My mistake, ace - on the "overage" thing...I meant to say "NHL drafted" which was discussed earlier in the summer. Your reading - questionable at best - I SAID Saginaw didn't count because of the Kellerman situation but when Sarnia opens the season with Robert Gherson and Ryan Munce (both NHL draft picks) - then you'll officially be wrong...again.

As for Larose, you obviously weren't watching him much and probably don't see any other games around the league except those in Saginaw. I do. Others do. Chad Larose had an "exceptional" season and can be considered a "great" OA player given what he contributed. If Thorburn was coming back to the Whalers this year, he'd have a chance to be considered the same. Great that a certain coach was pleased to be getting rid of Thorburn thinking Plymouth would be disappointed. Thorburn was nothing more than the Whalers' BEST player in the postseason.

Your BP Logic inhibits you from recognizing a great junior player won't necessarily even make an NHL, let alone an AHL roster. Geoff Platt could be an example of this. Platt could be a "great" OA player in this league. Do you disagree with that?

When you say that MacDonell's a "very solid" OHL defenceman AND Larose is not a "great" OHL player when he scores 61 goals and 117 points - AND teams never carry two NHL drafted goalies (Munce/Gherson in Sarnia) - AND of course other chestnuts like....

"Peter Flache finished the season strong"...WHAT? The TEAM didn't score a goal in their last 9 periods and Geoff Platt scored nearly every goal in the 3 games before that!!!

"MacDonell rides a guy out of the crease better than anybody on his team"...based on what I saw last year that's not the case

"Not sure if there is room for him but James Edgar will have a chance to make this team"....Edgar was NEVER EVER coming back. Showed lack of talent, discipline, and brains most nights, not surprised you thought so highly of him.

"Tyson Kellerman will be traded this summer". While we all know it will happen, another incorrect stab at BP Logic.

Regarding Kellerman, "I expect us to get a player and a draft pick for him". Waiting for that pipe dream to play itself out.

"Saginaw did do pretty well against the OHL champion Rangers". no wins, 3 losses, one tie. They might have gave a decent effort in 3 games, but "pretty well" isn't two points of a possible eight against anymore.

"Dennis may not be the best coach who ever lived, but he has forgotten more about hockey than most of the people posting here will ever know." IRRELEVANT! Is he the best available coach for this hockey team right now? That probably gets determined 20 games into this season. Dennis Desrosiers would even tell you what an asinine comment that is. Marty Mornhinweg knows more about football than any Lions fan does. Therefore, he can't be criticized. You can't criticize Dave Lewis for being outcoached in the Anaheim series because he coaches in the NHL and you don't. LOL!!! BP Logic Rules Again!!!!

Voting begins soon for the BP Fox Idiotic Quote Sweepstakes!!!!

You have WAY to much free time on your hands!! I would still listen to anything BP Fox has to say instead of your "intelligent" thoughts and comments. I may be somewhat of a new fan to hockey, but most of BP's ideas and thoughts are very plausable. In fact, just wait cause I'm sure he'll make more predictions for the season. Just for the record, NO I do not know BP or any of the other posters on this board so don't think I'm being biased.

Bill - simmer down buddy!! BP is a great guy and doesn't deserve to be publicaly chastised by you! It's no fun to read these messages and watch someone tear people apart.

It's a given that we all have different opinions...however, is it necessary to point out errors or inaccurate information to make yourself look good? I think you are being a little harsh. So you disagree with BP and his facts, I guess most of us on this board aren't keeping track of the stats that closely that we feel the need to prove someone wrong. We simply enjoy reading the various opinions and I for one would obtain my own stats/facts if it mattered to me that much.

I hope you feel better now that you have vented. I know my opinion doesn't matter much but, my opinion of you is pretty poor right now. I tend to respect nice people rather thann mean and angry people.

I hope you enjoy the hockey season!

bill good points on the overagers. thornburn will be a great overager and so will Platt because there are great overages.

newfan dont worry I dont think your bias,( well maybe alittle) and at least u admit u dont know much about hockey.

Out of curiosity, can anyone refresh my memory as to what we recieved in place of Thorburn? Sorry I forgot. By the way, I may be somewhat new to hockey yet, but my family is very knowledgable about the sport so don't think that just cause I'm new means I don't know much. What I don't know, I question them about.

Bill I don't know what to say. I am trying so hard to like you but you are not making it easy. I know you try hard and I appreciate that,but you are just a little off. It is my sincere hope that with a little bit of patience and understanding I can help you see the errors of your ways.

First and formost it is obvious you don't know me. I am probably the least bitter person you will ever meet. I am very impressed that you remembered all of my quotes. I am a little disappointed, however, that you have chosen to take most of them out of context. I simply do not have the time to rehash each one of them but I hope by showing just of few of these you might just take the time to rethink your opinions.

