This site is attempting to WARN others about what is happening in Churches across the world, in regards to their takeover by the "Holy Entertainment" movement.

If you are a present or past member of a Church experiencing these problems, please take a minute to tell others about your experience. We all must learn about how these things can happen.

Start with the earliest signs, and the events that followed.

Thanks

This forum has been edited by a moderator at ConcernedMembers.com
that logged in from one of the below forums. These forums are not part of, approved by or affiliated with any Church.

Earlier in January, 2002, I posted a note expressing interest in this site. Permit me a bit of further introduction. I was raised in the Church of Christ in Nashville, TN, became a member of a COC there and graduated from David Lipscomb College in 1971. During my years in medical school, residency training and later practice, I lost contact with going to church. I am now a retired physician.

Four years ago I took a post as Organist for a Baptist church in Nashville, feeling that I could handle the "few doctrinal differences." Two years ago, the relatively young pastor introduced a "praise team" into what had originally been a "traditional" church of its type with organ, piano, and choir as the principal sources of music. This praise team now consists of several younger singers and musicians who play a variety of instruments and drums. The songs are often loud, upbeat, contemporary numbers, many of which are indistinguishable from those heard at secular rock concerts, except for the use of "Christian" lyrics. Other soloists and ensemble groups at this church more frequently use tapes and CDs as their accompaniment, because they want the "big orchestral sound" backing them up. Some of these groups are semi-professional, having either made a few marketable CDs or are attempting to. While there are still a few traditional hymns sung with "traditional" instruments, it is clear that the contemporary is nudging out the traditional, and "entertainment" is a prominent feature.

Although the pastor would deny the designation "entertainment," he boasts about the beauty of the now "diverse" worship styles within the same service. Yet the sudden introduction of a rock band into a church, whose membership is roughly 50% senior adults, has created considerable controversey. The pastor, however, would that anyone objecting to the changes remain quiet or leave the congregation.

So I resigned as Organist earlier this month and left this church. In my resignation letter, I severely criticized "praise music" as nothing but entertainment and stated that I was looking for a more mature worship environment. The pastor, incensed at such criticism, replied that it was I who was immature, because I could not accept "diversity" in worship.

Although I do not subscribe to Rick Warren's market-driven methods for church growth, he makes a good point in his book "The Purpose Driven Church." He clearly warns against introducing radical or diverse worship styles in an established traditional church, unless everyone is willing to accept the resistance and conflict that would certainly arise. Any changes in the way we "do church" should be implemented when a church is first built.

Therefore it is wrong and selfish for a group of people to charge into an established church with its established doctrine and deliberately initiate change simply to make church more attractive. Such people should start their own church, not disrupt and create havoc within an old and respected congregation such as Madison Church of Christ. The established membership should cast out such interlopers.

Perhaps the blessing out of the turmoil you wrote about here will be that you return to regularly worshipping with a church of Christ.

Janine, why should he? As outlined on this website, we have problems of our own. Most of our problems are from people still living in the '50s, who can't wake up and "smell the coffee". Why IN THE WORLD is it so important to you that he "comes back" to a CofC? Many other Churches are doing MUCH better than we are regarding solving INTERNAL struggles and back biters. If it were not for my wife and kids I WOULD LEAVE RIGHT NOW. We don't have it "right" like some here would have you believe. We are just as silf-righteous as the Pharasees, and we all know what Jesus thought of them..........makes me a little scared.

<")))><

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Update from Sheva Church of Christ, in Virginia
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 17:23:12 -0400
nnis Carter" <dennisc@gamewood.net>
Reply-To: "Dennis Carter" <dennisc@gamewood.net>


Greetings in Christ,

It has been some weeks since we last spoke, so I will update you on the situation here. I am happy to say that we may be the among the first Churches to defeat an attempted coup by the forces of the community church movement!

Under some pressure from members of our congregation,our minister of 4 plus years has resigned, rather than face a vote of confidence that he acknowledged he could not win. This angered his close supporters, who have split from us, forming a "church" of their own. They meet in
the home of a former elder. In all we have lost four elders and one deacon, their families and some and some 30 members; all supporters of the minister and his agenda.

This has obviously had a major impact on our congregation of 150 (pre-split). Life-long friends and family members are divided over this.

We are picking up the pieces, and moving forward, standing firmly on the Word of God.

There are some factors that have contributed to our victory. First is the fact that our Church Founders established an election process by which the congregation selects and each two years, affirms all elders, deacons, and the minister. Without this we would have been powerless to resist the ccm takeover attempt.

