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FORUM HALL - Defending The King James Bible

August 20 2002 at 6:53 PM
ConcernedMembers 
from IP address 65.80.188.46

Charges Against The King James Bible - Are They True Or Are They False?
We are going to present those charges here for your determination. Before
you begin, please read;


Some Call It Heresy - Defending The King James Bible


After reading the charges and the defense, study the links and then, click
on the vote button to register your opinion. Thank You


Let Me Know When New Charges Are Added





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This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 65.80.181.238 on Nov 27, 2002 5:55 PM


 
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ConcernedMembers

65.80.188.46

THE CHARGE: ...."Easter (Acts 12:4) should be Passover"

August 24 2002, 11:41 AM 

THIS WEB SITE:
http://www.gcmagazine.net/bibletranslations.html
CHARGES: "Easter (Acts 12:4) should be Passover"

(KJV) Acts 12:4 And when he had apprehended him, he put [him] in prison, and delivered [him] to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people.

THE DEFENSE: Passover and Easter were two different events during this time. Obviously the KJV translators knew when Passover and Easter occured, because they had translated the word Passover some 28 different times in the New Testament.

This time though, they chose Easter!

It should NOT be translated "passover" because the Passover had already passed. The "days of unleavened bread" had already begun (vs. 3), which means the Passover was over (Num. 28:16-18; Exo. 12:13-18). The Passover was always the fourteenth day of the first month, while the days of unleavened bread ran from the fifteenth through the twenty-first. Herod could not have been waiting for the Passover. Besides, why would a Gentile king like Herod be concerned about a Jewish feast day? "Easter" is from the pagan "Ishtar", the goddess that the pagans worshipped--Rome included. Herod wanted to wait until his pagan holiday was over before bringing Peter out to the people.

Reference Links;
http://home.sprynet.com/~eastwood01/kjv06.htm

Vote: Is The Charge True? Or Is It False?
http://www.concernedmembers.com/knowyourbible3.htm#20020822

This forum has been edited by a moderator at ConcernedMembers.com
that logged in from one of the below forums. These forums are not part
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This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 65.80.181.238 on Nov 27, 2002 6:00 PM


 
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Anonymous

69.153.226.56

Passover vs. "Easter" (pascha)

December 28 2011, 2:42 PM 

Prior to ANY English translation, the term "pascha", actually a Hebrew term with no Greek equivalent consistently was understood in the literal sense - "Passover". Easter was a contrived English term that came about centuries after the New Testament was written and widely distributed.


 
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ConcernedMembers

65.80.188.46

THE CHARGE: The Use of Thee and Thou Is Outdated

August 26 2002, 5:09 PM 

20020826



This Web Site: http://www.gcmagazine.net/kjvvsmodern.html

Charges The King James Bible;

"Are we so arrogant as to put an outdated language in a position of seeking the lost? Today, I know of too many preachers who read from the King James Version exclusively while in the pulpit."

"I am not saying that it would be sinful to pray using "Thee and Thou," but I cannot see a purpose for it."


The Charge Is False:

"Some readers object to the KJV's use of archaic words like thee, thou, thine, and ye. However, these words were used [even after they had begun to cease from English conversational use,] to convey the singularity or plurality of the person[s] addressed. This is conveyed in the Greek and Hebrew, but is not possible using only the common English pronouns "you" or "your". When Jesus said to the Pharisees in John 8:44, "ye are of your father the devil " we know from the KJV that he was speaking to the entire group, not just one individual. Similarly, in the KJV the singular terms the and thou means 'you alone,' and thine means 'yours alone [for Thine is the kingdom" - Matt. 6:13.]"

Study Links;
http://www.patriotist.com/rparch/rp20011119.htm
http://www.concernedmembers.com/spiritualdeception2.htm#19


Vote: Are The Charges True or Are They False?

http://www.concernedmembers.com/knowyourbible3.htm#20020826

 
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ConcernedMembers

65.80.188.46

THE CHARGE: Translated From A Few Late And Inadequate Manuscripts

August 26 2002, 5:28 PM 

20020827


The Charge From This Web Site: http://www.gcmagazine.net/bibletranslations.html

"It should be noted that the KJV translators had access to only a few late and somewhat inadequate manuscripts. Manuscripts of the Greek text had undergone several changes and contained several additions and variations by the Middle Ages."