You see Bill there is a difference between "Facts" and "Speculation". Most of things we discuss here are pure speculation. You know, just for the fun of it. You don't seem to me like you are having much fun. That's too bad. Let me give you an example of how this works. If I were to tell you 1 + 1 = 3, then I would have my facts wrong. In this case there is only one right answer. Now if I speculate that the team will trade a player and they don't it means my hunch was wrong. Not the same as getting facts wrong. Can't you see that Bill? Now let's talk for a minute about "Great Players". It would seem to me you are missing the whole point. I have set a trap for you and you fell right in. You want to put faces to my statement that there is no such thing as a great overage player. I never said anything about Chad Larose or any other player for that matter. Now if we take all of the overage players from all of them teams and look at them all together will some of them be better than others? Of course they will. How do you want to define great? If you want to just look at overage players and call the good ones great, I guess I don't have a lot of objection to that. However, that doesn't them great players overall. Great to me can be defined as "Cream of the Crop". The cream in this league leaves before their over age year. Chris Thorburn will not be a great overage player in the OHL because he won't be playing in the OHL this year. He might just be a pretty fine Rookie in Rochester. I am not going to spend a great deal of time on this because you either get it or you don't. I will leave you with this quote that you have chosen to take out of context as an example of how your bitterness has caused you to have blurred vision. This is take word for word from my May 5th post. And I quote "I must say I was very impressed witht the way Peter Flache stepped up into the leadership role mid-season, however, I can't say his game improved all that much."

And by the way Peter Flache did finish his season strong. He just did it in Greenville! One more thing before I go Bill, you need to try harder to get along with others. You will make more freinds that way. Have a great day Bill!

Bitter Person, "I have set a trap for you"....that is vintage BP. You don't try hard to like too many people who disagree with you. I couldn't be friends with you, because your hypocrisy would drive me insane. Everytime someone new comes on this board and you disagree with them or think they're somehow "uneducated" when it comes to hockey, you talk down to them like you're Obi-Wan Kenobi. It's a little embarrasssing. Someone like myself calls you on it and you get defensive.

You sound like an athlete who says something stupid and then claims the media "took it out of context" when you know I'm quoting practically verbatim.

I totally respect the opinions of every other single poster on here especially Disco Stu and Sparky, and Alan NB. They bring a solid take and don't play little games with other people. I've exposed you as, well, at least a LITTLE BIT of a fraud. Now you'll have to live with it. Don't talk down to people on here and I'll try not to embarrass you any further. Again, your reading is at a junior high level. I guess it's not fair if financial circumstance denied you a post-secondary education, but it really is something to look into if you're making a halfway decent living now...I EXPLAINED that Thorburn wouldn't be back but if he were to come back with Plymouth, he'd be set up for a "great season". Yes, as an OVERAGER! Your explanation that you were averaging out the play of all OAs to then deny that any can be "great" was and is ludicrous. BP Logic gets taken to new levels sometimes..

I would also expect Joey Tenute for Sarnia and the newly acquired Scott Sheppard for London to have big seasons as overagers. But I know you disagree given that OAs can NEVER BE GREAT!

You're the best, BP - I'm going to feel bad when I find out how old you really are and what you do for a living. It's probably too easy a target for a grown man's lack of literacy and grammar skills combined with his ability to decipher and break down logical arguments to be picked on like this.

McCartySux - you're bang on about Thorburn as well. Thanks for the comments.



"Peter Flache had a real strong finish to the season" - BP Fox

I am not sure if you ate too many paint chips as a kid or if you played too many games without a helmet, but for goodness sake, get some help. I will admit I sometimes like to get you going, but I never intended for your head to explode. You are right about one thing, I am embarrassed, for you, for your family and for anyone who knows you. Please get some help soon. I will pray for you.

Ok, I have tried to stay out of this for so long, but it's really getting stupid now.

I will have to say that bill needs to chill out. BP is harmless and 99% of BP's posts are great. I don't know what the heck this whole thread has to do with anything other than a personal attack from bill on BP, and that will not be permitted on this message board. I won't argue about it, I'll just delete it. It's gotten past the "fun jabs" point & it's taking away from intelligent hockey talk and the excitement of the upcoming season. This is the 2nd thread now with this whole topic & it's just getting old.

BTW, BP, if Thorburn doesn't have a great rookie year in the AHL does that mean you were wrong on more "facts"???

I think we are going in the wrong direction, we need to realize that we are all rooting for the same team here. It is certainly OK to have our opinions, and if other posters opinions differ from your own, at least respect them, on the board at least, noboby deserves to be berated on the board for their opinion. However, Mr.Fox, you need to read an entire post, not just part of what is posted, if your going to respond to a post, you really twisted IB40's post upside down, but I think its great that this forum exists for us to debate and share. Remember people, we are all on the same side, and Mr. BP Fox, please don't ever stop sharing your opinions with us.

