REVELATION: Past or Future, History or Prophecy

I have a good friend that accuses me of false teaching every time I send him new information to discern. It's gotten so annoying that I have decided to stop sending him anything.

The problem seams to be that a lot of my writing has to do with what appears to be for told in Revelation, a book in the Bible.

First, let me state clearly here that I do not do prophecy. I am not studied in nor am I gifted with this ability.

When I write or talk about what appears to be "apostate or one world churches", I am talking about history.

I have written about the "World Council of Churches" being a NGO of the United Nations. I have written about their published plan to form a "One World Government", and their plan to form a "One World Church"

I have written about their plan to bring all churches together using an ecumenical movement.(1)
http://www.propheticrevelation.com/misc/ecumove.htm

It doesn't take a prophet to see all the different Christian churches taking on Saddleback's
"40 days of Purpose" program, or other ecumenical programs like "Promise Keepers"

So when I say the "One World Church" is happening before your very eyes, I'm just repeating what others have said they are going to do, and they are doing it!

Some of my writings have mentioned the "antichrist".

History teaches us that "Alice Bailey" wrote many books from her "spirit guide", talking about the coming "christ savior". The problem is Alice Bailey worshiped Lucifer. Her publishing Company, The Lucis Trust, was formerly named the "Lucifer Publishing Company". Alice Bailey's christ is not your "Christ".

Today the United Nations arm Unesco is sponsored by the Lucis Trust.

I can only assume that Alice Bailey's christ is an antichrist.

I can further only assume that if Alice Bailiey's christ heads up the "One World Church" after it's formed, that he will be "the antichrist".

If any of this sounds like prophecy, it's not because I made it so.

One cannot study prophecy without studying history.

This unfortunately opens another trap.

History has been changed.

I believe it's been changed to keep you and I from testing prophecy.

There are many examples, but here is just one;

"Preterism (the belief that Revelation is about past events in the 1st century) was first advanced in 1604 by Jesuit Luis de Alcasar to destroy the Reformed Protestant teaching that the papacy was Mystery Babylon, the Great Whore and the historical Antichrist."
http://www.historicist.com/articles/Jesuitpreterism.htm

My message is this;

I'm no prophet, and one can not study or test prophecy without studying history. One cannot study history without being aware that history has been changed.

What's your opinion?

"Unlocking Revelation" by Stafford North, published by 21st Century Christian

An elder in the church of Christ, Dr. Stafford North provides seven "keys" with which readers may "unlock" the secrets of the book of Revelation in the Bible. While they serve as a suitable introduction to understanding the book, they do not unlock the whole story. Accordingly, North asserts that Revelation: (1) is written in symbolic language that should not be taken literally; (2) reveals only events that would shortly transpire in the era written (no end-time predictions); (3) was given simply to warn and to comfort Christians of the era about impending persecution; (4) identifies the "dragon" and two "beasts" respectively as Satan, the Roman Empire, and the cult of worshiping Roman emperors; (5) identifies the "harlot" as the city of Rome; (6) identifies the "1260 days" or "42 months" as a symbolic time period (not literally lasting 3.5 years) in which Christians of that era would be persecuted; and (7) identifies the Kingdom as the church, or God's people.

North is of the notion that, whereas Revelation's imagery and symbolism have defied definitive interpretation for two thousand years, first-century Christians would have experienced little difficulty with them. I find that hard to believe. Recall that Jesus' disciples often missed the meaning of His parables until He explained them in detail. And His parables were not nearly as complex as Revelation.

North's interpretation is rather simplistic and, as he admits, is primarily based on the prevailing views of commentators and religious scholars of today. While he provides plausible interpretations for some symbols as mentioned above, he tends to avoid any specific interpretations of the numerical symbols prevalent throughout. For example, 1260 days, 42 months, or "time, times, and the dividing of time" should not be interpreted as any specific duration of time, let alone 3.5 years. If not, then what? And the number 144,000 (12,000 saved from each of the 12 tribes of Israel) merely represents a full, "complete" number, not literally 144,000 people. Furthermore, the army of 200 million that will cross the Euphrates river is also not taken literally.