The Charge Is False:

"The critical difference between the King James Bible and the modern perversions is in the Greek text they were translated from. The KJ was translated from the Received Text or Textus Receptus [TR,] which was compiled and printed in Greek by Erasmus in 1516 from the majority of Greek texts available; hence the alternate term Majority Text. The reliability of this text is based on the premise that as New Testament manuscripts were copied by hand and spread throughout Asia Minor and Europe from the 1st Century AD, the majority of copies would be reliable and errors would only occur in very few of the copies. [This is a good place to add that the translators of the King James Bible were so meticulous in their task, that a single misspelled word or error of any kind resulted in a complete re-write of the affected page. The writer destroyed the corrupted page, bathed, changed clothes and prayed for several hours before returning to work.] Where the KJ differs from the modern perversions, the KJ?s readings are confirmed by thousands of scriptural quotes from the writings of early Church fathers; such as Tertullian, Hippolytus, Irenaeus and Justin Martyr, dating back to the 1st century and the early church at Antioch."

Study Links;
http://www.patriotist.com/rparch/rp20010903.htm
King James Old Testament Text;
http://www.concernedmembers.com/spiritualdeception.htm#4:2
King James New Testament Text;
http://www.concernedmembers.com/spiritualdeception.htm#4:3

Vote: Are The Charges True or Are The Charges False?
http://www.concernedmembers.com/knowyourbible3.htm#20020827

 
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Mitchell Skelton

216.170.165.94

Addition to my Post.

November 26 2002, 10:21 PM 

I would give the following suggestions regarding translations.
1. Keep the issue of translations in perspective. Almost everyone agrees that anyone can be saved if he will read almost any translation. (exceptions may include the JW's New World Translation)God did not call us to convert people to a translation or to dispute with bretheren about translations but to save the lost.
2. When doing personal work it is always best, if possible, to allow the person you are studying with to use their own translation.
3. Every translation is imperfect. Few would argue that any translation is absolutely without fault. Thus, the issue really is: What version best expresses the original in this particular verse? (A parallel bible that contains at least two versions is what I have found most helpful.)
4. The ultimate test of a translation is whether or not it faithfully represents the original or says to the reader in the new language what the reader in the original heard, not whether or not it agrees with a favorite translation or a particular interpretation.
5. Most (probably 99%) of those who discuss translations are not qualified to judge for themselves the relative merits of differing Greek texts. And I would question the use of one's time devoted to this matter particularly if he is a minister who should be about the work of the Lord.
6. A translation should be evaluated on the basis of the purpose of its translator(s) and his or thier methods. One can learn this by reading the forward or introduction to any translation he is thinking about using. examples: The Amplified Bible was never intended to be read in public. Today's Engish Version is in simplified English for a purpose and that's why it is so different. A paraphrase should be judged and used as a paraphrase, not as a literal translation. the difference between the NIV and the NRSV(and others) which adhere to the traditon which extends fron the KJV through the ASV to the RSV is largely a matter of a difference in translation theory and practice.
7. Every translator has biases, or preconceived notons, and the reader should watch for these to show up in the translation. But the translator's biases will not necessarily be reflected in the translation.
8. For study and exegesis, one should use a number of translations.
9. It is not necessary nor wise to try to force people who have been using the KJV all their lives to quit using it. However, if this version is used, the meaning of antiquated words and difficult passages must be explained thoroughly. Furthermore, the preacher needs to find a way to help people understand that what really matters is the original text of which the KJV is a translation.
10. In my opinion, it is unwise to ask children or people who have never read the bible before to begin their study of scripture by using the KJV. To do so places an unnecessary stumblingblock in their way. They must learn to read a different language with strange words before they can begin to understand what the Lord would have them to do to be saved. We have no evidence that the lord wanted the language of scriptue to be hard to read.

Toward a better understanding of the word of God,
Mitchell

 
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ConcernedMembers

65.80.181.238

Re: Addition to my Post.

November 27 2002, 5:47 PM 

Dear Mitchell;

I have no doubt that your thoughts are from the heart.

However, it is obvious that you know not what you preach or some evidence for testing would be provided.

Those that can read, let them see. The truth is far different from someones cozy beliefs.

http://www.concernedmembers.com/spiritualdeception.htm

 
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Mitchell Skelton

216.170.209.98

Actually I do know what I preach!

