There exists a definite threat to Hinduism in India today in the form of fundamentalist Islam, and Christianity funded by foreign countries. Politics in India has alienated the average Hindu as well. But the main threat to Hinduism lies in the fact that we have not been able to adapt ourselves to the changing needs of the day.

Instead of wasting time building temples, the RSS leadership needs to re-organize Hindus and Hinduism to the best extent possible. We need to learn where we are going wrong and correct the situation immediately.

The RSS should call for equality of all Hindus. The word CASTE should be banned. People may distinguish themselves based upon the community they belong to rather than their caste. The caste system as Hinduism originally meant it to be is not what is in practice today. If we Hindus unite, we can fight any and every threat to Hinduism.

Affirmative Action/Reservation. The RSS should lobby against reservation based upon caste. Politics in India are dividing Hindus based upon caste and creed. This is keeping the caste system alive and dividing us. The RSS should call for Affirmative action/reservation for the POOR, irrespective of caste, religion and creed. If the RSS is successful in this objective we would have many grateful poor coming back into our religion. They should be treated equally if not better if they returned to Hinduism.

It should be our good deeds and charities that bring back others back into our fold. The RSS’s objective should be to reach out to all sections of the poor irrespective of religion. We need to provide incentives (like the Christians provide free education) to those converting back to Hinduism. We need to raise funds for this purpose. The idea of donating money to the temples or to the priests is OK but Hindus should be encouraged to donate money towards charities that work for the poor, rather than to temples and priests.

RSS should have a gameplan to treat all those who choose the Hindu way of life (convert back even though there is no formal conversion in Hinduism)equally. Recently I read that the Shankaracharya os someplace or the other claimed that those who converted back to Hinduism would have to go to different temples. Now why would anybody want to convert back to Hinduism if they are going to be treated as second class Hindus??

The RSS needs to denounce militancy and violence that goes against the very nature of Hinduism. As a concerned Hindu and a Brahmin, I feel upset when Hindu's kill and hurt Dalits, lower castes and Christians. Killing is not Hinduism and we need to set ourselves apart from those who kill in the name of their religion. The RSS must lay down a punishment for those Hindus who kill or hurt others in the name of Hinduism.

Priests must be educated and licensed by the RSS. Our Brahmin priests must be educated in Vedanta and Dharma. While Hinduism is open to various interpretations and has many forms, our priests must live by a basic code of conduct that the RSS must lay down. They are ambassadors of Hinduism and hence they must be fit to spread the religion in any form that is devoid of the prejudices and problems that seems to be the order of the day.

The RSS must lay down a code of conduct for the upkeep and maintenance of temples. Our beautiful and ancient temples must be kept clean and hygienic. Has anybody ever noticed how serene and clean a church is? As a devout Hindu, I feel one with God in a Church. Most of our temples are dirty, full of garbage and filth and smell of urine. To keep our temples clean, Ritual worship must be minimized. We are desecrating our own temples today. This seems to be an issue with a lot of non-Hindu’s. They always tell us, how dirty our temples are. The Head Priest of the temple should be held responsible for the hygiene and cleanliness in his temple.

I know this may not be what the RSS wants to hear, but instead of ruining our Hindu reputation, stooping to the level of Muslims, (like breaking down mosques, resorting to violence against Christians and performing yagnas in mosques) and behaving like common criminals, it is time for the RSS to LEAD us Hindus by building up pride in Hinduism, pride in our cultural as well as religious heritage.

I agree with most of the contents of your message. Constructive action is needed, True. However, I am intrigued by the following paragraph.

"The RSS needs to denounce militancy and violence that goes against the very nature of Hinduism. As a concerned Hindu and a Brahmin, I feel upset when Hindu's kill and hurt Dalits, lower castes and Christians. Killing is not Hinduism and we need to set ourselves apart from those who kill in the name of their religion."

