RWS ( Diana ) 460 tuning with Vortek PG2 Tuning KitMarch 8 2012 at 1:34 PM
|Dino (Login Dino18)|
Hector I am sorry for the mess I did with my previous posts. I want to apologize for that.
I open this thread as an extension and want to explain that it will be about tuning of my Diana 460 magnum .22 .
Now ,I think to follow Hectors suggestions and to put Vortek kit plus new breach seal . Here I have to mention that I found a problem with the breach spring .It was loose ( short ) ,but I shim it .I will try to make some pictures and to put them here. After that the scope will be replaced too.
Everything step by step.
Hector my E-mail is firstname.lastname@example.org
Please tell me more about HMR seals for RWS 460 .
Dino ( BG )
Héctor J Medina G
|March 10 2012, 5:53 AM |
The HMR breech seal is a metal reinforced seal.
The metal reinforcement provides protection from the hot plasma gases that pass through ghe transfer port. Especially hot when using an HMO piston in the sliding cylinder guns they were designed for.
They were born as an offshoot of our first project, the 430 Stutzens. If you search for the thread about the "Stutzen incident". You will understand clearly what the problem was.
The HMR seal also allows me to tailor the transfer port size to the gun, as very slightly different transfer ports end up in better, or worse, shot cycles.
Lastly, the HMR seal can be extracted from the rear of the compression cylinder. The plastic part replaced and the gun is working again. Removing breech seals from the 48 family is one of those hard tasks we would like to avoid.
The concept has been extended and now includes the 430, 48, & 460 families.
Price is $35 and I really prefer to receive the compression cylinder for a proper first installation.
The 460 is a wonderful hunter. It is the only gun that can truly max out the 0.177" cal. pellets, reaching easily the 18 - 19 ft-lb. region.
In 0.22" I've seen some develop 25 ft-lbs. with ease.
Vortek kits do improve the 460's behaviour, and the Mk. III HMO pistons in T-05 & 06 are fully compatible.
As far as your breech closing spring is concerned, yes you are right, we discussed that some years ago, and as far as the factory reported to me, they had corrected the issue for the T-06 models.
Good luck, and keep us posted!
|March 10 2012, 10:00 AM |
Thanks for explaining how HMR breech seal works,
can I ask a few more things about the seal, as it looks like a professional job to fit one,
the way I understand it is that if the seal was removed there would be a small gap between the transfer port and the breech end of the barrel, there would not be metal to metal contact where the seal would be, the seal fills the gap but the gap is very small, so dose the HMR metal part press against the breech? a bit like the HW underlevers when shot.
I have noticed that when I fit a very slightly thicker seal a doughnut shape forms where the pressure from the piston hitting the bottom of the tube is pushing the seal tight against the breech so there cant be much room, this is why I am guessing it would need to be professionally fitted.
The Dianas have a tapered breech and the HWs have a flat breech that looks stronger for metal to metal contact.
Hector, perhaps I have got it all wrong please correct me.
Héctor J Medina G
|March 10 2012, 10:21 AM |
not absolutely essential, as Diana parts are very well made, but I do like to go over the whole fit of things.
In general, pressure is inversely related to area. If you think about the HW method, the closing force of the spring is spread over a flat area, therefore the closing pressure (pressure that is OPPOSING the compression pressure) is lower than in the Diana's. So while it may LOOK stronger from the mechanical standpoint, in reality (IMHO) it is a WEAKER pressure containment method.
HW's and Dianas' method of breech sealing works reasonably well within the European limits of power, temperature and pressure.
When you want to go higher than 12 ft-lbs and for extended shooting sessions, is when you start getting in problems.
So, you are right about the appreciation of the differences, but I believe that you forgot that you are not looking for mechanical resistance here, but pressure containment.
|March 12 2012, 1:55 PM |
There are a few pictures that says how I decide the problem with breach spring.
I made two washers ,first 1.5 mm thick and second 2 mm thick .I put the thinner now.
Hector I will give you answer next days.I am very busy now.
Dino.( BG )
|March 14 2012, 1:53 PM |
Hector , if I understand right you will have to make changes on compression cylinder. Is it mean if one you do that, I can not get back to using normal breach seals ? If this is right which seals do I need in case it need to be replaced? Where can I find them ?
I am not ready with my decision ,but I might use Vortek seals too . Are those I need ?
I have doubt because RWS 52 has different original breach seal than RWS 460,but Vortek offer one the same for both?
I just put a kit in a 54 and I'll be darned if I can see any breach seal
|March 14 2012, 10:44 PM |
in there. It just looks like lapped steel to steel to me like a valve in an automobile.. Don't seem to leak either.
Dino I like the look of those mini spring guides
|March 15 2012, 2:51 AM |
The only thing is you still have a weak spring even though it is more compressed.
I think that it is simple to just fit a stronger spring or another spring inside the weak one
I would really like to see a picture of one of Hectors seals, they sound really interesting and the best.
