<< Previous Topic | Next Topic >>Return to Index  

.25 lead pellet molds, Mr. Medina?

February 3 2012 at 7:12 AM
  (Login ClarkB)
from IP address 50.81.174.71

 
I quote Héctor Medina from the lead recovery thread:

"And, sometime soon, we will get some 0.25" cal pellet molds made."

You know someone was going to ask about this so let's get on with it! What size, weight and design of pellets are you thinking about? Are we talking single, double or sextuple cavity molds?

In another thread you poke fun at those who enjoy casting bullets: "For those survivalists/die-hard Walden-pondians, the 0.25" cal is the smallest caliber where you can reliably cast decent, light, pellets" but since you brought it up I'm beginning to think you might be the Walden-esque of anyone here!

More seriously it does sound like an interesting project to compliment the .25/460 project.

Clark


 
 Respond to this message   
AuthorReply


(Login HectorMedina)
24.47.240.247

Precisely!

February 3 2012, 9:53 AM 

I am designing something that can be cherry-cutter made into a 2 - 3 cavity mould. Why 3? because you need a punch for each of the skirts, a double/triple punch is doable, more is getting tricky.
Head will be a modified Keith SWC.
I am aiming at a weight of about 25-30 grains in a solid nose. It would be interesting to also get a "Georg HollowPointer" type tool.

After the Vipers in 0.177" and 0.22", and quite a lot of projectiles in 0.177", 0.22", 0.30" and 0.357" punched from my Corbin dies, I do have some experience in this.

And yes, I am possibly one of those "closet Walden-Pondians" ROFL!

Good eye!



Un Abrazo!




H�ctor

 
 Respond to this message   

(Login only1harry)
71.169.33.87

how about 35-45gr?

February 3 2012, 10:20 AM 

Hector,

If you can fill a niche for the PCP guys with 35-50gr .25 pellets or bullets, you will make some $. We have the JSB 25.4gr which is extremely accurate in most .25 guns, and we have the 31gr Kodiaks which are more than acceptable in many guns. What we need is ~35 to 45gr pellets or bullets that are accurate. They do not exist. The Eun Jin 43gr are average in most guns, and some of the Barnes (Jerry's) 6 & 7 ring 62-72gr are OK but not great. If you can fill that gap between 35 and 45 or even 50gr, you will be in business. I realize these will not be for Springers, but only moderate-high power PCP's. It's food for thought. What do you think? There a ton of PCP guys looking for a better pellet that's more than 30-31gr. There just aren't any good choices out there. There are 1 or 2 in the 40-50gr range that are reportedly good, but are very expensive IMO. Maybe such heavy pellets are too expensive to produce and make them be accurate, I don't know, but I do know price is everything for the success of a new product. So maybe the lack of heavier pellet choices is because the price would not be attractive(?)..

----
Diana 350 .22
Diana 350 .177
Diana 48 .22
Diana 36 .177
Lemak AF Condor .25
Talon Tunes AF Condor .25
Airhog AF Condor .22
RWS Hammerli 850 .22
Crosman NPSS .22
Diana 5G Pistol
Crosman 2240 Custom
Other Crosman Pump & CO2 .177

 
 Respond to this message   

(Login ClarkB)
50.81.174.71

Sounds interesting

February 3 2012, 3:03 PM 

Sounds like a fun project. Is there a reason you're staying that heavy for an air rifle projectile? It makes sense for the PCP shooters but would seem to be a tough sell to the spring-piston guys. Going with the Keith SWC seems like an unlikely choice but then again, I know next to nothing about making bullets.

You said Corbin dies and after looking them up are we talking about swaging bullets or casting them? When you originally said something about bullet molds I assumed you were talking casting but Corbin looks like a company that deals in swaging bullets. Maybe I'm just confusing things?

Clark

 
 Respond to this message   


(Login aom22)
99.34.159.238

Casting Pellet ... Sizing Die

February 3 2012, 8:28 PM 

Corbin is a long-time bullet swaging company.  Got their start recycling spent .22lr cases as jackets for centerfire bullets.

Cast pellet will need some post processing for consistency ... sizing dies might be a good ides to ensure reasonable accuracy.