My first question is, how well do we all know Hinduism?
If violence went against Hinduism, then what is Ramayana and Mahabharata? Aren't both the struggles of good against evil? Don't both epics feature massive battles?

The Gandhian non-violence is a recent concept. This type of political struggle is found nowhere in Hindu mythology/history. If you find anything contrary, please share it with us.

Hindus don't kill Christians, Dalits et al in the name of religion. Hindu violence is reactive, and only used as a last resort.

Why are Congressis,followers of Mulla yadav and commies assuming that they can kill and torture, but Hindus should tolerate all of it. Why can't they for a change follow Gandhi for a while?

Anybody want to add to this?

Congratulations! It is much better!! I knew that you have emotions also besides ego. Keep it up . you will come to know everything about our problems as well as solutions since you are really very sincere.

with love and best wishes.

Jai Guru Dev

Atul

Killing a 5 year old girl for drinking water from a tap meant for upper castes is not reactionary.

Child sacrifice to appease the Goddess of Wealth is not Hinduism and is certainly not reactionary.

Killing Graham Steines and 2 little boys is not reactionary.

Dowry deaths are not Hinduism.

Now dont tell me about "education" because the some of the worst attrocities in the name of Caste are commited by wealthy educated people.

I wasnt talking about Hindu fundamentalism that is reactionary. Nor was I talking about the Gujarat retaliation. I dont agree with the retaliation, if at all it had to take place they should have killed the perpetrators in Godhra not innocent Muslims.

Killing is not the answer to our problems.

Politics are taking advantage of our fragmented, divided religion and making it worse for us. We need to initiate the changes ourselves from within

They are not holy books like the Quran and Bible. They have been interpreted as battles of the mind.

And assuming you are correct in saying that they preach violence, they should be discarded like the Manu Smriti has, as irrelevant to Hinduism today.

Hinduism is not bound to any one book or epic. The Vedas, the Gita do not preach violence.

As for self defence, you are right there is no reason why Hindus should not react in self defence, but is violence the answer? Certainly not.

Before we blame Castism in Hinduism let take stock of other religions about who we talk so great preachers of peace.

Let us be clear no society in this world has (including america) adopted to equality in reality (may be it there in law, but india too has). All structure of socities in the world are based on unequality and injustice in the name of cast (lets make this world universal)

The cast in christianity killed million in the name of cast (Protestant/catholic – let be cleat it is a cast system in xinity)

In Moslems Shiya/sunnies too have killed in millions over years.

Now talking of hinduism how many dalits have been killed in the name of cast. Certainly not in millions.

You will not find an ideal palce without castic friction in this world.

Prem

Violence is not action recommended nor desired. It’s the effect of what has been happening for last 1000 years. This is the first time Hindus have reacted. When we talk about reaction (yes it was most drastardly act) we must answer one question. Would this reaction have been there if there was no action?

The basic law is every action is followed by reaction (not necessary it is desirable or no-violent). Would this have happened if there was no carnage by Moslems.

Why the world is screeming when Hinud killed hundreds? Why there is silence when 7 lakh hindus got either displaced or killed (several thousand) in kashmir? Because we are used to it isnt' it?

The hindu reaction is effect of suppression (tolerance) of 1000 years. Before we blame Hindus for carnage the question must be directed those who perpetrated this intiation point. Burning of train.

Lets me rational. Yes killing any innocent life is inhuman act. Would it have happened if they had not burnt the train????

Before we shif blame to hindus shoudl they not do some sole searching

Prem

Thank you, however, I would be glad if you take some time and either accept my Rs. 5000 challenge, or accept the fact that Casteism has no place in Indian constitution and hence, modern India.

why don't you come to the forum of HINDUNET.COM . You will find many interesting debates over there of yr choice ,where even 50000 will be small amount . Really you will enjoy it very much.

All sort of caste based reservations are what? Earlier it was only SC/ST only for a limited time frame but now so many categories that even Dr. Ambedkar will bow his head with shame.