November 27 2002, 6:36 PM 

You see I don't know what happened to the first post that I sent. Obviously it was lost. In that post I explained myself and where I am coming from. This post was just an addendum to the first which never made it onto the forum.
I was responding to the claim that the Greek Text, from which the KJV was translated, is the better Greek Text. After all it is the "Received Text" or "Textus Receptus." The fact of the matter is that Erasmus first printed his Greek New Testament in 1516 and it underwent several revisions up until 1633. In 1633 the label "Textus Receptus" was placed on the publication as a marketing tool to help set it apart from other Greek New Testaments in circulation. It worked. I'm not saying that Erasmus' Greek New Testament is inferior, quite the contrary, it was good for it's time. However, just as Erasmus revised his own text as better, more reliable MSS came avaliable, people later used even more reliable MSS to create Greek bibles which are closer to the original than we have ever had before. Reasoning that the "Textus Receptus" is better because it uses the majority text is just plain faulty reasoning. Just because a MSS is in the majority does not make it more reliable, it only means that more copies of it were made and therefore if it contained errors or additions then these would be copied also.
The newer versions of the Greek New Testament use far superior MSS as they are older and come from more reliable categories of MSS. The reliability of these texts have been attested to by the patristic citations of early "church fathers."
I also question what is at the heart of those who claim that only the KJV should be trusted. What do our Spanish or Russian speaking brethren use? A translation of the KJV or a translation into their language of the original Greek?
I have done my homework on this matter. I wonder if many who claim the superiority of the KJV have done their homework. The real evidence is against you. The best way to study the bible, as ALL translations contain error, is to use several translations and use the one that that is as close to the original intent of the writer of that particular passage.

 
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Kevin Hamm

67.200.200.102

Re: Actually I do know what I preach!

November 28 2002, 1:59 AM 

Can you please explain what "more reliable MSS" you are referring to? I hope you are not referring to the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus manuscripts. If so, your reasoning is flawed. Older is not better. Corrupt is corrupt no matter how old the manuscript is. They disagree with each other over 3,000 times in the gospels alone.

From your posts, it sounds like you don't have a single Bible that you can hold in your hand and declare that it is the preserved Word of God. If this is what you are saying, then you are calling God a liar, Sir.

Psalms 12:6-7 "The words of the LORD [are] pure words: [as] silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever."

Prayerfully Onward,

Kevin




 
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Mitchell Skelton

216.170.209.42

Such Hostility!?!

November 29 2002, 10:22 PM 

I never knew what a nest of hornets I was stepping in untill after my first post! You brothers need to turn it down a notch. First of all I have never condemned the KJV and I NEVER said that I don't believe that God's word has not been preserved for us today! One should be careful about making such serious charges against another without basis. That is called slander which is condemned in the NIV, RSV, NKJV, ASV and Yes, even the KJV. Actually, I believe that we should thank God for being blessed with so many translations of His Holy Word with which we can use to study. But to hold one translation over another and declare it and it alone to be the only inspired word of God is quite dangerous. The JW's do this very thing and we condemn them for it. Until we all learn Greek then we just have to deal with the fact that we must all learn God's word through translations. It is because of this fact that we then must learn to accept that there will be errors in the translations, because what we are reading is the translation of God's word into our language by mere mortal men. As long as we recognize these facts then we can feel safe but if we confine ourself to only one translation then we are on dangerous ground and we have locked ourself into the mindset of only one group of translators.
As to the question of which group of MSS I was refering to the answer is not that simple. While the KJV locked itself into using only one version of the Greek NT (Erasmus' version), other translations chose to not limit themselves to one version so that they could use the rules of textual criticism against a variety of MSS and use the most reliable one for each verse, sentence, even down to words. (What a novel idea, use more than one version to make sure you get it right.) Any diligent bible student would do themselves a world of good to read the preface to every translation they have and find out for themselves the philosophy of translation that each particular version holds to. For example: The NIV followed the same idea as I described above. The translators of the NIV used the most reliable source material for any given passage instead of limiting themselves to just one MSS.
It may suprise you, but I am not a King James basher nor am I an NIV cheerleader. I simply want to be able to use a translation that is written in modern language so that I am not forced to spend ten minutes of sermon time explaining antiquated words and phrases to the congregation when I could be telling them more about God's precious Son. I know many faithful Men of God today who can and do(myself included), mount the pulpit and preach the sanctity of the pattern of worship that God instituted, including denouncing instrumental music in worship, while using an NIV. It is true, God has preserved His word for us today. God has even went further than that by blessing people with the knowledge of languages who can translate His preserved, Holy word into any language or dialect in the world. If God can do that then I am confident He can preserve His word to be translated into Modern English.
To God Be The Glory!
Mitchell Skelton

 
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Kevin Hamm

67.203.193.241

Re: Such Hostility!?!