 
 Respond to this message   

RedFeather
(Login RedFeather)
Owner Moderator
173.73.139.192

You might want to check out a thread on the Yellow

February 3 2012, 9:33 PM 

Fellow swages hollow-based pellets out of round balls.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1327186221/Want+to+cut+down+the+costs+of+big+bore+shooting+and+swage+your+own+pellets-

Molding .25 pellets sounds like it will be pretty challenging. That's a fairly small pill and you've got the waist to sort out sort of like a Minie ball. I wouldn't expect you to be nearly as consistent as those from a tin.


 
 Respond to this message   
Jeff C.
(no login)
69.109.41.223

Have a look at these dies. I bet he would make us whatever we want.

February 4 2012, 8:36 AM 


 
 Respond to this message   
Jeff C.
(no login)
69.109.41.223

Sorry forgot the url

February 4 2012, 8:36 AM 


 
 Respond to this message   


(Login HectorMedina)
24.47.240.247

TWO different processes

February 5 2012, 8:43 AM 

Casting gives you one projectile weight that you may "adjust" in diameter by using different alloys.

Swaging gives you a fixed diameter or two that you can adjust by making the projectile longer o shorter.

I've done both.

Google "Viper Projectiles" to see some of the moulds we have had made, these ones were by Lee Precision:


[linked image]

I have also swaged pellets using Corbin dies.

To accurately shoot swaged pellets you need a non-airgun barrel in the proper caliber.

Cast pellets can be made either in pellet shape or bullet shape, but IMHO, the currrent airgun type barrels need a pellet (diabolo) shaped projectile.

Cast pellets in the smaller calibers cannot be accurately made because the lead has such a high surface tension when liquid that it will not form well all the detailed edges needed for accuracy. You need to start at the 0.25" cal. mark and use a skirt.

A Keith SWC nose will provide good accuracy at the MV's we use. In my Ruger 0.357" silhouette revolver they were accurate out to 300 yards.

Getting into making these pellets as a business is not really in my plans. But perhaps getting the moulds made would be interesting.

We'll see.

happy.gif





Un Abrazo!




H�ctor

 
 Respond to this message   

RedFeather
(Login RedFeather)
Owner Moderator
173.73.139.192

How are you planning to form the pocket cavity for the skirt?

February 5 2012, 10:04 AM 

I've used three-part Minie bullet molds but I don't think that approach is doable with such a small pellet and thin skirt. If you need a waisted pellet, perhaps swaging a round ball (as in the linked photos) and then making some sort of V-shaped roller to form the waist? Then again, you could also make a two part mold to pour a solid diablo and drill out the rear as a second step. Be tedious but possible.

Since the .25 weighs more in the range of small rifle or pistol bullets, have you toyed with the idea of some sort of sabot? A sub-caliber round of the same weight might work.


 
 Respond to this message   


(Login HectorMedina)
24.47.240.247

Hello Red!

February 6 2012, 7:10 AM 

Actually, the conversations with 3 mould makers and some experiments are what led me to believe that you cannot mould adequately anything under 0.25" cal. (actually, the diameter at the thin edge of the skirt is around 0.260").

As long as a good alloy is used that incorporates some Tin, it is quite possible to make the skirt using a hinge-pin mounted punch. The mould's temperature is somewhat sensitive, but it is not harder to maintain, than the normal casting of Loverin style bullets.

A peculiar offshoot of all this was the current availability of shotgun slugs that are nothing but scaled UP diabolo pellets! ROFL!

Sabots are interesting, but the real application of sabots is in the use of non-conventional projectiles; in that sense, some flechette experiments proved VERY interesting, but not yet applicable to the current state of the art rifles, nor targets. JMHO.



Un Abrazo!




H�ctor

 
 Respond to this message   

RedFeather
(Login RedFeather)
Owner Moderator
173.73.139.192

Yes, I've seen those slugs you mentioned

February 6 2012, 9:46 AM 

I have a circa 1969 Gun Digest and I believe the originals or something very close are reviewed. These were some kind of solid that had the shuttle cock shape.