But kindly accept my invitation for Hindunet.com where you will see great Rishis/Pandits of Hinduism fuming with their knowledge on PURUSHA/Prakrti as well as mundane topics dear to us.

With love

Jai Guru Dev

atul

Killing innocents (whatever religion/caste they may be) is absolutely not justifiable on ANY grounds.

You are however, blowing up a few law & order issues to an everyday occurrence, and worse, blaming it on Hinduism.

But coming back, how is all this related to Hinduism?
Dowry or caste related killings are crimes just like capital murders, and are punished by law.

Your first post was really good. However, RSS isn't the one for you. Check out VHP's agenda on their website (VHP.org), your agenda has a lot common with theirs.

Finally, I must comment on:
"I dont agree with the retaliation, if at all it had to take place they should have killed the perpetrators in Godhra not innocent Muslims."

The coach of Sabarmati Express that was attacked by Muslim mob (coach S-6) was a reserved sleeper second class coach, RESERVED FOR LADIES. That is why the number of dead included 25+ women, 15+ children, and unspecified number of infants. Needless to mention, they were all unarmed. When a 2000 strong mob carrying swords, knives and molotov enters this coach, HOW ARE THESE WOMEN AND CHILDREN SUPPOSED TO RETALIATE?
What was their fault? Being Hindu?

Why are the reservations for?

they are for a particular class to imporve to the extent they become independent of reservations. IF any system/group needs reservations for ages and still does not come to be independent and insted ask for new sets of reservations, then there is some problem in the system and the group itseld.

The reservationsa are to be used to progress and not to degress others.

About goint to other group. Why do that? Let's answer here and here itself.

Atul, having view point is fine but not accepting other justified views even thought you can not give any support of what you say is the EGO mentioned in your previous reply to JB.

There is a fine difference in being EGOist and being Proud.

Ketan

Please advise us, poor Hindus, on what to do, when there's a "holocaust-in-progress" against Hindus.
You claim violence is not the answer, but what IS?

I would love to participate in about every discussion going on about India. However, a man's got to work for a living. But I'll be there over weekends.

All sorts of reservations: Originally meant for only the first 10 years 1950-60 for upliftment of the downtrodden, has unfortunately cultivated into vote bank politics. Reservations must be stopped asap. They have no place in 21st century India.
If you have merit, regardless of which caste/religion you come from, you should have a fair chance. Continuation of reservations is discriminating against the people who can't qualify, on the basis of birth into a particular caste.

I would love to participate in about every discussion going on about India. However, a man's got to work for a living. But I'll be there over weekends.

All sorts of reservations: Originally meant for only the first 10 years 1950-60 for upliftment of the downtrodden, has unfortunately cultivated into vote bank politics. Reservations must be stopped asap. They have no place in 21st century India.
If you have merit, regardless of which caste/religion you come from, you should have a fair chance. Continuation of reservations is discriminating against the people who can't qualify, on the basis of birth into a particular caste.

I know that Jay bhawani is a proud Indian. I am also proud of him.

Jeevan chalne ka naam ...chalte raho subah-o-sham...

Let's keep on moving......

I am sorry if anyone of you still have any complaints pending with me.

atul

Dear Atul,
I gave you a link to the constitution, and expected you to find portions where caste-based discrimination was endorsed. You came up with reservations, which in fact is "reverse-discrimination".

Are you unable to claim Rs. 5000 I set aside for you?

i need money badly but how can i accept it since (1)You are definitely much younger to me (2) you are Brahmin and i am a Bania. Bania can't take donations (Re; Shiladaan). He can only give.Tell me your DOB if you wish so that I may wish on yr BDs. But A Bania can easily accept the defeat to serve some noble purpose .so I am accepting total defeat. My Gurudev also taught me the same things.

