Hello,

I enjoy this web site. I just found out I am a "traditionalist." I thought I was
just a NT Christian. Being traditional is something I wear with pride. Why? Because I have the Bible to back me up, NOT MAN'S OPINIONS!

I am very worried about the many churches out there and Christian colleges that are moving
in the wrong direction. Thanks for this great
web site and giving me some insight on what
is going on.

I am so thankful to be part of a congregation that has strong, sound elders and a strong membership. I have learned from them that we all need to investigate the scriptures and stand up for what is right, not merely sit back and be idle.

I pray that this "community" movement will die.

It is so vital that we focus on keeping the letter of the NT law. After all, who cares about what Jesus' basic message was: Love. What a waste of time; right Meathead?

Why love each other and share your faith when there are so many rules/principles to uphold and so much watchdogging to be done. We MUST be steadfast as we look for these "change agents" that only want to spread the false teaching of Christ, and Him crucified.

After all, what you really mean when you quote the famous (infamous?) Restoration Movement adage: We speak where the Bible speaks and where the Bible is silent, we have very strong convictions.


A big "hats off" to the majority of the contributors on this website (like yourself); you are the reason why the modern churches of Christ have consistently shrunk in size the past 20 years. When you stand before Christ at judgement, I can't wait to see how you handle the whole "judge not, lest ye be judged" question.

Be careful about thinking you've got everything figured out. The Pharisees and Saducees (and Crump and Sublett etc etc...) thought they did too.

Crump and Sublett and Cruz and others CANNOT BE a Pharisee. Therefore, by SPEAKING where the BIBLE speaks you COULD NOT use the word PHARISEE as a RACA word: source, Bible and Webster 101aaa for the slow ones in the slow group.

A Pharisee is defined by JESUS as one who CHANGES the Words of God and refuses to SPEAK where God speaks. Why is that? Because BIBLE SPEAK turns all of the hounds of hell (Shelly says "hounds of heaven") loose on you to jump and craunch your bones.

By definition he STANDS to make long prayers where BIBLE SPEAK would put him on his knees in the closet or innermost part of His being: worship is IN THE PLACE OF THE HUMAN SPIRIT.

He collects all that he can to FORCE them to listen to HIS new style worship.

Why? Why, so he can FLEECE the old widows by eating up her HOUSE or living.

Crump is an honerable man who refrains from using a talent I would love to have: often engineers cannot do hand eye-cordination to connect a few marks on a piece of paper to a few black and white keys. I don't preach, pray publically, change THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN but SPEND lots of money each month because MINISTERS work to support OTHERS.

Now, Speaking where the Bible Speaks is as Old as God: Those who DON'T "do not have the light in them."

READING DISCIPLES can read the Biblical and Historical PROOF and know that you are NOT a disciple. It is easy to become a Disciple: turn AWAY from seeing God in the mirror brightly, repent of lying in this forum, confess that you need help, be baptized and only with A HOLY SPIRIT can you understand the DEEPER mysteries of God.

http://www.piney.com/ComExamInfer.html

All of the AGENTS make fun of and BLAME churches of Christ for "speaking where the Bible speaks"being ignorant or lying about the Bible and history. I believe it to be an act of angry psychological violence by those who have heart the TRUMPET (new style worship).

God says over and over that HE has the right to define.

All of History's scholars agree with that.

You deny it.

You call God a Liar. The BIBLE SPEAKS that to be a very dangerous condition.

Ken

Ken,

As I recall, I didn't call God a liar. Thanks for your consideration.

FYI, In addition to your website (www.piney.com) containing a fantastically exhaustive list of "change agents", your website also has links to Time magazine, the popular politically liberal news service that provides biased news coverage for the democratic liberals that support things like removing prayer from public schools, removal of the 10 Commandments from public places, abortion rights, and rights for homosexuals.

It also has a link to the Christian Science Monitor, the newspaper published by the First Church of Christ, Scientist founded by Mary Baker Eddy. I don't think that's the church of Christ you want to support is it?


You might want to remove those things before someone gets the wrong idea.

