"How many generations out can you go and feel comfortable that you can't blame a problem on any certain parent anymore?? 3,5, 7?"
I have been thinking about how to best answer this question without sounding too anectodal. But I'm afraid it is going to have to be largely based on my own experience and from what I have witnessed. So much about dog breeding is more about watching and learning than it is about reading books (although I fully advocate that too, just so you can put definition to what it is you are looking at).
Anyway...
My first response to this question is to say the dog's influence would all have to do with how linebred the pedigree is, but on more reflection I think that is not always true.
Prepotence of a dog might be more of a factor and sometimes a prepotent dog is not linebred at all.
You have to look at a dog and see how he looks in relation to his own ancestors. I have found that dogs that seem to "come form nowhere" in other words, not resemble their families have more potenital to reproduce themselves than their more common siblings who are similar in style to the family. If a dog expresses a look that is not something that has been attempted to be pounded into him, then you have to figure he got a different set of genetic cards so to speak (this would have to be an entirely new thread).
Now, linebreeding does stamp issues, that's why we do it.
Often times people are linebreeding and do not fully understand the breed therefore the poor traits get compounded.
It is beneficial to have a working knowledge of the pedigrees beyond 5 generations, without that you are kind of just throwing dice.
And with that in mind, please remember.. there is no magic formula. Sometimes newer and more open minded breeders have an advantage over those "stuck in the past".
Ok, so continuing on.
You can utilize other people's knowledge of those old dogs **if they know what they are talking about**.
For example. I know many people who came into bulldogs at the time when one dog or another was a top winner and that particular dog "imprinted on them" as an ideal specimen and no one can ever talk him down, no matter what.
Conversely, they could have a bias against a perfectly nice dog and talk him down.
Dangerous situation for anyone wanting to advance, I am sure you can reason why.
Most of you will be at a distinct disadvantage, even as you find yourself able to be familiar personally with 5 generations of bulldogs because you probly don't know the 5 before that.
And this is what dog breeding is all about. Trying and trying again.
But, I digress again (easy to do, this is a mult faceted issue).
The original question had more to do with fingering one dog or another.
For an example. And you would have to look at my pedigrees to see the degree in which I in and linbreed to get the gist of this.
My Indy dog was a smallish dog, great head, although it was more like a skull with skin stretched over it.. very clean. He did not have great depth of brisket and his ears tended to fly.
So.
I linebred quite a bit on this dog, who himself was nicely linebred.. not too extreme, but it was well thought out.
So, in the first generation we got lovely dogs, not at all like him, very strong heads with more substance to them, fuller fronts, better ears. 13 champions from maybe 10 litters.
Ok, so now came g1, g2 and g3 to figure out.
Battled ears pretty much until BamBam (Alabama Slammer)(5 crosses back to him in 3, 4 and 5 generations).
Still am very cautious about briskets even after all this time. I know better than to breed two of my dogs who are even a little shallow.
So, he was a dog we utilized in the late 1980's. And we are currently working on dogs that are at the very least 5 generations removed.
But, in my pedigrees we find all of our current dogs have many crosses back to him so you would expect influence even now.
I view my breedings as a constant work in progress. I don't typically breed with a one-shot-deal in mind and I think many breeders think short term when breeding, which is a big mistake.
Plus you have a rapid turnover of breeders with a bulk of many current dogs being the produce of short term breeders who were in it for just a short amount of time with hardly any working knowledge of the breed or how to breed them.
Yes, lots of champions, but the quality of champions in the last 5-10 years has been really just average. But that is getting away from the point.
You need to identify the issue then do your homeowork.
If you are fingering temperments, it really doesn't take much to figure out where the current crop of "idiots" is coming from, although to be fair, there have always been crazy bulldogs (again, I feel deafness might be a big factor, but that's just an unproven theory).
If you are fingering some other conformation or even health faults, again, look to the pedigree and the degree of linebreeding. Identify the dog who seemed to "kick off" the problem, then try to ascertain how infuential he truly is or was. Many times it is not so much one dog, but the poor breeding decisions of the people who bred a few generations of "fault to fault" (common occurance).
Many people look to the famous dog being linebred on and forget that maybe his very pet quality mom is in there too, just as many times. Just as an example. Many possible scenarios there.
So, the answer is, there is no single answer.
Best advise is to keep breeding away from the fault. I feel any conformation deficit can be overcome with thoughtful breeding.
When you get to health and temperment issues, I don't feel they are worth the "in between" dogs that happen until you can fix it.. which often times you truly never can.
In other words, do not breed bad temperments or health problems. The dogs suffer, the pet owners suffer, the breed suffers and then we will all suffer when "they" take our breed away from us.
Remember that I am still troubled with shallow briskets on occasion after all this time.
Sorry for the ramble and the fact that the ramble gave no definitve answer.
Hopefully it made you think about some things.
e
www.milamshugobull.com
Posted on Oct 13, 2008, 1:03 PM from IP address 65.77.65.11