Be happy and continue to learn. India need lot of youngman like you. Challenges are so many types that one can't count even.

with best wishes

atul

many well to do castes are aspiring to be declared as backwards.World is moving forward but many in India want to go backwards.Casteism is acquiring a new and dangerous dimension due to this phenomenon.States like Bihar and UP are now purely polarised on caste lines. No one can defeat Laloo in Bihar since caste combinations are favourable. UP will not have popular Govts. since caste equations have become such.

Is it democracy OR CASTE-O-CRAZY- I don't know.

While much of your arguments are irrelevant to topic in discussion, I am glad you stopped spreading misinformation about Constitution of the Republic of India.

Your deductions are at best, hilarious! And so are the reasons.

This is unbelieveable. We are not in the genocide business. There are 140 million Muslims to deal with.

Are you saying just because 58 Hindus were killed by Hindus, we should go about killing every Muslim we lay our eyes on, in India? Including those who had absolutely nothing to do with the Godhra carnage?

So what is it that makes us different from the Muslims? Did I say we turn the other cheek on the perpetrators? Cant we let the law and order machinery take care of the Muslims? The police the courts, the justice system?

Have you ever heard of converting with kindness, with compassion? What are your plans for the Muslims of India? Why not try converting them to Hinduism through the Arya Samaj? Why not give them a wonderful welcome if they converted back into our fold.

Instead people like you are ensuring that Muslims will remain Muslims, stay alienated, become more violent in future, breed more terrorists and kill more of us.

you are correct holy cow

This is incredible. Why are you justifying the Hindu genocide (not just Godhra, what about Kashmir, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Afghanistan? Have you heard of Hindu-kush mountain ranges in NE afghanistan? Do you know what "hindu-kush" means?).

So in your opinion, when faces with armed savages, Hindu men, women and children should just drop dead. And they have no moral justification to fight back to save their own lives.

Does it surprise anyone that India, Israel, Nigeria, East Timor and Balkans have seen most violence in the last 50 years, and the ONLY common thing in these? *ALL OF THEM ARE ON THE BORDERS OF ISLAMIC STATES.*

If your solution is

"Have you ever heard of converting with kindness, with compassion? What are your plans for the Muslims of India? Why not try converting them to Hinduism through the Arya Samaj? Why not give them a wonderful welcome if they converted back into our fold"

Its a wild day dream.

Before we talk of violance and laying eyes on moslems, please let us know how much of kindness has worked before AK47 in J&K?

They come in a day light and kill 11 members of hindu family including 2 month infant sporaying bullets. Will kindness work here.

Provide some valid solutions. & lakh hindus have been trhown out of J&K? what kindness is going to help. and kindness to whom?

There is no doubt ordinaty moslems should not be killed ay any cost. Violence can not be the solutions

But whom are you giving these lessons to?

1. Hindus who have sustained 1000 years of invasions, killinngs and rapes, who replied once by killing few hundred?

These world of kindness and tolerance shoudl be directed to Moslems who have been doing havoc for Hinduism. Read Koran which propogate only voilance.

We are giving lessons to that tolerant community that has sustained killings of millions at the hands of moslems?

This is ablosutely WRONG.

The answer is simple if they stop their anti national activities and stop killing people there wont be any voilence.

Please no lessons to victims. Your statements are just like our pseudo-seculars.

Prem

Are you saying Hindus should always take genocide. When they kill 500 its genocide. When Moslems kill few millions still we shoudl welcome them to kill more.

Do you know Isreals' resolve.

We shall kille 2 for every isrelies killed. Do you know what america does? kill 10 for every american killed.

See the killing is not the solution. but there that is the effect of some cause.

So your point is Cause is fine. but effect should not be there. Common you are standing on the faulty postulates of peace and kindness.

Talk clearly about the killing they are doing, give then message of kindness. If they had not killed 58, nothnig would have happened.

killing of innocents is condemnable always whether moslem or hindu.