BH

Piney.com is NOT a church but a library:

I also link to NewsMax so the "readers" can do an end run around preachers! I link to Machiavelli quoted by Rubel Shelly, Aldos Huxley quoted by Lynn Anderson, Adolph Hitler (MK) who, along with Machiavelli, trained the CHANGE AGENTS. I haven't the slighest interest in what they think of my LIBRARY.

I link to the Ancient documents all of which argued IN FAVOR of the New Style Worship for PAGANS. They all prove why the Bible is anti-music.

I am a DISCIPLE of everything everyone has ever written about anything. I have 3 dozen ancient documents and later commentaries proving that Satan brought music with HER to bleed off worship from God. I am quite sure that no one in the world has collected more literature about MUSIC and NOT A JOT in favor. I have posted Calvin on original sin, Luther on 'faith only" and Calvin on 'faith only' who claims that DIRECT OPERATIONISTS are fanatics. I have the primary TRINITARIAN literature: pro and con and NO ONE pre DLC, the GA, H. Leo Boles and the GA WING of the church ever thought of God as three separated PEOPLE (except as a trial run).

I REVIEW many of the preacher-"scholars" not as CHANGE AGENTS primarily but because they are ANTI-BIBLICAL they are Anti-Christian. Testing the Spirits, Go preach the TRUTH and the first ammendment FORCES me to ridicule people who hallucinate that THEY and their "commune" have to PARTNER with God to "work out their own salvation." The PREACH that Paul meant that THEY worked out the SCRIPTURES for THEIR CULTURE. Our culture has changed (I always have to shout: WOW!) so WE gotta do our bible as DEFINED by our culture.

Private Persons are NOT ALLOWED to read their Bible, interprete it or SPEAK it outside of the COMMUNITY meaning COMMUNE. You will notice that no one from Woodmont raises their little nail heads above the ground level.

I am aware of nothing which contradicts the strong opinion that there has been NO original thinking since the Classical writers and the church "fathers" on theology. So, if you want to know about PLATONIC LOVE (the love of a man for a young boy) then I can point you to the resources which defines CHARISMATIC meaning "singy-clappy" Peter Pans. They also define MUSICA, MELODIA, ODEING, CANTUS, SYMPONIA, HARMONIA along with MAGICA, EXEGETICE AND HERMENUO as "sorcery." Now, if you want to get EMASCULATED by the boy-girls you just try to get everyone to make them into LAUGHINGSTOCKS instead of "watch what I am doing and follow me in order to know how to worship!" Yep! Body Worship.

Ken

Anybody who equates "change agents" with Adolph Hitler has truly gone way way off the deep end (try some lithium). I'll not respond anymore to you but will thoroughly look forward to reading your other posts for sheer entertainment purposes. I only pray that you won't scare away any more believers than you may have already.

The loss of Hitler led many "thinkers" to communism. That is the only meaning of COMMUNITY as COMMUNE as well documented by some of the Agents. I don't fear those who can burn your body in a furnace; I fear those who can cause your souls to be lost. I am sure that the methods are used in any group with a dominant leader.

Antonio Gramsci, Machiavelli and Hitler taught Emotional Manipulation of Human Material (sheep) but training of the intellectual, dominant few with just one Head Shepherd. Here is a tiny bit of Gramsci and you should also study Jung and Hegel and Kung the authority for the "now but not yet kingdom." Hitler called them HUMAN MATERIAL and Willow Creek calls them COMPLIMENTARIANS.

http://www.piney.com/WinPostMod.html

Note that at the bottom of this paper I have posted some Machiavelli and Hitler whose methods are adopted by the change agents and without apology by some.

Shelly York on Narrative Theology:

http://www.piney.com/Shelly-York-Narrative.html

Whole life discipleship:

http://www.piney.com/RS.Discipling.2.1.html

Ken

I have posted an excellent article from Time about the EFFECTS of music well known by Lucifer and Nimrod:

http://www.piney.com/MuTimeBrain.html

Ken

Pharisee, unkind, unloving, unchristian, unaccepting, intolerant, judgmental, legalistic, slanderers. These are a few of the words stored in change agents’ vocabulary of responses to those in opposition to the Change Movement. They are slung about freely, and they are weary-worn.

