenance kit.
or you could place an ad for a sample pack of JMs lubes. a spoon full of each lube is plenty for several guns. you could ad to your ad on Yellow trade for lubes etc.
Purchased a pellet rifle a couple of years ago and it had a small pamphlet in a plastic bag from Dynamit Nobel-RWS Inc. in the box. Apparently pre UmarexUSA or UmarexUSA had a bunch of them left over and put them in boxes containing guns. Anyway in the short maintenance section it talks about chamber oil. They say a drop every 2500 shots will suffice. The next sentence is what really threw me. It says, "This lubricant is a special non-dieseling formula that evaporates within 30 seconds, and leaves a thin film of clear moly." I never had any idea of why their chamber oil was different from other oils. I guess we learn something every day. Another recommendation from them is, "The wearing surfaces at the barrel hinge, and the cocking arm should be lubricated with RWS Moly paste or Dri-Slide as well as the trigger mechanism." Never have heard of RWS Moly paste either. I guess there's lots I have yet to learn.
Log on to Umarex site, or Pyramid Air, or others. Look for the RWS cleaning and lubricating kit. Buy it. Download the owners manual for your gun (if you dont already have one). Read it. Read the directions that come with the RWS Kit. Note that the two give slightly different instructions. Figure out which you want to go with - and stick with the program.
If you are willing to compromise your factory warranty, open her up and put in any of the highly recommended lubes discussed here. While i have not tried them, I trust the judgement and recommendations of those here who have. The will work, and they will prolly improve the performance of your rifle.
Its your choice. I followed ( and still do) the factory recommendations with no trouble. I might well be missing out on enhanced performance, but I'm still having fun1
You are right Dizz this forum is very controversial and confusing
March 26 2010, 6:16 PM
IMHO, Most forums that are worth anything are very controversial and confusing. There are a lot of opinions out there and not everyone is in agreement and not everyone gives good advice (or they may be giving good advice, but it is interpreted wrong). In any event, your best bet is to evaluate all the advice and do what suits you best.
My personal experience in the lube vs tar area is that all RWS spring guns come dry. Lube is better than no lube. I started out with an RWS Shooters kit as that was easiest for me (only had to take the stock off/not take the gun apart). Over time, I found the unmodified gun would shoot faster with RWS lube than with tar, but faster isn't necessarily better. I also found that chamber oil does indeed diesel if applied too heavily in any spring gun or if applied at all in a Magnum. I heard good things about JM tar and moly; read his info on his site, an started lubing with the installation of one of his spring kits. Much smoother shooting! Then I did a few other guns with just the tar and moly and they also were smoother, so I am sold on the tar and moly approach. You need to use it very sparingly; particularly the tar on the spring.
Ive used 30 wt motor oil on a dry spring and it worked great.
March 26 2010, 7:19 PM
That was a Gamo 220. A magnum springer and had no dieseling because its behind the seal. I just put it in the slot. Even left the stock on. Any kind of grease or oil in front of the seal will ignite. JMO.
Seems like most guys say that if you get a gun pro-tuned (and almost all use JM's tars) you probably won't have to lube it again, period. But, I agree. Read the forums and make your own decision. It's your gun. Just passed along what I've picked up from a couple of very lengthy pros/cons discussions, here and elsewhere. And I, personally, would not use motor oil on a spring. Take it out in the sun on a hot day and that 30W isn't going to be thick.
Anyway, chamber oil is mostly pure silicone oil because it has a very high flash point. Hardware stores, or hobby shops that carry R/C cars in which it is used for shocks, should stock it. The RWS stuff with moly is, primarily, the same thing. Just be sure it is pure. And don't mistake Crosman Pelgun Oil for the same thing. That IS 30W non-detergent with red dye added.
I don`t think the tar wears off,I`m talking about the ring of moly grease @ rear of piston.Only the rear 1/8 " of piston skirt rubs,and after a while it is rubbbed off,you also have gravity fighting against you.That`s why I said JM buttons are great.Oil on the spring will spatter with each shot&keep top of piston lubed.Just what I`ve found.Have a great day,Dizz
I have been using rock drill oil and grease in some of my airguns.
These oils and greases are designed to be injected with the compressed air into pneumatic drills and paving breakers.
These drills typically have 2.5" - 5" diameter, 20-50 lb pistons.
The drills have 2"-5" strokes and operate at 1000-3000 blows per minute.
The drills operate steel piston on steel cylinder.
They run multi million strokes between service intervals.