THEY WILL NOT GET KILLED IF THEY STOP BRUTAL KILLINGS, KILLINGS AND KILLINGS!!!!

k

I guess no one of this group is saying 'They advocate killings of Muslims'

My view is they are saying it the result of the earlier killings and all the history. I do not think they are saying killings are right.

The point is (mine too) this is not going to be the trend by Hindus (like Muslims) who have known to the history as distroyers than the creators. I do not think you can ignore the history of Islam attrocities all over the world while talking about genocide by Hindus.

Thanks

I can understand if one of you said you wanted to go after the perpetrators.

But NO you guys seem to think killing innocent Muslims is OK just because they kill innocent Hindus.

Nobody is denying the attrocities on Hidnus. But vigilanteism isnt the aswer.

From your message:
"But NO you guys seem to think killing innocent Muslims is OK just because they kill innocent Hindus"

Nobody said that. Go back to all the messages in this thread and show me if ANYONE actually advocated killing.

Also, I am floored by your statement "JUST BECAUSE THEY KILL INNOCENT HINDUS". What kind of statement is this? So innocent Hindus (esp. women and children) should die, and their brothers, sons, fathers have no right to retaliate?

No one is saying innocents be killed whether hindu or muslim. Killing is crime against humanity.

When we say innocent Muslims, can you show me one statement form one of these Muslim leaders who condemned the first attack by Muslims?

Is it not their duty to dondemn the most drastrdly act of killing most mercylessly by mob of 2000 muslims. None of them comes forward and says it was an inhuman act. why? Please notesilence is concent. They justify what they did. for what?

The emotions of mob can never be calculated. Why they let this barberism unleash on hindu women, children or infants in that coach? What is your response for this inhuman act. What is solution for stopping this.

In short Muslims kill several of our brothers and we should move around spreading peace message. Wait for another such incident and we bring more peace messages.

Visit one of the children whose mother was burnt alive in one of the coaches of Sabarmati express. Tell him or her we should not react. we are killing innocent people.

they will ask one simple question - Why they killed my mom? what was her crime? she was hindu isn't it?

The reaction was an inevitable act of natural responce to the attrocities going on for hundreds of years.

Can they stop attrocities so that hindus will not react?

Prem

I think you point to some very interesting issues on which RSS should focus such as lobbying against affirmative action policies that divide hindus, educating priests with hindu philosophy and hindu mythology, maintaining clean temples, etc. On the other hand I strongly disagree with your statements on hindus exercising restraint on violence and stop "stooping" muslims or destroying muslim mosques.

First let me begin with addressing your non-violence issue. I think there is a BIG difference between uncontrolled violence and a fight for justice. A common hindu today has become unbearably tolerant and moot under the pretense of non-violence. As a result of which, we are not able to protect our very own religion and culture from these aggressive religions such as Islam and Christianity to some extent. This according to me is not non-violence but a mere sign of lack of courage and oblivion. We as Hindus need to learn the difference between these two.

Now coming to your point of "stooping" the muslims. I think that is an in-correct observation that you've got. I think the fact is quite the contrary in the sense that it is hindus who are being stooped by muslims and other religions. We are being stooped to an extent that we are on the verge of collapsing due to the lack of balance. It is high time for us to apply all our energy and get back on our feets, straight. Muslims destroying our temple and not letting us build a temple in our own country is considered them stooping us and not reverse; no muslim leader condemning godhra massacre is considered as them stooping us, muslims killing hindus in J&K is considered them stooping us, muslims and christians forcibly converting hindu adivasis is them stooping us,... and I can go on like this forever.

I think the bottom line for us, the Hindus, is to realize the fact that we have been enough tolerant under the pretext of non-violence and such Bulls***, but now we HAVE to treat attacks such as the ones on our parliament, godhra train, J&K assembly et al as a WAKE UP CALL and have to start retaliating against them just like israelis do. For every 1 israeli killed, they kill 5 palestinians. Israel should be our role model. For every 1 hindu killed we should kill 5 muslims (and that way we can reduce their overbloating population) and that is how they would learn not to mess with us.