Military applications aside, sabots can be very effective for sporting use. Consider the proliferation of in-line muzzle loaders. These shoot saboted pistol bullets almost exclusively. (Owners simply will not learn that it isn't necessary but what can you do?) And sabot technology is even older if you consider that paper patching is nearly the same thing. In fact, you can patch sub-caliber bullets and shoot them successfully, especially in obsolete bored guns. One reason sabots came to mind for these .25's where ammo is hard to find. If you can get a good seal, I imagine that something like a patched or saboted PCP-profiled .22 might just work.

One thing which was lightly touched upon in discussing molding pellets is the alloy. As you say, the mixture will allow you to fiddle a bit with the weight and hardness through varying the tin/lead ratio but it will also affect the size. Not sure how much shrinkage you might get by upping the tin. At any rate, those wishing to "run ball" as the front stuffers say must be prepared to introduce yet another set of variables into the pellet/gun mix.


 
 Respond to this message   


(Login HectorMedina)
24.47.240.247

Red;

February 7 2012, 6:40 AM 

One of the interesting developments of late is that now we are not only limited to tin as an alloying agent.

wink.gif



Un Abrazo!




H�ctor

 
 Respond to this message   

(Login ClarkB)
50.81.174.71

Re: Red;

February 7 2012, 9:02 AM 

Héctor - I should have explained myself better last time. I'm curious why you are going with the Keith SWC instead of a more traditional rounded head design. I would think the SWC would hamper the potential BC significantly and I know you like a high BC (but who doesn't?) The heavier pellet will obviously help with BC but it seems like you are going quite heavy for a spring gun. Wouldn't something 25 grains or less be a bit more friendly to the spring airgunner?

Granted, I can see some huge potential in this pellet design. If one were to accept 40-50 yard shots as absolute maximum, after you've figured out the trajectory, hold-over/under, etc this design would smack small game like none other! Probably leave a nice round hole in paper too.

Clark

 
 Respond to this message   


(Login HectorMedina)
24.47.240.247

Clark;

February 7 2012, 11:00 AM 

MOST of the horrible BC of pellets comes from the hollow skirt. NOT the nose.

A Keith SWC is an ideal HUNTING profile, and this is the REAL and MAIN focus of a 0.25" cal powerhouse.

25 grains in 0.25" cal. is NOT heavy, it is a medium weight pellet for the caliber.

In ANY case, a 0.25" cal IS a 50 yard gun, whatever pellets you want to use.



Un Abrazo!




H�ctor

 
 Respond to this message   

RedFeather
(Login RedFeather)
Owner Moderator
173.73.139.192

What are using besides tin?

February 7 2012, 1:10 PM 

The usual antimony seems too hard for any airgun applications. Bismuth? I just looked into casting with that but it's said to be expensive and, again, kind of hard. What else are you meddling with?


 
 Respond to this message   


(Login HectorMedina)
24.47.240.247

All of the above, plus tin and cadmium

February 8 2012, 7:42 AM 

you can get ready alloyed ingots at reasonable prices of known compositions so, then you can make your own alloy by adding lead/more lead or tin/more tin to the desired hardness/cold diameter/fluidity.

If you think airgunning is an art, casting good projectiles is another.

Take a look at this, it's funny:

http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/bullet-casting/mould-details-shotgun.php?entryID=84



Un Abrazo!




H�ctor

 
 Respond to this message   

RedFeather
(Login RedFeather)
Owner Moderator
173.73.139.192

What I was getting at

February 8 2012, 12:49 PM 

If you are using a hollow skirted pellet in an air gun, particularly a springer, do you want to use additives to the lead which will raise the hardness? And, yes, casting is, indeed, more art than science. Getting a relatively tiny .25 pellet to come out right is going to take a lot more trial and error than some readers of this thread might imagine. Let's just say they should expect to pack a lunch (but no eating while working with lead or some of these "exotic" metals).


 
 Respond to this message   
Current Topic - .25 lead pellet molds, Mr. Medina?
  << Previous Topic | Next Topic >>Return to Index  
Find more forums on Air GunsCreate your own forum at Network54
 Copyright © 1999-2014 Network54. All rights reserved.   Terms of Use   Privacy Statement