Most disappointing of all, North avoids any detailed discussion of 666, the number of the "beast," which is probably the most controversial element in Revelation. According to North, since the beast simply represents the Roman Empire, he believes that 666 probably refers to the Latin name of a Roman emperor like Caesar Nero, but he offers nothing to substantiate this. North also mentions nothing about other controversial groups which claim that the beast is the pope or the Roman Catholic Church, because of the Latin inscription, "Vicarivs Filii Dei" ("Vicar of the Son of God"), that is allegedly inscribed in the pope's mitre. Adding up the value of the Roman numerals in that inscription yields 666.

Surely these specific numbers have specific meanings and should not be ignored. Why else would they and other complex symbolisms appear? Therefore, probably more significant "keys" unlocking Revelation await discovery, yet neither North, myself, nor anyone else is likely to discern them anytime soon.

Dr. North must have been a Jesuit? Or was just another coC traditionalist that has no answers, but says stuff just to sound good, their just one step behind the baptist at being catholic.

If you want to understand Revelation, start at Romans 16:25-27 KJV. Then ask the HOLY SPIRIT to show it to you. Believe me, you're going to need it, very very soon.

But like I said "You can't unlock something that you DO NOT want to unlock" Question: How many earthquakes were there today. Answer: stevequayle.com


To God be the Glory
Joe McKnight


PS Moderator: At least post this in the Viper's Den

After spending 25 years in the cofc, I can honestly say, I have never heard anyone there teach Revelation with any enthusiam. Along with my fellow laymen, we were always eager to learn, but there was no meat there, only symbolism. I have since learned that a literal interpatation is the proper way. If it makes perfect sense the way it reads why look for any other sense. It is obvious that there is plenty of symbolism to deal with, but not everything is symbolic.

The cofc in it's early days actually had many people who were furturist (mostly pre-millenial with baptist connections), they were soon squashed. Litteral interpertation of the scripture hurts the cofc doctrine in many areas. The main one is the use of the OT, as you know we were taught that the ot was only good for history, and is largely ignored. Remember the alamo! In other words remember "we are new testament christians only". They teach that there is nothing left in prophecy to be fulfilled. They have it all wraped up in such a neat little package they never consider they could be wrong. If they did it would have a devastating effect on the "only true church" syndrome.

Welcome to the elect.

To God be the Glory
Joe McKnight

You speak of "fellow layman" in the CoC.
You say that you "spent twenty-five years in the CoC." Interesting, would you direct me to the passage in Scripture that speaks of "layman?" I have been in the Lord's church for over 35 years and have never heard the term used. Paul, in metaphorical language calls the members of the local church as parts of the human body: "eye, ear, nose, hand and foot," but never a "layman." Doesn't Jesus say that we are all to be "servants?" If not, then what is the meaning of Matthew 10:24,25: "The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord. It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much shall they call them of the household?"

Of course, if you are a servant, you obey because you "get to," not, because you "have to."
If you are "elected," you obey, because you "have to," not because you "get to."
In away, "election," is like the military draft, forced upon one. Do you believe the One who said "follow me" forced Himself upon any one? If so, would you direct me to the text?
JR

Therin, is the difference between a servant and a "hired hand."
JR

Praise God that progress is taking place...My grandmother threatened to disown me because I dared to share my premil. understanding of the prophetic word with her..Old time coc has a dogmatic stance in my experience at least. I was told by numerous ministers that preterism is truth..amillinielism is truth..and the truths I was "taught" choked the Word..tragic..thank you so much for the post..I really needed to hear what you said!! maranatha!

In Regards To Revelations; Are You A "Preterist" or a "Futurist"

Preterist believe the book of Revelation has already happened in the 1st century.

Futurest believe that the book of Revelation fortells prophecy yet to come.

Which are you? Take the poll!

http://www.network54.com/Votelet/40241

Greetings,
Thirty years ago the answer would be it has already happened. But in todays writing I see a lot of this borrowed and classified as "amil"

Richard

10 Questions to shoot down a preterist

First I want to define what a preterist is.
· Webster’s dictionary
Preterit: expressing past action or state. Bygone; former.

A Preterist is someone that thinks, or believes that Revelations has already been fulfilled and that there are no end time prophecies left to be fulfilled.