Rageshwari.

The discussion on this page seems to be about only one thing - taking the law into one's own hand and, therefore, destroying the very fabric of Indian administration, judiciary and law and order.

It is claimed that some Muslims killed some innocent Hindus in the Godhra train incident. So instead of handing over the matter to the legal system of India to find the perpetrators and punish them according to the Indian legal system, the claim appears to be that every "Hindu" should have the right to kill whoever "they" think was responsible for that massacre.

No investigation, no proof of guilt, just plain rule of the mob.

It is irrelevant who condemns such incidents in public or private.

That is irrelevant in a legal system as what is required proof and punishment according to the rule of law.

Or is this is what you want India to be?

Mob rule.

Do you want the "Bal Thackeray's" to call out their hoodlums whenever something THEY do not like happens somewhere - as digging up cricket pitches or destroying cinema theatres.

Because that is what it appears to me to be.

Then the suicide bombers of Palestinians, the 19 terrorists who smashed into the twin towers on September 11th, the killing of innocents by American bombers in Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan, or the killing of any Hindu, Christian or Muslim in India by anyone else is totally valid - as the Chief Minister of Gujarat so clearly made public - every action has a reaction - so it is never ending process of violence and destruction by MOB rule.

Kill one innocent Hindu - so mobs should kill dozens of innocent Muslims and Christians. Kill one innocent Mulsim and so mobs should kill dozens of innocent Hindus and Christians, and so on!!

The mindless statement by a Chief Minister shows his incompetence for the post he was elected to as he could not provide a rule of law and order in his state and went by the encouraging law of the jungle. And the failure of Prime Minister Vajpayee to condemn Modi makes him a partner and party to this rule of the jungle.

Who gives whom the right to kill whom - a political leader, a religious leader, any Sushil, or Ahmed, George - whoever is on the street who happens to see someone doing something which he does not like.

Many in the world are fighting against even the inhuman the death penalty itself - and here what is being promoted is the rule of the jungle - kill anyone who does not see life the same way that you do!!

Two wrongs do not ever make a right.

So if you are sincere about being a good Indian or a good world citizen, then make sure everyone wants to live in the India or world of your dreams by making it a country or place where there is no corruption, no religious factions, no hatred to others dissimilar to yourself - and let people live their religious lives according to the dictates oif their personal hearts.

Religion is something one feels from within and something not imposed by corrupt priests, clergy, swamis, yogis and corrupt politicians.

When the "militant Hindu" starts schools, hospitals and do charitable works, then people will embrace that good and in their hearts become Hindus.

If not, let us be clear - these militants are not "Hindus" but the riff raff who are being controlled by smart and corrupt politicians whose only self interest is their own power base of mindless people who become easily manipulated by their strong speeches and political ploys.

Sushil

First, I decided to ignore this message after seeing this statement.
"It is claimed that some Muslims killed some innocent Hindus in the Godhra train incident"

What claimed? Show me ONE link/news report suggesting otherwise. It was a 2000 strong Muslim mob that deliberately attacked the coach reserved for LADIES, hence the number of high women/children/infant casualties. Needless to say, all these women and babies were unarmed and innocent.

Now about rest of the message. Yes, I agree with most of the analysis, but it's time for you to wake up!

Do you know where Hindu-Kush mountains are? Any idea what Hindu-kush means? And who was responsible for that "kush"?

Have you heard of Shah-bano case? Does that give you any idea how the legal system works/gets overridden in India?

I am sick of your type, blaming the Hindu victims for violence specifically and deliberately targeted at them.

You sure have a utopian vision about India, we all do, but unfortunately, that's not the reality.

It's every Hindu's wish to live peacefully and harmoniously with everyone else. But can the same be said about other communities?

