I feel that this has some to do with the excellent group and more to do with the fact that Mr. Gore could be (or is?) offering a Vortek spring and guide set-up for the D430?
It is always the same info, so I forget: 20 meters, FT position. On this particular instance the rifle was scoped with a Vortex Optics 4-12X40 AO DH-BDC Diamondback for the test.
And yes, Clark is right, this has more to do with the fact that Tom will be releasing soon (after the successful tests) the PG2 kit for the 430. It is a very special kit with a VERY high tech arrangement of sleeves, washers, dampers, a very light, but still powerful enough spring. It is an FT shooter's dream. It keeps the gun at about WFTF level (12 ft-lbs) and provides an incredible shot cycle. It will fit the HMO piston (as in this case), or will come equipped with a special double walled top-hat that coupled with the Vortek piston seal will reduce the vibrations of the OEM piston noticeably.
Once you achieve an optimum shot cycle and a perfectly stable, repeatable, and consistent compression cycle, the result cannot be anything but good.
When we met last weekend at the CT airgun show we struck it off immediately and believe me when I tell you that there are a lot of good things just waiting to happen.
For the time being, if anyone is interested in this kit, post here. I would like to know how many would like it. Cost will be a little above the usual PG-2 kits because it has additional parts inside.
I fully realize that not everyone will want one; after all, once you get a single hole it is a single hole, whether 1/4" c-c or 1/16" c-c it is still one hole, and not everyone is after such precision if he only shoots at cans. But for those that want/need it. It is now available.
Gonna be in San Francisco, CA, all next week. So I'll be away and not necessarily connected.
It's amazing how many people missed the note on your target in the original post!
Awesome to hear that you and Mr. Gore are collaborating on some projects. I'm sure that us airgunners will benefit greatly from your efforts.
It would be great to hear a price from Vortek but given that the price is going to be somewhere between the current kit prices and $100 I'd probably spring for one. The stock spring and guide set-up produces some excess vibration (not bad for a stock gun) but it is leagues away from the smoothness of my D34 with a Vortek kit.
In rifle shooting (benchrest or High Power) , we never trust 3 or 5 shot groups. They will lie to you. Only 10 shots or above are repeatable.....day in, and day out.
When you are "group shooting", if the the first 3 or 5 shots are terrible, you are not going to make the group better by shooting more. So give up, and try something else.
If the 5 shot group are pretty good, keep shooting into it. This is the true test of accuracy. You want something that you can truely believe in.
I come from a powder-burning benchrest, High Power, Long Range Camp Perry, and gunsmithing back-ground. As a whole, we trust nothing unless it is proven beyond a doubt. Five shots are hopeful, but not reliable.
I know that Hector knows this. One can rarely poke any holes in his theories or performances.
I don't mean any disrespect here. But "air burners" and powder burners all obey the same statistical laws. The more shots you fire into a group, the more reliable it is. Period.
...the more shots you take the more likely you are to introduce user anomalies from fatigue, mental "pressure", etc.
Sense and testing will show that more shots will increase the likelihood of a human twitch while not increasing the likelihood of a mechanical failure.
Five shots (after a good warm up series) is a fine test of mechanics while limiting human error. We ARE testing hardware here, right?
Rather than urge one to create a single 100 shot group, 20 5-shot groups would be a stronger test. You can still use the same target, simply choose a POA that is NOT the same as your POI (That means you don't destroy your POA), and shoot 5 rounds in groups with time between groups to rest and start each group fresh.
Sample size is a hobgoblin of all disciplines. Undergrads tend to over sample, grad students tend to under sample. Both lead to different problems. They can be fixed by various statistical analysis methods (boot strapping saved my butt), but planning for sample size before any study is a good practice.
When I'm testing hardware, I use a bench or lay prone. Fatigue really does not enter into a group. I use plenty of scope too.
Many times when building a group, there are times when projectiles just pile on top of each other. This is just the statistical build up. If I shoot a super 5 shot group, I want to put 5 more into it and see if the string will hold up or fall apart.
If someone posts several consecutive 5-shot groups, those are certainly believable and trustworthy. But we know that many times newbies post those rare one-time groups - they are always 3 or 5 shots. One does not shoot "lucky" 10-shot groups.
All this is aimed at the newer shooters and not you or other experienced trigger pullers.
packrat .. Does it matter if you drop 20 in the same hole on a bench . Many a hunter has quaffed at the sight of the kill when confronted with a deadly accurate gun.(Remember "Deliverance") Remember Its the KILL that inspires us hunters not 10 shots on paper. I know many men who cant hit a paper plate yet can hit a running deer at 100 yrds and drop them. Lets not get into this as it was a GREAT 5 shot group from standard pellets
Buy a Vortex kit from me,Tom and I have a deal in the works,I'll supply the Hector piston and Tom will supply the Vortex kit,or you can order both from me and avoid shipping from two different places.
See that wasn't to hard,,Was it?
Best Regards
BBGun Bob
reschlund@wowway.com
S.E. Michigan
"Springers are neat,,One Shot One Bullseye"
If You Can Master Shooting One!
Clark.- We are working on it. I doubt it will get that high, we are doing our best on the price end. On the product end, I think we got a good solution now. Our problem is a very expensive liner. If we need to keep it, we need to keep it. But still I would doubt the price would go as high as you are thinking.
Packrat.- While I would agree wholeheartedly in the case of powder burners and PCP's, in the spring-gunner's realm, it is hard to bench a spring gun. Therefore, it is REALLY HARD to shoot 10 shot groups or 20 shot groups. In the PCP world, when you have to test 100 Steyr's LG-110 you simply clamp them to a 500 lbs concrete block with a machinist / tool makers vise and you do it. In the case of the spring guns, especially the light-for power guns like the 430, you get into trouble if you clamp them down. So your best bet is to shoot them off your body in the best possible position. For ME, that is the seating FT position because I use it a lot and rely on it heavily.
The other aspect of Bob's gun with the Vortek kit is that it shoots more than a few pellets well. So that is another indication that the user should do well with the gun. I have found that even changes in body weight change the performance of some guns accuracy wise. We are working with SO LITTLE power, that a few more pounds here or there do make as difference.
Kris.- Statistics are good, but they are only a tool. I have run tests where the sample ended up being the population! Problem then is that you have shot all those pellets and then you are into a different lot and then it becomes a different population! LOL! Since it is difficult to benchrest a spring gun, I do believe that several 5 shot groups at 20 meters, especially when I use an assortment of pellets, tell me everything I need to know about a gun. But that is just ME and MMHO.
Chris.- Thanks!, many, many, many thanks! Your kindnesses are greatly appreciated.
Bob.- Tom Gore and I are working together on better defining HOW to work together, I am much more geared to the custom side and he is more geared to the general public side, we both respect each other's technical capabilities. We are looking at joining strengths and reducing our weaknesses. So it's more probable that soon you will be able to buy the whole caboodle from the Vortek site rather than going through me and the mess I make of communications and addresses and numbers. I will keep on doing the custom work for those that really need personal attention to specific and challenging situations, but Vortek is really better geared to the general sales side.
![[linked image]](http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/2680/vortektest1.jpg)