November 30 2002, 1:27 AM 

I was not being hostile, I was merely responding to your own statements:

"The best way to study the bible, as ALL translations contain error, is to use several translations and use the one that that is as close to the original intent of the writer of that particular passage."

"Every translation is imperfect. Few would argue that any translation is absolutely without fault."

By stating that "ALL translations contain error", you are saying that God's Word is not preserved.

You did not state which group of more reliable MSS you were referring to. The translators of the King James Version were well aware of the existence of the corrupt Greek texts, but did not use them because they were so corrupt. It is a well known fact that all of the modern versions are based on the Sinaiticus and Vaticanus (Alexandrian line), the most corrupt texts available.

While it is possible to be saved by reading the modern versions, Scripture is grossly weakened by them. How can the Bible be a weapon for the Christian or allow the Christian to grow if it is so perverted?

Heb 4:12 "For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

2 Tim 3:16 "All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

1 Peter 2:2 "As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:"

You state:

"It may suprise you, but I am not a King James basher nor am I an NIV cheerleader."

However, prior to this statement you stated:

"While the KJV locked itself into using only one version of the Greek NT (Erasmus' version), other translations chose to not limit themselves to one version so that they could use the rules of textual criticism against a variety of MSS and use the most reliable one for each verse, sentence, even down to words. (What a novel idea, use more than one version to make sure you get it right.)"

Sounds like King James bashing to me. The King James translators used Beza's edition of 1598 and Stephanus edition of 1550 and 1551 as PRIMARY sources for their translation, not Erasmus.

In your previous post you stated:

"I also question what is at the heart of those who claim that only the KJV should be trusted. What do our Spanish or Russian speaking brethren use? A translation of the KJV or a translation into their language of the original Greek?"

God gave us the Old Testament in Hebrew, the New Testament in Greek and the whole Bible in English. Most countries today teach English as a second language.

Another statement you made was:

"Just because a MSS is in the majority does not make it more reliable, it only means that more copies of it were made and therefore if it contained errors or additions then these would be copied also."

I disagree. If a MSS is so reliable, why would it be found on a dust covered shelf in the Vatican or in the trash in a monastery? If a MSS is the inspired Word of God, it would be copied over and over and over to be shared with the whole world. The modern versions rely on 5 MSS while the KJV relies on 5,000. The two MSS that the modern versions rely heavily on, the Sinaiticus and Vaticanus, disagree with each other over 3,000 times in the Gospels alone.

When you say one should use several versions, how does one determine which one to use in any particular circumstance? If two Bibles disagree with each other, which one should be considered correct? Doesn't this cause confusion?

1 Cor 14:33 "For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints."

Prayerfully Onward,

Kevin



 
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Mitche

216.170.165.89

Help Me

November 30 2002, 11:24 AM 

You keep making the claim that the Modern Versions contradict with the KJV. Where? Especially when it comes to the plan of salvation. Show me where Even one version contradicts another. They are not to be found. Other so call "contradictions" are not to be found either. You are the one who is denying the fact that God has peserved His Holy Word. The bible does not contradict itself.

 
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Kevin Hamm

63.156.240.163

Re: Help Me

November 30 2002, 9:26 PM 

Luke 9:56

KJV
For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save [them]. And they went to another village.

NIV
and they went to another village. (footnote reads "And he said, "You do not know what kind of spirit you are of, for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." 56")

Matthew 18:11

KJV
For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

NIV
missing (footnote reads "11 The Son of Man came to save what was lost.")

Matthew 9:13

KJV
But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

NIV
But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.

1 Corinthians 5:7

KJV
Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

NIV
Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast--as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.

John 6:47

KJV
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

NIV
I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.

Luke 2:33

KJV
And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.

NIV
The child's father and mother marveled at what was said about him.

Mark 3:15

KJV
And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:

NIV
to have authority to drive out demons.

John 16:16

KJV
A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

NIV
"In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me."

1 Timothy 3:16

KJV
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

NIV
Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great:
He[3] appeared in a body,[4]
was vindicated by the Spirit,
was seen by angels,
was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world,
was taken up in glory.
(footnote [3] Some manuscripts God [4] Or in the flesh)

Mark 16:9-20

KJV
Now when [Jesus] was risen early the first [day] of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

[And] she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.

And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.

After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

And they went and told [it] unto the residue: neither believed they them.

Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with [them], and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

NIV
((The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20.))