I must admit that I have had a change of heart about the election of officers here. From his arrival, our former minister assailed this "democratic" method of selecting elders as unscriptural. For a while he had me convinced. I now believe that there must be some kind of accountability on the part of our church leaders. Also, election is not unscriptural, as it was the method used to choose the replacement for Judas Iscariot in Acts chapter 1.

The second, and of equal importance, was the information made available to us by you folks at Madison Church. We had no earthly idea of the existence of the ccm, its tactics or its methods. You educated and informed us. Its much more difficult to fool people if they know what to look out for. We are forever in debt to you for this.

Right now we have an interim preacher, who is strong on the Word, as written, and has no tolerance for those who (in his words) "take liberties" with it. We are searching for a new minister who will preach and teach traditional, restoration movement, New Testament doctrine; and is comfortable with a more "traditional" worship service.

Please forward this to your fellows there, and be sure we thank God for you and your ministry of information. You really made a difference here.

I pray for you as your struggle continues there.

I welcome anyone who would like to correspond further to contact me.

a grateful brother,

Dennis Carter

Sheva Church of Christ
4920 Chalk Level Road
Chatham, VA 24531

Yes,

many of the traditionalist have left the church where I attend and have moved about five miles away and started a new church. (This happened about 5 years ago). Since then the church has been moving to present the gospel in a way that is both Biblically sound and culturally relevant. And we are growing - not only in numbers, but also in spritual depth as people sense the love and grace of God.

Praise be to God.

Spurly

Kevin.

Yes Indeed. Praise God for His blessing on your church. It is amazing what God can do when the traditionalist sectarian element leaves a church. His blessing is released and His true purpose for the body of Christ can be realized. I am so happy to hear of the blessing He is giving your church. May many people come to know the loving power of Christ through your transparency.

Grace and Peace.

Jeff

Kevin, the ULTIMATE LIE is to accuse the church of Christ as being TRADITIONALISTS as a curse word which approaches calling them RACA. That is the product of "slinking away" preachers who have INFILTRATED AND DIVERTED. For instance, their TWO major HATE THEMES is "instrumental music" and "baptism." The church of Christ has remained faithful to both in small groups down through history. Both are clear Biblical teachings. Therefore, those who cannot preach a sermon without some RACA word couched by "traditional church of Christ" views are AGENTS OF HATE. If they look "super slick" and appeal to both sexes, I would run.

Postmodernism believes that the Bible is no longer the standard but also believes that lying, cheating, stealing, infiltrating and diverting is the singy-clappy "christian thing to do." Therefore, you can gloat over STEALING the church houses of widows. I just love to watch law enforcement people at work because the CRIMINAL cannot resist boasting of his/her crime.

However, those who believe the Bible remember a passage which teaches us to hold the TRADITIONS which have been taught and not the traditions of the PHARISEES (professionals):

To the Thessalonians Paul defines the process of God POKING OUT THE EYES and plugging the EARS with garbage:

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the SPIRIT of his MOUTH (the Word will judge you), and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: (Abaddon or Apollyon is Apollo: the chief founder of Seeker Center at Delphi)
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all POWER and SIGNS and LYING wonders,
10 And with all DECEIVABLENESS of unrighteousness in them that PERISH; because they received not the love of the truth, that they MIGHT BE SAVED.
11 And for this cause God shall send them STRONG DELUSION, that they should believe a lie:
===========[The strong "deluder" is the "wandering stars" of the book of Enoch and Jude who seduced the faithful with sex and music and the arts: Enoch and Jude claim that God will come with ten thousands of his saints to get YOU.}=======
12 That they all might be DAMNED who believed not the truth, but had PLEASURE in UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. [Stealing and discording and taking pleasure is a MARK I wouldn't want to boast about]
13 BUT we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chose you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and BELIEF of the TRUTH:

============[There is a PREDESTINATION between the ancient fallen angels of whom the clergy opposing Jesus were sons, and those who are MARKED because they love the TRUTH. The gospel is too simple for the Fallen Angels and is therefore perfect for calling the TRUTH LOVERS and, as did Jesus, BLIND the eyes of the Jewish clergy by speaking in parables. So, you see, you HAVE NO choice in being an unbeliever.]=========

14 Whereunto he CALLED you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 Therefore, brethren, STAND FAST, and hold the TRADITIONS which ye have been taught, whether by WORD, or our EPISTLE.