I couldn't have said it better myself...especially spirit19...forgive me if I feel a need to stand up for the "little guys" who BP Fox insults. I'm moving on, but you're right, hockey season is starting and I'd rather talk hockey and this team's potential. If I happen to be in Foxy's head, then I guess it's because he knows when he's rude and condescending. As if I'm the first person to comment on it!

"Get some help" "I'll pray for you"?? I can't stomach the thought of being involved in a prayer of yours. Again, you're trying to paint me as something I'm just not. If anyone could be abnormal and maladjusted that I've seen post on here, only one person comes to mind. I'm a hockey fan who enjoys this hockey team who doesn't like to see your bullying tactics. The pot and the kettle comes to mind here....you can have the last word...I KNOW you NEED to have it. I'd rather talk about this team after they play Windsor.

did u see chad larose play at all last year. i do not see how a guy that scores 61 goals is not in the cream of the crop. Just admit u were wrong about there being no such thing as great overagers, theres been plenty of post and players proving that there are.

Also i think that flache only had one good game when he got to greenville and that was his first game there other then he didnt do much in the stats department, maybe he helped out other ways but i didnt go to any of the games so i don't know.

Bill- 1st of all. You need to quit visiting this forum. I always thought calling somebody out was grade school stuff, I guess I was wrong. Your so bitter towards BPFOX its disgusting. I am not sure why your so offended by his opinions but you really do need to knock it off. Maybe mom should take away your PC for a few days, I am sure she wouldnt want her 12yr old on the net picking fights.

Now, I hate to get into this again but....
Lets took at this statement. "If Thorburn played in the OHL this year he would be a great overager" REALLY! This proves the point. Thorburn is not playing as a overager because he is a GREAT player. He is the "cream of the crop." You guys really seem to miss the point, a overager is a 20yr old playing againest 16-19yr olds..right? Now thru a persons hockey career arent people normally a little more impressed when you say "He was a 16yr old playing againest 20yr olds" doesnt that sound better as far as skill? Now lets try this "He was a 20yr old playing againest 16yr olds." Now I really dont know about you but that doesnt sound all that impressive to me. Nobody has ever said Chad Larose (or any overager you want to say is GREAT) is not a good hockey player. There is something that held him up from being a great player, and forcing him to come back to the OHL and play againest younger players. Now, Chad Larose may have GREAT hockey skills, but does he have size. Is he the whole package scouts normally look for? I am going to guess he isnt, otherwise he wouldnt be in the OHL as a 20yr old. He would have moved up to a higher league.

Thanks so much Eyedeya for getting and expressing it in a better way than I have. It is obvious that neither Bill or McCartySux get it. Chances are they never will. Peter Flache finished his season last year with the Greenville Grrrowl. He had two goals and an assist in his 3 regular season games and added 3 more goals in 4 playoff games. Now lets see, thats 5 goals plus an assist in 7 games. If you were to project that over a 68 game season that would be equal to 48 goals & 8 assists = 56 points. Now that is against much more talented players than a 20 year old playing against youngsters. And all of this with a team he never played with before. Sounds like a pretty strong finish to me.

ok i think i understand how you guys rate the player. 16yr old can only be the great players because they play against older players. 17yr olds can only be really really good player because they play against 16yr olds. 18 and 19 yr olds can only be really good players because they play against 16 and 17yr olds, and overagers can only be good player because they play against 16,17,18, and 19 yr olds. is this what you guys are saying?

I am just asking a question, this is not i feel any kind of attack on anyone so please allow this to be posted. I am now afraid to waste my time and write a post in fear that someone will take offence to what I write and delete the post as has been threatened. If this question is offensive to anyone and it is going to be deleted from the site please let me know I will try and write so that it is more friendly. I dont know how I will do this but I will try to.

you know what go ahead and delete any of my posts. just because certain people arent in your happy little group and they are standing by their position (what ever it may be) your going to delete posts.