Piston slam is prevented by a trapped air cushion similar to spring guns.
Dieseling is rare.
I use PetroCananada Ardee 30 Oil and Ardee EP000 grease.
(Ardee = RD = Rock Drill)
The drawback is a strong, somewhat unpleasant, petroleum smell.
RedFeather (Login RedFeather) Owner Moderator 220.127.116.11
JM's kit was about $35, delivered
March 27 2010, 7:35 AM
That's the kit with the three generous jars of lube plus $10 minimum postage. If you can add some seals, etc, to the order, it makes it less expensive over all. I know other things work, but his are time tested and proven. If you factor in your time and gas money running around to find alternatives (assuming you don't have ready access to something like the lubes mentioned, above), it's a push.
pelgun oil is Monolec GFS SEA 30wt motor oil made by Lubrication Engineers Inc.It is a pariffin based ND 30wt. motor oil.you can use any ND 30wt motol oil,but the pariffin wax helps wickout moisture while shooting mainly on the CO2 guns, as I have noticed over the years the valve springs on guns that I used it in looked almost new but as for the ones that I did not use it in were rusted.You can also use pure mineral oil which is what ND motor oil is but I will stick with what works best.If you can get the monolec gfs 30wt motor oil it cost about $8 a quart which should last a lifetime.NEVER EVER USE TRANSMISION FLUID IT WILL DESTROY YOUR SEALS!!!!!!!!!!Take a look here if you want the info on pelgun oil.http://www.crosman.com/pdf/msds/MSDS-PELLGUNOIL.pdf
on the main spring ! It makes your eyes water so bad you can not see your target!But it does dilate your eyes and you can breath again real good!
I slept in a Holiday Inn Express Hotel last night ,,, I know!!
Reminds my of a funny story. When I was a kid, I use to work at a gas station. A fellow I worked with, was a young black guy that wore a big afro hair cut. We had a nearby factory that on certain days would bellow a lot of white smoke. This would fill into his hair which made for a very comical sight. Now on top of this, he had a bad case of hemorrhoids which would give him a very unique walk. Well, he finally went to the doctor and was told to just get some Preparation H and that would cure his woes.
A few days later, I noticed he was still doing that weird walk and I asked him if the medicine was working for him. He replied "Naw, for all the good they did me, I could have just stuck them up my As&!
I agree, but to a newbe like myself the info.is invaluable
March 28 2010, 11:39 AM
I am retired from a Japanese auto MFG.and they taught us a problem solving technique called P D C A this Means Plan, Do, check, action In other words Plan it,Do it, Check the results, and Take action what ever needs to be done if antthing. Hey it works.
Good idea Ron 'cause if you ever use the JM lubes properly applied you will be spoiled to all other lube 'ideas'.
Statement qualification: Been using JM lubes/kits since the '80s in dozens of RWS, HW, FWB and cheap Chinese springers. Previously used other greases, oils (chamber and spring) silicones, Moly suspensions and other potions.
on quality built new airguns after initial operational testing. Learned how to maintain my own instead of having to ship them across the country just for a seal or spring replacement. It's easier now than it used to be to learn how to do simple maintenance with all the info/guides that are on the www. Springers are really pretty simple mechanically and easy to work on.
Another point to consider. Do you want to suffer through mediocre performance and discharge buzz/twang with every shot just to maintain a 'warranty' which still requires shipping ($ both ways) the thing across the country and waiting, hoping they get it right the first time?
When I got my new panther it was pretty dry especially the spring and this is understandable since it may have been on the shelf for years, and it was a little noisy when cocking and shooting, but I am sure it would have taken a long time to do any damage. I bought the RWS shooters kit and used the spring oil and the cylinder oil as recommended and guess what no more buzz/twang.
I value your opinion and I am sure your are reccomending a great product but when us old guys make up our mind it is pretty much a done deal. LOL
If you were to shoot a properly lubed,tuned springer you would immediately notice what (rattle/ring) I was talking about. Never shot any new or old untuned springer sporter that did not buzz and twang upon discharge. Well maybe my old Pro Elite and maybe a TX/PS but these are $500+ airguns and still benefit from tuning/lubing.
on the "buzz" "twang" thing.The only reason you get it,is from a loose spring guide,that allows it to vibrate.Some Diana guns have a lot more than others.Sounds like you got a good tight one.The JM lubes will make it cock somewhat smoother,but if the guide is really loose(and yours seems not to be),it would take a JM kit to cure it.No reason at all that you can`t be happy with it as is. 2 of my Diana guns I don`t plan to put JM kits in.A lotta people are happy just as you are.