I never will cease to be amazed at those who continue to hold that obeying Matt. 7:15 (be alert for false prophets) and Romans 16:17 (mark those who pervert the Word of God) violates Matt. 7:1 (the all-famous “judge not” passage, probably the most frequently quoted by change agents). This entire web site has presented (and continues to present) mountains of biblical evidence showing that the agents and churches of the Change Movement pervert the Word of God and are bent on a worldly agenda. Yet many people still ignore this evidence, because they do not wish to see or believe the atrocity unfolding before them. No one violates Matt. 7:1 if they present the Truth. No one is guilty of slander if they present the Truth.

I never will cease to be amazed at the Change Movement, which seems to hold that, as long as you have “love” and a “heart for Jesus,” virtually nothing else matters. This is straight from Rick Warren’s “Purpose-Driven” philosophy. Neither strict obedience to the commands of Christ, nor strict following of biblical doctrine, nor the pursuit of Truth seem to matter, as long as one “loves.” According to the Change Movement, it seems almost impossible to have “love” and follow Christ’s commandments at the same time. Are they mutually exclusive? Even sinners “love” each other, according to Jesus, but it profits them little. As faith is dead without works and works are nothing without love, love is worthless unless it is given through the strict guidance and order of Christ’s commands.

I never will cease to be amazed at those who defend the Change Movement with absolutely no biblical basis for doing so. Indeed, biblical principles cry out exceedingly against the principles of the Change Movement.

I never will cease to be amazed at those who frequently respond with intense hate, animosity, and anger to warnings against the Change Movement . They follow a double standard, which justifies their unchristian behavior yet condemns those who mark them as false prophets.

I never will cease to be amazed at the following observation: the stronger the argument made against the Change Movement and the more biblical evidence offered against it, the more vicious are the personal attacks and rages from the change agents.

I never will cease to be amazed at those opposing this web site, who hide behind their initials (e.g., BH, JD) or post anonymously. As arguments for the Change Movement are futile without biblical support, arguments without contributors’ full identities carry no weight.

It’s time for Christians to take some Bible-based responsibility for their actions and get things "figured out," before it's too late. Leading a church with little or no regard for the strict commands of the Law of Christ is like an aircraft without a rudder -- quickly it plummets from the sky to destruction. BH believes that the C of C is shrinking in size because it has been too strict about the Law of Christ. No, too many once-faithful members have prostituted themselves over to the shiny, glitzy world of worship entertainment and churches offering a more palatable, easy “gospel” other than the hard Gospel of Jesus Christ.

But we’ll keep reiterating this message until it sinks in or until the Last Day.

"Doctor" Bill,

I hope you'll find my name in all CAPS sufficient for identification purposes. That seemed important to you in your original reply post.

First off, thanks for assuming I've read Purpose-Driven Life. I've never cracked it open. ("Master Warren" -- that's cute, Bill). The Bible is my sole guidebook -- I'll ask you not to make perverse inferences about me otherwise.

Secondly, not once did I profess that the "Law of Christ" (as you put it) was the downfall of the modern ultra-conservative church of Christ. I said it was the strong opinion-based Biblically unfounded convictions of theologic charlatans that are causing our younger generation to leave the church in droves.

Lastly,I thank God that no one will be judging me on that last day except God Himself. I serve/praise/worship/am held accountable to an audience of One, and contrary to what your posts would otherwise indicate, you are not Him.

Ephesians 4:3
Make EVERY effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.

Might want to go back and reread that one...
Have a nice life.

BH

Hello, BEN,

I respect you more for using your real name. Thanks for doing so. Your message heading should have begun with the word "Please." It helps to soften the hardness of an otherwise rather tense message, and it is a sign of having polite manners.

I never said that you READ Rick Warren’s books. You don’t have to READ them to parrot his philosophy. It’s all over the Internet. After all, if it SOUNDS like Warren (looks like a duck, walks like a duck, etc.), what else can we infer, unless you clarify yourself to the contrary, as you seem to have done.