9When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons. 10She went and told those who had been with him and who were mourning and weeping. 11When they heard that Jesus was alive and that she had seen him, they did not believe it.
12Afterward Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking in the country. 13These returned and reported it to the rest; but they did not believe them either.
14Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.
15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."
19After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. 20Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.

Luke 11:2-4
And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

Give us day by day our daily bread.

And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

NIV
2He said to them, "When you pray, say:
" 'Father,[1]
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come.[2]
3Give us each day our daily bread.
4Forgive us our sins,
for we also forgive everyone who sins against us.[3]
And lead us not into temptation.[4] ' "
(too many footnotes)

Matthew 5:22

KJV
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

NIV
22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother[2] will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,[3] ' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.
(footnotes [2] Some manuscripts brother without cause [3] An Aramaic term of contempt)

Luke 4:8

KJV
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

NIV
Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.'"

John 9:35

KJV
Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?

NIV
Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and when he found him, he said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?"

Matthew 23:14

KJV
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

NIV
missing (footnote reads "Some manuscripts 14 Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You devour widows' houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. Therefore you will be punished more severely.")

Luke 17:36

KJV
Two [men] shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

NIV
missing (footnote reads "Some manuscripts 36 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.)

Acts 8:37

KJV
And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

NIV
missing (footnote reads "Some late manuscripts 37 Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." The eunuch answered, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.")

1 John 5:7-8

KJV
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

NIV
7For there are three that testify: 8the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. (footnote reads [1] Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 8 And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the sixteenth century))

2 Samuel 21:19

KJV
And there was again a battle in Gob with the Philistines, where Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew [the brother of] Goliath the Gittite, the staff of whose spear [was] like a weaver's beam.

NIV
In another battle with the Philistines at Gob, Elhanan son of Jaare-Oregim the Bethlehemite killed Goliath the Gittite, who had a spear with a shaft like a weaver's rod.

Prayerfully Onward,

Kevin

 
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Mitchell Skelton

216.170.209.6

No Contradictions

December 2 2002, 12:46 AM 

I appreciate all the different bible verses you posted. It is always a pleasure to read the word of God. (This is not meant sarcastically. I truly appreciate anyone’s effort at striving to do God’s will.)

In an attempt to understand where it is you are coming from I read the article “Spiritual Deception” that you had linked to in one of your posts. I don’t know how much good our discussion will accomplish after reading this article. It seems that the attitude you and the writer have taken is that the KJV is the only true inspired word of God and that the translators themselves were inspired. While I would agree that the KJV is the inspired word of God and that the providence of God was definitely working for the good of man in their effort, I do not agree that it is the only translation that is the inspired word of God nor do I agree that the translators were inspired. The only inspired men of God involved in the completion of God’s word had a miraculous gift of the Holy Spirit.

2 Peter 1:19–21 “We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.”

I do not believe that you think these men had that sort of gift. But since God is a living God and since He is still active in this world today then why would He not want people of today to have a copy of His Holy Word available in their native language, whether it is Spanish, Danish, Portugese, Russian, or Modern English? I believe that our God is quite capable and quiet powerful enough to use divine providence in making this happen.

As to the specific verses you quoted in your post, I suppose these were meant as a reply to my post saying that there were no contradictions in the translations. You have done a good job of making the point for me. Where are the contradictions? There are differences in translation, but no contradictions. Let’s look at a few of the verses you posted:

Let’s do the easiest one first
2 Samuel 21:19 - I suppose that you would say that there is a contradiction here because the NIV leaves out “the brother of.” The facts are that even the KJV admits in it’s own pages that “the brother of” was inserted by the translators. The words in brackets, italics, or parentheses (depending upon your particular bible) are an indication that these words were not in the original. Does this mean that the bible contradicts itself? Certainly not! We know the truth of the matter is that this actually was the brother of Goliath who was killed from reading 1 Chron. 20. We can also look to various bible dictionaries and lexicons and find out that “Lahmi the brother of” is very similar to “the Bethlehemite.” The translators of the KJV simply chose to “correct” the error in the MSS by inserting what we know to be true while the translators of the NIV chose to go with a more literal translation. Two different styles yet both are correct and no contradiction.


Matthew 9:13 - Once again, since you made no comments, I must deduce that in reference to this vers you are pointing out the omission of “to repentance” in the NIV. The facts on this matter are quite clear. The phrase “to repentance” was an addition to the MSS that was used by the KJV translators. Earlier and equally reliable MSS do not have this phrase. Does this omit doctrine from God’s word? Absolutely not! (See Luke 5:32, 2 Peter 3:9, Luke 13:3, 5 and others.)