There is normally a bit of clearance between the walls and spring
March 29 2010, 6:51 PM
so you will have SOME vibration as a matter of course. The rear guide helps prevent the spring from kinking slightly. If it is a bit on the narrow side, you can always get some shrink wrap and bring the circumference up so that it fits the inside of the spring better. You can also polish the spring and the ends, then relube it. Or, if you are satisfied with how the gun presently is shooting, oil it and have fun. These aren't Holland and Holland "best guns" to be babied. Mamma Diana bore them to be used.
While you may have some hearing loss, the twang is most evident in how the spring jars the gun. Shoot an untuned gun against one that's been well worked over and you will see the difference. But that is something you can do or have done down the road if you want to explore that side of air gunning.
on this replacement 177 34 that the piston to cylinder clearance is very tight.I tried to install some JM buttons,just wasen`t room,very tight.
Steve from NC has been talking about the shrink wrap tune for years.I guess I didn`t have the right materal,didn`t last.Should have ordered some from the place he was talking about back then.Would love to get a lathe&make my own rear guide&top hat.Not sure how to get started.Maybe in the future.
do that?Nothing wrong with getting attached!I started to buy a R-1 when they 1st came out,I had a Webley Vulcan,then a HW55 MM with high speed mainspring upgrade,then a FWB 124 standard,then a 124 Deluxe.
The weight was the reason I didn`t get the R-1.I now have a HW 80 in 177(Same as R-1 with plainer stock),but I have a 20cal barrel on it,and a AA Pro Elite in 177,and both those guns chrony 1000 fps with Crosman Premier Light pellets,and both are heavyweight tack drivers.Hope you keep that gun,sounds like you may be getting the fever?
It realy is a nice gun and has really been taken good care of and shoots well and I can find no problems but at 25 years old and I would think the seals or something would need replacing, are these things difficult to rebuild? and how do I know if it needs rebuilding for that matter. send me your email and Iwill send you a picture
cock your gun with the stock off then look for the top of the piston/base of the piston seal. Put a couple of drops of chamber lube...I've used the old beeman chamber lube with success. Then point the gun straight down and shoot it a few times with lightweight pellets. this will cause the lube to disperse in the upper section of the compression chamber without getting in front of the seal. I have to give Ed Krysnowek credit for this information.
Dizz I have the same situation you have. My 34 piston started
March 30 2010, 9:13 PM
dragging after my last tune and the buttons would not fit. The fat washer just under the piston seal was getting scored. You would think the seal would prevent that. I used a dremmel to clean it up. Then I cut 2 straight edges on some buttons. I fitted these on that fat washer. In the back I used the dremmel to make a tiny low spot for the 3 buttons in back. Hand sanded and put it in tight. Later took it apart and the top button was tearing on front and back. The piston was only rubbing on the bottom front and back so I cleaned off the 2 bad buttons and it work great with 2 bottom buttons front and back. This things cocks as smooth as my R7 and R9. Its super accurate too. I just have to make sure my BKL adjustable mount stays put.
This gun still has the original factory seal and it 20 years old. I did sand it smooth though. Diana guns are the sherman tanks of the airgun world.
Also when you find out about the shrink tube will you let me know how it works. I used shrink tube from Ace hardware and it did not hold. I even used super glue before the shrink job. It sure s\moothed out the gun. The guides in those guns are a joke but so are the triggers. I saw some shrink tube online that is some kind of teflon. Very interesting but with the cost of that stuff it don't even make any sense. We both need lathes and then we still have to learn to use them and find the raw srock to use. Its gotta happen some day though.
we buy tune kits,and for sure the springs are better,but fot the most part if I could make a fitted guide&top hat that would do so much better than stock.the thing I wonder about making the guide is the exact size center hole,made from a bar stock of solid delrin,or whatever it is.I did make several guides for Gamo rifles,with copper coated solid steel drive in ground lighting bars.really turned out great with the stock springs,but when making them you gotta be sure to use right spring I.D,as the burr from grinding will give a false reading,have to use a Dremel to gring off burr.Seems my new 34 is cocking nicely,with 1/2 of a button left.I mix JM moly with the European grease he sells.I find this lasts longer than straight moly.I still use only moly at piston seal.On a 350 mag when they 1st came out in 177 cal,I had to tear it back down&take all moly from piston seal,wouldn`t stop burning it from the H.Velocity.