>First, I decided to ignore this message
> after seeing this statement.
>"It is claimed that some Muslims killed some
>innocent Hindus in the Godhra train
>incident"

That is for a commission of enquiry to establish. If you make the conclusion then you are the judge and the jury - that is why I specifically used the word claimed!

I am not basing my actions on newspaper reports of any complexion. I do not trust any journalists - especialy those who want sensational headlines.

>What claimed? Show me ONE link/news report
>suggesting otherwise. It was a 2000 strong
>Muslim mob that deliberately attacked the coach
>reserved for LADIES, hence the number of high
>women/children/infant casualties. Needless to
>say, all these women and babies were unarmed
>and innocent.

So let these facts be established according to law. You are not the judge and neither am I and there may be many complexions to the same story. That is why there are commissions of enquiry.

> Now about rest of the message. Yes, I agree
>with most of the analysis, but it's time for you to
>wake up!

Actually it is time for me to go to sleep - 6 feet under or up in flames - my dear correspondent. I am old enough to be your great grandfather!!

>Do you know where Hindu-Kush mountains are?

Yes, and I have actually been there.

> Any idea what Hindu-kush means?

Just so happens that I do!!

> And who was responsible for that "kush"?

And whose version do you want - British historians, Arayan invasion theory historians, so-called "Hinduvata" historians, or Dravidian historians.

The story changes complexion with whose version YOU want to hear.

Just so happens I do not want to believe Minister Arun Shourie's perverted version of any historical analysis - for your kind information he was my hockey captain in a mission college in 1960, an institution at which he enjoyed getting his advanced education and which he now wants destroyed!!

Ever heard of the word "chameleon"?

>Have you heard of Shah-bano case? Does that
>give you any idea how the legal system works/
>gets overridden in India?

I do happen to know the ridiculousness of Rajiv Gandhi's decision in what was a case decided by the Supreme Court of India. So why blame all Indian Muslims for the foolishness of a stupid Prime Minister of India.

And it is a Constitution of India which gave the rights for Muslims and Hindus to have their own codes - so why blame members of the community for the mistakes of their "educated politicians".

So the legal system, according to you, does not work in India - so you and every other person is allowed to take the law into their own hands.

Fine logic, my dear Jay.

>I am sick of your type, blaming the Hindu victims
> for violence specifically and deliberately targeted
>at them.

I think you better get used to a lot of my type as you will meet all types along your road of life.

Next, where did I blame any Hindus. My contention was that no-one should be allowed to take the law into their own hands - Hindus, Christians or Muslims; Sikhs, Tamils, Kannadigas, Maharastrians, or anyone else.

I think you need to have your glasses cleaned .

>You sure have a utopian vision about India,
>we all do, but unfortunately, that's not the reality.

What is utopia - a corrupt system of Government, a corrupt legal system, a corrupt people - and you call that utoipia!!

I do happen to know reality a little better than you having dealt with a series of corrupt governments, bureaucrats, law enforcers and judiciary during my time in India. But that still does not give me permission to take the law into my own hands - or does it - should I go and kill anyone who happened to make a decision against me based on their corrupt morals.

>It's every Hindu's wish to live peacefully and
>harmoniously with everyone else. But can the
>same be said about other communities?

It is the wish of every community to live peacefully - not just Hindus.

If one wants to live peacefully, then you and everyone has to abide by the law and have a strong law enforcing body and an honest judiciary. Every single politician, political party in India is corrupt to the core.

Nobody cares about India - only about lining their own pockets.

What an outstanding country where Indira Gandhi imposes Emergency Rule, Sanjay Gandhi works as an unelected king, Jayalalitha gets re-elected, and Vajpayee cannot say boo to a Gujarat Chief Minister who says every action has a reaction and poromotes illegal codes of conduct by its citizens.

Wake up yourself - I would say. I will soon be entering the land of Nod and I wish for your sake you do wake up to reality.

Sushil

See how many roles you played in just one message?