Matthew 5:22 - I assume that the omission of “without a cause” is a contradiction. However we have accounts of Jesus saying things differently on occasion yet there is not contradiction. In Matthew 5 and 19 Jesus gives us the only reason for marriage after divorce, yet in Mark 10 Jesus gives no exception to the marriage after divorce rule. If there is an error in translation of the scripture let us all hope that it would err on the conservative side, as the NIV does here by leaving out the exception, instead of the other way around.

Mark 16:9-20 - I would agree that the statement before this section in most modern translations might cause someone who is seeking for the truth to question the authenticity of these verses. The fact of the matter is that these MSS do exist. They are earlier and in a more reliable group of MSS than many that exist. I personally believe that verses 9–20 belong in the scripture but let’s not bury our head in the sand and pretend that the issue is not out there to be dealt with. You may very well come across one of these true seekers one day with the question of whether or not these verses belong in the bible. Even if this person is fully convinced that verses 9–20 do not belong in the bible, can we not still use other portions of scripture to teach the necessity of evangelism and baptism? (See Matt. 28:18–20, Acts 2:38, Romans 6:1–14, and numerous others.)

I could go on but I feel that these suffice, at least for me anyway. I leave you with the words of Paul and pray that you all would pray this prayer with me.
Ephesians 4:2–6“Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. ”

Toward Unity,
Mitchell


 
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Kevin Hamm

63.156.240.13

RE: No Contradictions

December 2 2002, 2:42 AM 

Mitchell,

The modern versions by virtue of their footnotes are casting doubt on God's Word by continuing Satan's lie, "Yea, hath God said".

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

The changes and deletions in the modern versions may seem trivial to the trained eye, but they accomplish casting doubt on the true Word of God.

Does the NIV lead us to believe Isa 14:12 is referring to Jesus?

Isa 14:12

KJV
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

NIV
How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!

Rev 22:16

KJV
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.

Why were the words "but by every word of God" removed?

Luke 4:4

KJV
And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

NIV
Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone.'"

By removing such words, the NIV has weakened Scripture.

There are many, many examples of such changes. Many of them can be found by following the links on the main Concerned Members page or by searching for NIV vs KJV in a search engine.

Many of the changes taking place in the brotherhood can be linked to these changes in God's Word and many of them can be seen as being changed to support Roman Catholic doctrine.

Every word of God is important. The underlying Greek Text of the NIV is 2,886 words shorter than the Textus Receptus. These words DO affect doctrine and their removal CAN cause one to stumble by implanting doubt.

These are not differences in translation as you assert. They are differences in the underlying Greek Text. All of the modern versions rely on a corrupt Greek Text and should be abandoned.

Prayerfully Onward,

Kevin

 
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Janine

65.190.174.221

Biblioidolatry

December 7 2002, 9:34 PM 

Mitchell, I praise God there are brothers like you, with the patience to do this...

These people prove the very things they are trying to argue against every time they open their mouths.

 
 Respond to this message   
Kevin Hamm

63.156.240.102

Re: Biblioidolatry

December 7 2002, 10:36 PM 

Janine,

I am very aware of the following verses:

Exodus 20:4-5 Thou shalt not make unto thee any
graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that
[is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth
beneath, or that [is] in the water under the
earth:

Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve
them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God,
visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the
children unto the third and fourth [generation] of
them that hate me;

I am also very aware of these verses:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the
Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and
powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword,
piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and
spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a
discerner of the thoughts and intents of the
heart.

Are you accusing me of Biblioidolatry because I believe in the inerrancy of the KJV Bible? Am I to understand from your comment that you do not believe in an inerrant Bible? If so, then what parts are in error and what parts are not? Who makes that decision? Is it left up to the individual? Isn't this postmodernism in its purest form (the only truth is what is experienced by the individual)?

Since there was not much substance to your post, would you care to elaborate on what "things" you are referring to? Just by making the statement "These people prove the very things they are trying to argue against every time they open their mouths" does not make it true. I'll be looking forward to reading a post from you with facts to support your accusations.

Prayerfully Onward,

Kevin

 
 Respond to this message   
Jim Queen

65.80.188.118

Re: Re: Biblioidolatry

December 8 2002, 1:47 PM 

Kevin,

Try these for starters as you wait for Janine to respond.