I started to write out all the “When did this happen?” questions, but the list got very long and I was still in the 7 seals. So I’m going to try to KISS it (Keep It Short and Sweet). Let me write out the question with a Revelations reference and then after the Questions I will give you the Second Witness verses. What I mean by Second Witness verse is: You interpret scripture with scripture and you need two witnesses to establish a matter (Deu. 17:6, 19:15 Matt. 18:16 II Cor. 13:1 I Tim. 5:19).

All right let’s get started:
1. Rev. 1:9 When did Jesus show John this revelation. Answer: 90-96 A.D.
2. Rev. 11:18, 14:14-20, 19:1-9, 20:12-15, 21:1-27, 22:1-21; Why are we still here? Answer: Revelations has not been fulfilled yet.
3. Rev. 12:14-16 When did the earth open up and help the children of Israel escape satan’s wrath? Answer: It has not yet, because Revelations has not been fulfilled yet.
4. Rev. 11:1-12 When did Elijah and Enoch come, killed and ascended while the whole world watched? Answer: They haven’t yet, because Revelations has not been fulfilled yet.
5. Rev. 19:11-19 When was Jesus’ second coming? Answer: He has not yet returned, because Revelations has not been fulfilled yet. (Get the idea?)
6. Rev. 14:14-16 When was the rapture? Did we miss it, were we left behind? Answer: Yes, we were left behind (Acts 1:6-11) No, you did not miss it, because Revelations has not been fulfilled yet.
7. Rev. 19:1-3 Why is Pope John Paul II pope? Answer: Revelations has not been fulfilled yet.
8. Rev. 13:16-18 Ok, if Revelations has already been fulfilled, will it be ok to take a micro-chip under the skin of my right hand. Answer: NO!, because Revelations has not been fulfilled yet.
9. Rev. 3:14 Are we in the Laodiceans Church age yet? Answer: Yes, because our Hirelings are waxing fat off of the sheep.
10. Rev. 15:4 When do all nations come and worship Jesus? Answer: They don’t yet, because…………


This is just a few questions, but enough to show you that Preteritism is full of holes.

It's late I will give you the Second Witness verses tomorrow.

To God be the Glory
Joe McKnight

There is no need to rehash the difficulties we have with the book of the Revelation. I do believe that we can understand its message without conjurring up all manner of mumbo-jumbo. A variety of charlatans have used Revelation to "prove" the most far-fetched doctrines imaginable. In order to have any true grasp of this book, one must do two things: 1) Gain a proper understanding of the historical context. 2) Develop some appreciation for Hebrew apocalyptic literature. With this in mind, one can reasonably conclude from study that the immediate prophecy of the book has indeed been fulfilled with the destruction of the Roman Empire. The book also points to the return of Christ and the judgment, which have yet to take place.

The Historical Context

Jesus made His Revelation to John during his exile on the island of Patmos (Rev. 1:9-11), most probably between 90-96 A.D. These things "must shortly take place" (Rev. 1:1). Those who read and heed the prophecy of the book would be blessed for "the time is near" (Rev. 1:3). So what was the setting for the prophecy? What was going on during this period of history? For one thing, the cult of emperor worship was beginning to pose a serious threat to the church and one will clearly discern this from the book. Diety status was commonly bestowed upon the Roman emperors following their death; however, Domitian (81-96 A.D.) proclaimed himself "dominus et deus" (Lord and God) and required worship from his subjects. Even though Nero had earlier led a persecution against the church in and around Rome, Domitian led an empire-wide persecution. Christians who refused to acknowledge him as God were subject to arrest, economic boycott, torture, and death (Rev. 13:5-10, 15-17). This was an immediate crisis for the church of Christ and the book of the Revelation was written to comfort those who were being persecuted and to encourage Christians to remain faithful.

John's home was in Ephesus and The Lord had him send the letter there originally and to six other centrally-located congregations (Rev. 1:11). These were strategically located so that all of the Christians in the area would have access to the letter. Keeping in mind that these events "must shortly take place", what good was it to write to agonizing Christians in the 1st and 2nd centuries about the papacy, Adolf Hiltler, nuclear weapons, and the like? Discounting the historical context surrounding this or any other book often leads to gross misinterpretation, which results in much theological nonsense.