At the moment I am using factory seal parts including part no13 it is to restrict the power in Germany, but is just the right thickness for a spacer if you open it up to 4mm
Héctor J Medina G
Barry, I have refrained from posting pictures
|March 15 2012, 7:32 AM |
until I hear back from M&G on whether they will undertake the European patenting process.
There have been recent, and not too good, changes on the International Patent laws and practices and, as things change, the US Patent office is deviating more and more from accepted, international practices.
This is a terrible thing for small companies like mine. So steps had to be taken to protect the whole idea.
Lawyers say that I can still make them and install them, as any reverse-engineering taken from a purchased product becomes a HUGE liability to the evil-intentioned copier, but I cannot risk posting pictures until this has been defined.
Héctor J Medina G
|March 15 2012, 7:27 AM |
the HMR breech seal is a self-standing piece. It does NOT alter the compression cylinder. My seals are built on Vortek seals, I do need to re-work them a little to make everything work well, and that is why they are model, and caliber, specific. If you are dissatisfied, or want to change back to the OEM or the pure Vortek seal, it is relatively easy to do.
So far, the HMR seal in my WFTF D54 has been through about 7,000 pellets without ANY deformation beyond the initial forming to barrel breech process. So I am fairly confident that you will NEVER need a new breech seal again; LOL! Well . . . almost never.
What I can do is send you one metal insert and two or three Vortek seals to fit YOUR model and caliber. Extra seals would have the same price as in the Vortek site.
Re: No, Dino;
|March 15 2012, 12:23 PM |
Barry, I also thought to change the spring with new but could not find good one.I mean strong enough and with appropriate size.The OEM spring look strong ,but it is short .I guess it has been made short by mistake and not because it is weak and became short .
How did I noticed the problem ? After I read here in the forum for the problem I decide to check how good compression cylinder closes the breach.It was terrible, every time I cock the gun the cylinder does not want to go to the end and i need to push it a little with my finger .Now with that washer it is ok.
Hector , If you think that I can instal HMO seal and it is not something very complicated I can try it and you have to send it to me. Of course I will pay for that. But if you prefere you to do that I have to send the compression cylinder .In this case the job will be a little slowly .Both ways work for me. I just like everything to be done properly.My E-mail is email@example.com
Héctor J Medina G
|March 16 2012, 7:30 AM |
RWS 52 (TO1) with Vortek PG2 kit
|May 3 2012, 10:38 PM |
Hi , I put Vortek PG2 kit on my RWS 52 .177 two days ago. Result is remarkable. I changed breach seal too. The airgun had 650 FPS( CP heavy) before to be fixed . Now :
CP 10.5=> -979.33 FSP ; -911.08 FSP ; -979.33FPS; -967.51 FPS
I tried one light pellet and the speed reached 1197.5 FPS
Next days RWS460 .22 will be tuned too.
But I have one question : Can I use the same breach seal ? I mean those one that I put on RWS 52 .Vortek says that part is for RWS48 /52/54/46/460/470
Is it right ?
Dino ( BG )
Are you saying 879, 911,879, 867?
|May 5 2012, 5:42 AM |
If those are the numbers that sounds really high. 911 sounds good. Was it dieseling?
979 is 22 ft/lbs wow!
Good luck with your 460 install!
Bruce , the numbers are right.
|May 5 2012, 6:05 AM |
My chronograph is metric .At first ( maybe first 5-7 shots ) numbers were 301.5 meter ps .After 15-20 another shots i make chroni again and nubers are 298.5 mps ; 277.7 ; 298.5 ; 294.9
A have to check with another chronograph ,but do not have one right now.
Re: Bruce , the numbers are right.
|May 8 2012, 10:40 AM |
Does anybody can tell my how much grease I have to put on the Vortek PG2 kit ? There's a small black box with grease . Is it right to put all quantity or it is not necessary . Last time on my RWS 48 I put just a half.
And again to ask , what breach seal from Vortek can I use on RWS 460 ? It is look like those from Vortek is different from the original .
Not sure about the seal but
|May 8 2012, 11:18 AM |
For the grease my kit said to use about 1/2 I did but I think less than that is really required.
Héctor J Medina G
|May 8 2012, 12:44 PM |
what your "pinky" (small) finger can pick up.
The grease goes around the OUTSIDE of the PG2 outside guide. The insides are already lubricated from factory.
I gather from your question that you have not received the breech seal I sent.
Vortek does not make a 460 breech seal. You can buy one of their 48 seals and reduce the height to about 0.160"
new chrony testing D 52 says different
|June 2 2012, 11:03 PM |
Bruce, last week I made new test of my D52( with PG2 kit ) and result are different . CP is 836 fps average and look like your numbers. I expected that something is wrong and suspect the chrony but it is not. Probably the spring need to get more shots and time .Hope the speed will remain about these numbers.
460 Breech Seals Available
|May 8 2012, 4:48 PM |