“Perverse inferences” is the term you used when you mistakenly thought I had accused you of having read Warren. I like that, I really do. With that terminology, we can infer that you do NOT subscribe to Warren’s Purpose-Driven, Change-Movement philosophy, and that, by your own admission, the Bible is your sole guidebook. That is most encouraging. That is all you, I, the Church, or ANYONE ever needs.

However, you might want to expound a bit more on "the strong opinion-based Biblically unfounded convictions of theologic charlatans." Who are these charlatans and in what way are their strong convictions unfounded?

About Ephesians 4:3, I couldn’t agree with you more. Now if the change agents would cease infiltrating traditional churches and keep to themselves by building their own churches, unity and peace would be preserved, at least in that area.

And though God will be the Final Judge, if anyone or any church perverts the Word of God or preaches a gospel contrary to what is written in the strict, absolute Law of Christ, it is the duty of every Christian to mark and avoid them, according to Romans 16:17. That is not being judgmental. It is being obedient. That is the purpose of this web site, which many fail to appreciate.

Have a great life, yourself. We'll be looking for your FULL NAME on all of your future posts.

I knew something was very wrong with two churches of christ I attended in san jose ca.
I returned to the church after years of being lost. I was amazed at the change. If I had been a faithful christian all these years maybe I could have helped prevent the evil change in these two churches. I will have to answer to God for that. The two c f c churches are text book examples of the Madison church. I will continue to look for an unsullied church but I have little hope of finding one in Calif. Maybe I'll start a home church. Maybe that's the only way to get back to basics. What ever happens I will never return to the devil.

Dr. Bill (mine Dr. Bill is more loving that others)

I too, have been "blown away" amazed at the blindness of the Church, till I read that is to be. II Thess. 2. We are in the Last Days, so unless you change your "Normal Logic" thinking filters, we will continue to amazed.

Keep something in mind. When God prophecies, He is not telling us what could happen. He is teaching us history, for He has already seen it; for He is omnipresent.


To God be the Glory
Joe McKnight

"Meathead"....You are indeed a Traditionalist. And, your kind is dying, not the "community" movement as you label it. Be happy in your church and don't criticize those of us who differ with you on disputable matters. We are happy and you should be also.

Your "interpretation" of what is wrong and what is right is disputable at best.

JD

JD stated, "Your 'interpretation' of what is wrong and what is right is disputable at best." Again, more parroting of Rick Warren's "Purpose-Driven" philosophy. According to Warren, only "love" is paramount, and everything else in life is "disputable." On p. 124 of "The Purpose-Driven Life," Warren adds, "Jesus said our love for each other - not our doctrinal beliefs - is our greatest witness to the world." So I guess that as long as you have "love," your beliefs are superfluous; those with strong biblical convictions Warren would likely label as "legalistic."

Yes, JD, we should be happy in our church as you are in yours. Unfortunately, too many supporters of the Change Movement have done exactly what Rick Warren cautioned NOT to do: infiltrate traditional churches with his methodology and philosophy of church growth. He knew that his approach was radical and would cause extreme division if railroaded into traditional churches. In his book "The Purpose-Driven Church," Warren at least had the decency to stipulate that implementing his system should begin from the foundation of a church, from the ground up.

But no, change agents have not been content to follow their master Warren's advice. As a result, this web site was created not only to warn all churches about the unbiblical philosophies of the Change Movement, but especially to urge traditional churches to be watchful, to keep the Change Movement from their doors.

Wow, I don't visit this site for a couple of weeks and everything goes haywire.

I went back to review my message to see if anything judgemental or hateful was said. I did nothing of the sort. However, several people have attacked me.

I do not sit back and judge people in denominations. (Baptist, Methodist, Community, whatever it is). I don't have that authority. However, I can do one thing: I can make sure that whatever I do is in the right. All I need to do is open the Bible, see what God says and authorizes, and follow it. It's not that difficult. If I insert my opinion, then it changes.