From the perspective of one who believes the KJV Bible is a direct "Word of God" and free of all error and contradiction, how would you address the following:

SHOULD WE KILL?

Exodus 20:13 "Thou shalt not kill."
Leviticus 24:17 "And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death."

VS

Exodus 32:27 "Thus sayeth the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, . . . and slay every man his brother, . . . companion, . . . neighbor."
I Samuel 6:19 " . . . and the people lamented because the Lord had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter."
I Samuel 15:2,3,7,8 "Thus saith the Lord . . . Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. . . . And Saul smote the Amalekites . . . and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword."
Numbers 15:36 "And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses."
Hosea 13:16 "they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with children shall be ripped up."

SHOULD WE TELL LIES?

Exodus 20:16 "Thou shalt not bear false witness."
Proverbs 12:22 "Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord."

VS

I Kings 22:23 "The Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee."
II Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie."

SHALL WE KEEP THE SABBATH?

Exodus 20:8 "Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy."
Exodus 31:15 "Whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death."
Numbers 15:32,36 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. . . . And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses."

VS

Isaiah 1:13 "The new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity."
John 5:16 "And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day."
Colossians 2:16 "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy-day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days."

SHALL WE MAKE GRAVEN IMAGES?

Exodus 20:4 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven . . . earth . . . water."
Leviticus 26:1 "Ye shall make ye no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone."
Deuteronomy 27:15 "Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image."

VS

Exodus 25:18 "And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them."
I Kings 7:15,16,23,25 "For he [Solomon] cast two pillars of brass . . . and two chapiters of molten brass . . . And he made a molten sea . . . it stood upon twelve oxen . . . [and so on]"

ARE WE SAVED THROUGH WORKS?

Ephesians 2:8,9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith . . . not of works."
Romans 3:20,28 "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight."
Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ."

VS

James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
Matthew 19:16-21 "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he [Jesus] said unto him . . . keep the commandments. . . . The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven."
The common defense here is that "we are saved by faith and works." But Paul said "not of works."

SHOULD GOOD WORKS BE SEEN?

Matthew 5:16 "Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works."
I Peter 2:12 "Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that . . . they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation."

VS

Matthew 6:1-4 "Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them . . . that thine alms may be in secret."
Matthew 23:3,5 "Do not ye after their [Pharisees'] works. . . . all their works they do for to be seen of men."

DOES GOD CHANGE HIS MIND?

Malachi 3:6 "For I am the Lord; I change not."
Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent."
Ezekiel 24:14 "I the Lord have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent."
James 1:17 " . . . the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."

VS

Exodus 32:14 "And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."
Genesis 6:6,7 "And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth . . . And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth . . . for it repenteth me that I have made him."
Jonah 3:10 ". . . and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."

See also II Kings 20:1-7, Numbers 16:20-35, Numbers 16:44-50.

See Genesis 18:23-33, where Abraham gets God to change his mind about the minimum number of righteous people in Sodom required to avoid destruction, bargaining down from fifty to ten.

ARE WE PUNISHED FOR OUR PARENTS' SINS?

Exodus 20:5 "For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation." (Repeated in Deuteronomy 5:9)
Exodus 34:6-7 " . . . The Lord God, merciful and gracious, . . . that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation."
I Corinthians 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, . . ."

VS

Ezekiel 18:20 "The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father."
Deuteronomy 24:16 "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

DOES GOD TEMPT PEOPLE?

James 1:13 "Let no man say . . . I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man."

VS

Genesis 22:1 "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham."

HAS ANYONE SEEN GOD?

John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time."
Exodus 33:20 "Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live."
John 6:46 "Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God [Jesus], he hath seen the Father."
I John 4:12 "No man hath seen God at any time."

VS

Genesis 32:30 "For I have seen God face to face."
Exodus 33:11 "And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend."
Isaiah 6:1 "In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple."
Job 42:5 "I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee."

ARE WE ALL SINNERS?

Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."
Romans 3:10 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one."
Psalm 14:3 "There is none that doeth good, no, not one."

VS

Job 1:1 "There was a man . . . who name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright."
Genesis 7:1 "And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation."
Luke 1:6 "And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."

DID MICHAL HAVE CHILDREN?

II Samuel 6:23 "Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death."

VS

II Samuel 21:8 "But the king took the two sons of Rizpah . . . and the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul."

HOW MANY STALLS DID SOLOMON HAVE?

I Kings 4:26 "And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen."

VS

II Chronicles 9:25 "And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen."