McCartySux I think your post deserves a response. Let me start this by saying that Chad Larose did have a great season last year. That in and by itself does not qualify him as a great player. What it really comes down to is how do we want to define greatness. It is my feeling if we lower the standard of what greatness is then we will underappreciate true greatness when it comes our way. This is a league for developing young talent and they are a joy to watch. But in the harsh real world they are here for one reason, to make the show. Any player who tells you otherwise doesn't belong here. It is really a league for 17, 18 & 19 year olds. Any team can have as many of these age players they wish, however the league limits the number of 16 year olds (underagers) and 20 year olds (overagers) any team can put on it's roster. Players become eligible for the NHL draft at age 18. This is the crop each year that have the eye of NHL scouts. When a player does not get drafted, for what ever reason, they become a free agent. The goal of all drafted players as well as the better free agents is to get a pro contract. As 19 year olds they really want to showcase their talents so they can make it to the next level after their 19 year. My point is that the great players in this league do just that. Move on to the next level never having played an overage year. Overagers as a group are, for whatever reason, players who did not make it. Does that mean they are washed up? No way. Some players develop later than others. Is it possible for them to become great NHL players someday? Sure, why not. My only point was that overage players as a group were not able to move on because of some flaw. I am sure there are many reasons for this. Perhaps Larose was passed by because he lacks the size many feel is necessary to make in the show. I really don't know. Perhaps he is a late bloomer and needed his overage year to have the breakout performance needed to get someones attention. Either way, these guys all have some flaw that kept them from moving on. I just cannot apply the title "Great" to anyone in this group. If you look back you will notice that this subject really got off point. The point I was trying to make when the whole "you can't call overagers great" debate started was that I didn't think Saginaw would spend a lot of time looking for overage talent. I think you will find the better overagers are home grown. Granted some teams load up on 19 year olds to make a run and there could some fine players available. If you think you can improve your team, make a move. But don't expect to find greatness among the players the other teams didn't want.

Eyeda,

I don't know how to comment on your point other than to disagree with it. By the way, who's more likely to be 12 years old? Someone who puts a little picture of Mike Brown with a Boston Bruins logo asking "M.A. Fleury who", or me? I'd vote for you. I'm 28, for the record.

Your Chris Thorburn example is somehow meant to prove that no overage players can be considered to be "great" or have a great season. Don't you see Geoff Platt could put up "Scoring Leader"-type numbers in an overage year? I'd call that a "great" season and given how few seasons these players have, I'd say it might qualify him as a "great" OHL player. This league, no question, is about future potential in many respect but you and BP Logic need to open up to the notion that not every 20 year old is some mediocre talent like, well, Adam Chapman!

Take Pat Peake for example. PLayed 134 games in the NHL and was cut short by injury. In his last 3 OHL seasons he scored 138 goals and had 319 points!!! His freaking number is hanging at the Whalers home arena though he played 2 years with the Ambassadors and 1 year for the Red Wings.

Answer this question....

WAS PAT PEAKE A GREAT JUNIOR HOCKEY PLAYER IN THE OHL???

If you NOW say yes, then you contradict your theory that overagers can't be called such (and I'm sure Peter Karmonos will be real embarrassed to find he retired the number of a "good" player! Better make some room for Karl Stewart and Nate Kiser then, right BP???)

If you say no, Pat Peake wasn't a great junior hockey player, then you can't claim to be able to give an opinion that could be right or wrong - it can only be the latter.

Not everything in judging sports is a matter of opinion. If you tell me the Detroit Tigers are a "good" baseball team, it MAY be your "opinion" but you'd be factually incorrect.

I'm done on this topic. No, really I am! Nice revisionist history on BP Logic's part, your original post about Flache finishing the season strong was posted BEFORE he even left for Greenville. But most people reading this have begun to realize that consistency doesn't need to be a prerequisite.

McCartysux - God bless you. It's pretty obvious unlike in many cases, this isn't your first year watching OHL hockey. I felt like Charlton Heston when he first lands on the Planet of the Apes having to deal with the sunglass-wearing fox. Perhaps he's praying for me right now.

For the record, Bill, I am not "threatening" to delete all of your posts, just the ones where you make personal attacks on people. Just keep it clean hockey chat, minus the personal slams that are in nearly every post you make, & everything will be fine. It seems like you are trying to cause trouble in most of your posts. Just leave that stuff for another board.

And BP, don't egg him on... PLEASE!!!

ok, I am just a spirit fan as well, i dont know anyone on here either. Maybe if we got to know eachother this idiotic arguing and nit picking over everyones posts and opinions would stop. Most of us come on here to talk hockey. I know we dont have to read all these idiotic posts you 2 are posting but if you can remember one thing...YOUR NOT THE ONLY 2 IN HERE !!!. One of you could be the better person and not respond to something that you might not agree with or stop correcting every misspelled word. As far as stats on everyone in the league, im sure most of us dont know the stats on them and dont really care. Its hard enough to keep all the stats on this and last years players on the spirit team. everyone has a different favorite player and all your stats dont matter. one persons idea of good is going to be different than your own. if this was my board i wouldve deleted this whole thread and any other cutting down that one person does to another. Newfan, you asked who we got in replace of thorburn, i belive it was taylor Raszka.....ok, boys. play nice...oh yeah, im not afraid of my age either, im 39..