Don't gloat in stealing the church house of widows: it is a burnable, consumable and you cannot take it into the Spirit dimension. I believe that the LOCUSTS who have recently hatched out are SEPARATING those who are MARKED with truth loving from those who are MARKED by rejoicing in stealing. That truth-hating "groaning" inside is the SPIRIT allright, but not A holy spirit.
===========================================

I have looked for some word powerful enough to communicate God's "sick at the stomach" feeling as He pukes out "those who speak of their own" who Scripture classes as another SPECIES condemned from the beginning and who sin of seducing people away from God's Word with music and sexual perversion (Yes, the teams are USED to seduce tithers). I'm getting spooky but I just accidentally found a sermon by Charles Spurgeon:

"I am told that many in the Church of England preach against her own teaching. I know they do, and herein I rejoice in their enlightenment, but I question, gravely question, their morality.

"To take oath that I sincerely assent and consent to a doctrine which I do not believe would to my conscience appear little short of PERJURY, if not absolute, downright perjury; but those who do so must be judged by their Lord.

"For me to take money for defending what I do not believe--for me to take the money of a church, and then to PREACH AGAINST what are most evidently its doctrines--I say for me to do this (I shall not judge the peculiar views of other men), for me or for any other simple, honest man to do so, would be an ATROCITY so great that, if I had perpetrated the deed, I should consider myself out of the PALE [boundaries] of TRUTHFULNESS, HONESTY, and common MORALITY.

"Sirs, when I accepted the office of minister of this congregation, I looked to see what were your articles of faith. If I had not believed them I should not have accepted your call; and when I change my opinions, rest assured that, as an HONEST MAN, I shall resign the office; for how could I profess one thing in your declaration of faith, and quite another thing in my own preaching? Would I accept your pay, and then stand up every Sunday and talk against the doctrines of your standards?

"For clergymen to swear or say they give their solemn assent and consent to what they do not believe is one of the GROSSEST pieces of immorality perpetrated in England, and is most pestilential in its influence since it directly teaches men to LIE whenever it seems necessary to do so in order to get a living or increase their supposed usefulness. It is in fact an open testimony from priestly lips, that at least in ecclesiastical matters, falsehood may express truth, and truth itself is a mere unimportant non-entity.

"I know of nothing more calculated to DEBAUCH the public mind than a lack of straightforwardness in ministers; and when worldly men hear ministers denouncing the very things which their own Prayer Book teaches, they imagine that WORDS HAVE NO meaning among church men; and that vital differences in religion are merely a tweedle-dee and tweedle-dum [totally unimportant things], and that it does not much matter what a man does believe so long as he is charitable towards other people."
=========================

Spurley, lying, cheating, stealing and sowing discord is NOT covered by the gospel of grace. I am told that the ANCIENT SPECIES has a secret MARK: they cannot blush and the posts make me wonder. I am not kidding you, I have collected exactly 3 DOZEN ancient documents all of which agree with the Bible that music is the MARK of those who try to silence the WORDS of God Who supplied OUR traditions. Since the OLD TRADITION in Psalm 18 says that the end-time WORSHIP CENTERS will worship the Mother Goddess (Zoe, the Beast) or Babylonian Whore, I get a warm, glowing feeling that it is about OVER.

Your traditions first rose its head as the "musical enchanter" who WHOLLY SEDUCED Eve while Adam went willingly. Popularity of a NEW WORLD ORDER church is absolute proof that you are the collection and transportation points for broken and lost spirits.

Ken Sublett

Meant to type REVELATION 18

You might read Psalm 18 to see what David thought of himself. Anyway, it is a good ending to my notes.

Ken Sublett

Couldn't you find enough Scripture to back up your position?

Heck, why not use Billy Sunday.

I notice YOU don't quote any Scripture, Janine. Careful or someone might think you're a troll

Kevin

Honey, I don't come here often; the people who run this site seem demon-possessed to me.

But, I'm glad I 'stopped by' today, good to 'see' you. Thanks for shining in the dark.

There was no "vote", there was a casting of lots. In other words, names were thrown into a "hat" and after praying a name was pulled. The idea being that God himself would select the individual.

Further, where in scripture do we read of a congregation selecting elders? No where. All elders in scripture were selected by apostles or someone appointed to the job by an apostle.

The Church is crumbling because of weak leadership. I can find liers, thieves, rumor monger, adulterers, etc. in any COC leadership position. When the leadership can't stand the whole will fail.

We need to read the Word for ourselves and know for ourselves what it says. Too many people let "others" do their thinking for them and unfortunately it's those mentioned in the previous paragraph that are allowed to control us.

Jesus made us FREE, not slaves to anyone.