Oh, and this idea that I am part of a dying breed (traditionalist), you couldn't be more wrong. The church I am a member of is GROWING. We typically have 100 in membership, but we just had 190 in attendance. Why? No, we didn't have praise teams, instrumental worship services, dramatic plays, or anything else. It's because we simply invited people to come to church. Wow, what a concept!

I will continue to pray for those who see "traditionalists" in the wrong. I am merely a Christian trying to do what God tells me to do. Nothing else.

Meathead, the very fact that you profess to be a Traditionalist, who follows the pure Word of God without incorporating worldly gimmicks into your worship services, and who does not attempt to alter, adjust, or "update" the Bible to suit personal preferences, political special-interest groups, or modern cultural trends, makes you an ideal target for the Change Movement to attack. In short, you represent all that is good and decent. Any wonder, then, why you're under attack? Rejoice in Matt. 5:10-12.

Just read on another site that "traditionlists" are "law-based" Church members. We view the NT as law. I guess the other side is "freedom-based" which means as long as Christians pursue the right method of salvation, everything else is okay (instrumental music, leadership structure in the Church, and so forth).

I'm worried about the Church.

Observations from one who empathizes with and has been on both sides of the argument...

If a "NT Christian" is truly concerned about "obeying the law", then clearly love is the most emphasized by far: We all know what Jesus told the rich young ruler; in Romans 6:14 Paul says "the entire law is summed up in a single command: Love your neighbor as yourself"; and later James refers to this as the "royal law" (James 2:8).

So since we know that this IS the most important thing, then we should consider it when differences arise. Just because someone disagrees with me does not give me the right to show hatred. In fact, it clearly violates this "law". It seems ironic that in holding so strong to our "issue beliefs" that in most cases are disputable, we are disobeying God regarding something that he has clearly made known to us as THE most important thing to him (love). It makes me sad when I hear some people just blow off "love" as if it were a secondary issue.

Here are my observations of the "law" after doing a study throughout the new testament. In the gospels, Jesus does not talk about bringing a new law; he talks about fulfilling it. By fulfilling the law, Jesus eliminated our obligation to live under the law. Gal 3:13 "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us..", Gal 2:21 "I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteouness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing" Gal 3:24-25 "So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law" Gal 5:4 "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

You may be thinking: but these pertain to the old law. But does it really make sense after looking at these verses that God intended for us to go from being a slave to one law to being a slave of a new one? These verses very directly imply that following a law is not what saves us. Gal 5:18 "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law". Notice it does not say "the" law so you can not say it refers to the old law. Rom 6:14 "For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace." Again it does not say the law, but law in general. The only reference to a new law of Christ (i.e. NT law) is in Gal 1-3 where it talks about carrying each other's burdens so you fulfill the law of Christ...sounds like an action of love to me.

I think many are fearful that if we truly feel and live as if we have freedom in Christ then that means we are saying we don't have to do anything to be saved. It doesn't mean that. I think God clearly reveals what he expects of us as we embrace his grace, but most of the things that are disputed here and other places are disputable matters period. Paul tells us in Romans 16 not to pass judgment on disputable matters. From titus 3:9 "But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because they are unprofitable and useless."

Disputable matters...I could go on about these for days, but I will just quote Paul from 1Cor 10:23, "Everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial. Everything is permissible, but not everything is constructive." I think both sides of these arguments - "traditional" and "progressive" - have an obligation to seek what is the most beneficial and constructive way to praise our God and seek the lost. And more times than not, that will look and be different depending on the circumstances. We all should refrain from trying force others to do and think exactly as we do.

Mark, I believe your observations to be correct. The only true church syndrome kicks in when you talk about love and grace. You see the legalist are afraid the denominations might have had some things right all along. The mentality is "protect the doctrine at all cost". We certainly cannot approve of anything they do, we cannot allow the unbelievers to think we agree with anyone but cofc. Now that there are so many divisions in the cofc, how do you possiblly know who has all truth to the exclusion of others. The right name above the door no longer means what they want it to mean. It has always been easy to love those who agree with us, but not so easy when they don't. What ever happened to "love your enemies"?