1. The contradictor
In the first part of your pose, you seem to have excessive confidence in "commissions of enquiry" et al, as in
"You are not the judge and neither am I and there may be many complexions to the same story. That is why there are commissions of enquiry."

Last few paragraphs though, you present exact opposite viewpoint, as in:
"a corrupt system of Government, a corrupt legal system, a corrupt people"

That's why, I don't know whether to agree or disagree with you.

2. The slippery eel
You said you know what Hindu-kush means. (Even been there, although that's irrelevant) You know why I mentioned that. But you managed to slip away without answering even what it means.
By the way, the "kush" continues even today.
See: Terrorists kill 7 Hindus http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/080402/dlnat30.asp

3. The Spin doctor
"And whose version do you want - British historians, Arayan invasion theory historians, so-called "Hinduvata" historians, or Dravidian historians. "

Whatever you believe in. But is that really the point? The arabic word "kush" (as in khud-kushi) is well known, and I will be happy to provide you with resources, if you need them.
I'm still interested in hearing the versions of ALL the historians you mentioned.

4. The know-it-all
"I do happen to know reality a little better than you"
Well, maybe you do, but how's that helping this discussion?

5. The denialist
"It is the wish of every community to live peacefully - not just Hindus."
All Hindus would like to live in peace, at any price including Pakistan, Bangladesh, POK, COK and so on.
Pan-islamists (most conspicuously, Pakistanis) want India under green flag as soon as possible, Communists: same with red flag, and so on.

6. Last but not the least The Grandfather
"I am old enough to be your great grandfather!!"
This takes the cake. Now, I respect your age/experience/viewpoints and all but:
First, how is age relevant to this discussion?
Second, what made you guess my age? Without setting up a commission to review your and my birth certificates? (Oh wait, birth registration was made mandatory only in 1970, so can't prove that)
Third, does old age automatically grant you "the morally right" view, or intelligence?
Here's a line from Einstein's biography: "The most profound breakthroughs came during the beginning of Einstein's career. But in later years, his problem solving dropped off."
Take a look at others like Newton (you quoted his third law of motion.) or Edison, same story.

Final word: Let Hindus live peacefully in their own country. That's all we ask. The country has already been partitioned into three, if people are not happy, they are free to leave. But please, no suicide bombings, burning trains, blowing up stock exchanges etc.
We are willing to live in harmony with everyone, but as long as their motto for us remains "convert or die", the clash of civilizations is imminent.

To Sushil: I don't like engaging in personal mud-slinging, so this is the last post with so many "you's" and "I's" in it. No more.

Just one thing about Hindu Kush - which is the noun and which is the adjective.

I think that would explain why two words kept together can have literally tens of meanings. You may choose to have Hindu as the noun, while others may have to use it as the adjective.

Get my point.

From the tone of your writing - as I have been an analyst in communications for many many years, I could possibly pinpoint your age, background and experience to probably 3 years and to within 100 miles to where you spent your formative years.

But as you say - that is irrelevant to the discussion and as you do not want to discuss the land of contradictions.

I will write no more.

Been nice knowing you.

Sushil

>Just one thing about Hindu Kush - which is the noun and which is the adjective.

>I think that would explain why two words kept together can have literally tens of meanings. You may choose to have Hindu as the noun, while others may have to use it as the adjective.

All right, that much spin is enough

Take a look: Hindu Kush means Hindu Slaughter
http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/modern/hindu_kush.html

Excerpt:
It is evident that Hindus from ancient India's (Hindustan's) border states such as Gandhaar and Vaahic Pradesh were massacred or taken as slaves by the Moslem invaders who named the region as Hindu Kush (or Hindu Slaughter,or Hindu Killer) to teach a lesson to the future Hindu generations of India. Unfortunately Hindus are not aware of this tragic history. The Indian government does not want the true history of Hindu Moslem conflicts during the medieval ages to be taught in schools. This policy of negationism is the cause behind the ignorance of Hindus about the Hindu Kush and the Hindu genocide.