WE have helped people violate the demand that an EVANGELIST had a GO button and he went out rounding up his own flock. And the SHEPHERD did the same thing. As often noted, a HIRELING is someone other than the SHEPHERD who built his own flock, lamb by lamb, and knew that his duty was to FEED the sheep and not force the sheep to FEED HIM. The product of the SHEEP is wool and not meat that the shepherds can knaw off the bones (Ezekiel 34).

Lenski puts the message of Paul in a few words to show that the elders were pointed out or recognized "because they were already laboring to the point of exhaustion in preaching and teaching." I have never known one of those: the ones who do that are not good politicians.

However, a shepherd teaches his little flock and guards against wolves (dressed as lambs). When he decides that a shepherd must rebuild a tower of Babylon then he is almost forced to HIRE the wolf who knows how to attract stray lambs. Doesn't a SEEKER CENTER automatically invite in the wolves?

It is a fact that elders are self-selected by politics or peer selected and is as "apt to chase coons as apt to teach." The fact also is that with a GO button and a LARGER FLOCK of about 5 billion to grow into 9 billions in the lifetime of the preachers fighting over bones, anyone can do the job and not "pray" that a mountain (self-elevating little hills lusting to become big mountains) fall on us to keep us out of God's presence.

If one is not a NUMBERS COUNTER it is possible to teach the truth (we all do it as we see it) and warn against the commercial institutions it is possible to do some good.

"Filled with the Spirit" for the "deacons" in Jerusalem is defined by Paul as "holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience." A cursed pyramidal ministry system also demands that an accountant is recognized as haveing command authority.

Ken Sublett

If you believe that only apostles have the authority to appoint elders, then why are we given such a specific description of the qualifications that an elder must meet? If the elders were only going to be for the first century churches, then wouldn't it be pointless to describe what they do in such detail? We are supposed to have a plurality of elders, I'm sorry you don't understand that.

Side note, nothing to do with his church troubles (I hope)... but "Sheva" or "Shiva" is a Hindu Goddess. Interesting name for a church of Christ.

Can anyone help me here? I have read some where that Saddleback and Willow creek have roots and ties to Germany. Can anyone help me establish this as a fact?

Thank you
Joe

The latest information I have is that the Germans see Willow Creek just like Naziism and want no part of any form of para-military like group

http://www.piney.com/WinWill2.html

Ken

What is your source concerning the German view on U.S. churchs?
John

My links from--

http://www.piney.com/WinWill2.html

--Have been updated at Christianity Today. Old stuff is archieved but you have to join and probably pay. The German branch of Willow Creek is still all over the internet but all in languages. I find stuff mentioning Eggers and Douglas but cannot read the rest. I have posted an e-mail request for a copy of the original. I find the statements about "loads of strife" posted by others but they don't quote the source either.

Willow Creek was well documented at the time but old Ricky Warren STOLE the show and it is now Purpose Driven. I suspect that the suspicions go away in the midst of the fun and games of doing worship. As far as I can determine, the first melodian was introduced with strife to help a black AME church pay off the huge debt: when everyone saw how it WORKED the opposition went away.

I will keep looking, Ken

Here is the response to my e-mail detailing this article and the specific names of those who warned but have now become leaders:

"...unfortunately we don´t have the article that you refered to. Of course: this article dates back many many years. A lot of great things have happend since then due to Willow. In fact, this February we have the Leadership Summit from Willow over here. 11.000 folks have registered already for that. That so many pastors and church leaders come together to learn about biblical leadership in the church, is staggering for us."

Gotthard Westhoff
Willow Creek Germany

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Kenneth Sublett [ksublett@piney.com]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 4. Januar 2005 05:09
An: info@willowcreek.de
Betreff: Christianity Today Article

Of course, as in most of these organizations, the strife ceases when the strifers are forced out. The posted information makes it clear that the Bill Heibels scheme went fatally wrong and cooler heads had to take over. The popularity, as you will note, is among those who want to be leaders: this means leaders of mega churches which become commercial institutions for the benefit of the STAFF INFECTION of men identified by Paul as "robbers" and by all of the Greek literature as parasites.

The link I gave you was for the article which "dates back many many years." The link, has in fact, been sanitized with a revised article. I will see whether Christianity Today will unveil the original article. By now Willow Creek, like Saddleback, is big enough to "influence" magazines who want to be endorsed. You will have noticed that The Christian Chronicle which used to publish "church of Christ" news is highly addictive and promotive of the radicalization of the church of Christ.

Here is some good data by a very touchy lady professor:

Laura Kaczorowski
http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/willow.html
http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/superch.html
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2000/013/1.48.html
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2000/013/5.62.html

Ken Sublett