DID PAUL'S MEN HEAR A VOICE?

Acts 9:7 "And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man."

VS

Acts 22:9 "And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me."

WHO WAS JOSEPH'S FATHER?

Matthew 1:16 "And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus."

VS

Luke 3:23 "And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli."

 
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Kevin Hamm

63.156.240.131

Re: Jim Queen's Alleged Discrepancies in the Bible

December 8 2002, 8:36 PM 

Thank you for the questions, Jim. I'm always thankful for an opportunity to study the Word.

1. SHOULD WE KILL?

One is a law for man concerning man. The other is concerning righteous judgment for those deserving it.

No contradiction here.

2. SHOULD WE TELL LIES?

Another case of a law for man concerning man. The other is righteous judgment for those deserving it. Notice that God did not lie himself. He allowed it to happen.

No contradiction here.

3. SHALL WE KEEP THE SABBATH?

Isaiah 1:13 is saying that they were so wicked that anything they did was displeasing to God including keeping the Sabbath. The other verses refer to the new covenant (New Testament). We are no longer under the Old Law.

No contradiction here.

4. SHALL WE MAKE GRAVEN IMAGES?

The references given were not idols and were not worshipped.

No contradiction here.

5. ARE WE SAVED THROUGH WORKS?

James is referring to those who SAY they have faith, but there is no fruit (works). If you are saved, there will be a natural outpouring of good works.

Matthew is referring to a self-righteous man who SAID he had kept all of the commandments. Since no one can keep all of the commandments, you are saved by faith.

No contradiction here.

6. SHOULD GOOD WORKS BE SEEN?

These verses deal with intent. Some of the verses are dealing with those who want their works to be seen so that they will APPEAR to be righteous. Other verses are dealing with works that can be seen by others, but for which one is not asking for credit (not bragging), so that the world will see they are a christian.

No contradiction here.

7. DOES GOD CHANGE HIS MIND?

It must be understood that God knows everything. He knew what the outcome would be before it ever happened. It may APPEAR to us that he changed his mind, but did he? God already knew that there would not be 10 righteous people in Sodom, so whether it be 50 or 10 did not matter.

No contradiction here.

8. ARE WE PUNISHED FOR OUR PARENTS' SINS?

The first verses refer to the fact that God has the power to punish us for our parents' sins. The last verses tell us that we can avoid that result by repenting and not following the same path our parents did.

No contradiction here.

9. DOES GOD TEMPT PEOPLE?

God was testing Abraham. James 1:2-3 "My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing [this], that the trying of your faith worketh patience."

No contradiction here.

10. HAS ANYONE SEEN GOD?

These speak of the Godhead. It was Jesus they saw not the Father. John 12:41 "These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him."

No contradiction here.

11. ARE WE ALL SINNERS?

These verses do not say they are not sinners. They were righteous, but no one is without sin except Jesus.

No contradiction here.

12. DID MICHAL HAVE CHILDREN?

2 Sam 21:8 "But the king took the two sons of Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, whom she bare unto Saul, Armoni and Mephibosheth; and the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul, whom she brought up for Adriel the son of Barzillai the Meholathite:"

The key phrase here is "whom she brought up for Adriel". She did not give birth to them, but she did raise them.

No contradiction here.

13. HOW MANY STALLS DID SOLOMON HAVE?

Could be 4,000 large stalls of 10 stalls each for a total of 40,000.

No reason to believe this is a contradiction.

14. DID PAUL'S MEN HEAR A VOICE?

Two different definitions of "heard". Audibly hearing and understanding. They heard the voice, but they didn't understand as Paul did.

No contradiction here.

15. WHO WAS JOSEPH'S FATHER?

Matthew gives the genealogy of Joseph and Luke gives the genealogy of Mary. Because of Hebrew tradition, Luke only mentions males and uses the name Joseph to refer to Mary. Jacob is the father of Joseph and Heli is the father of Mary.

No contradiction here.

Prayerfully Onward,

Kevin

 
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Mitchell Skelton

216.170.165.83

AMEN BROTHER KEVIN!!!

December 8 2002, 11:48 PM 

Kevin,

As I live and breathe we are in total agreement. The word of God never contradicts itself. Those who try to "prove" otherwise are merely conducting an exercise in futility. Any so called contradictions are only claims by those who are lacking in knowledge. They should take the advice of the scripture and "study to show your self approved before God."

In His Name,
Mitchell

 
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There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

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Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

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At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

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Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
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Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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