Hebrew Apocalyptic Literature

For the vast majority of the books in the Bible, one can safely take most of what is written literally. However, most of the book of the Revelation must be taken figuratively. This does not make the book any less accurate; however, the hidden meaning must be determined. The reason why the Holy Spirit chose this method for the Revelation was to reveal the message to some while concealing it from others. A great deal of this writing style appeared among the Jewish people from 200 B.C. to 200 A.D. so this type of literature was not foreign to them. This style is also seen in Ezekiel, Daniel, and parts of Zechariah. Apocalypses appeared during difficult times to provide comfort with an optimistic message. Many of these were already in circulation by the time John received his message with the obvious difference being that his was inspired. The use of certain imagery, numbers, and symbols must be appreciated to discover their true meanings. One must always understand what this or any other scripture meant to its original audience. Obscure passages must be understood in the light of passages that are clear and not the other way around.

With all of that said, the message of the Revelation will always be relevant. Opposition and persecution will always exist in some form or another. Only the faithful (remnant) will overcome. Judgment is surely coming and we must always be ready. Satan and all evil often appear to be unstopable but the Revelation shows that he has already been defeated.

Mark Waggoner

SECOND WITNESS ANSWERS

1. John was on the isle of Patmos between 90 and 96 A.D. That was 20 to 26 years after 70 A.D. So, if Revelations was fulfilled in 70 A.D, that would make Revelations a history book, not a book of Prophecy.
· Rev. 1:3 Blessed he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy and keep these things which are written therein: for the time at hand.
· Rev. 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
· These two verses says Revelations is not a history book, but a book of prophecy. Therefore Revelations was not about 70 AD. It is about End Times, it is about what is to happen when the 6000 year lease of this world is complete, and this world is 6000 years old: Time is up. Watch for the signs of His coming Matt. 24:42 & Revelation 16:15. (Do a word study of the “Watch” and count the times that we are commanded to watch for the signs of His coming).
2. Questions 2 & 6 are related so let me answer 6 also.
· Rev. 11:18 The 7th Angel sound it’s trumpet, and it is time of the dead, that they would be Judged.
a. There are 3 times that dead are resurrected. Rev. 20:6 calls the resurrection, after the 1000-year Kingdom of Christ, the second resurrection; it is not including the resurrection of the First fruits at Christ’s crucifixion. I Cor. 15:23-24 gives the order of the resurrections: notice in verse 24 that the word “cometh” is in italics, thus it was added, so read it without the word “cometh”. Also, what happen to the Dead talked about in Matt.27:52. You really need to study the Feasts of the LORD (Lev.23), for they are the type and foreshadows of the two times that Jesus comes to earth. The Spring Feast was His first coming and the Fall Feast, His second coming.
· This is a good time to cover the “Rapture”. The Baptist call it the “Rapture” which means: caught up, so let’s start with I Cor. 15:51-54 and I Thess. 4:13-18. These two verses talk about when we meet Jesus in the sky. The real question is the timing of the “Rapture”. Notice the trumpet in the two verses, then go to Rev. 11:15, the seventh Angel, of the seven trumpets, sounded. Rev. 11,12,13,14, 15, &16 are chronically in order. Rev. 14:14-16 is the “Rapture”. Also look at Daniel 7:21-22, Matt 24:29-31 The “Rapture” is after the Tribulation, but before the 7 vials of wrath. Keep this in mind: In Rev. there are 7 seals, which go into the 7 trumpets, which go into 7 vials of wrath. Rev. 6:1 goes to Rev. 8:1 goes to Rev. 11:15 goes to Rev 15:6.
· There is one more verse I would like for you to keep in mind about why are we still here. II Peter 3:3-5 All of chapter 3 covers End Times prophecies, but verses 3,4, & 5 cover Pretertist.
· If Revelations has been fulfilled that means that Revelations chapters 20, 21 and 22 has been fulfilled also, Jesus has came back, ruled with a “Rod of Iron” (Ps. 2, Ps 110, Rev. 2,12,19) for a 1000 years, satan is no more, this earth has burned up and the “New Jerusalem” has came down, there is no more sun, moon, or stars. No more sorrow, no more tears, nor death. You can go to the river that flows out of the Throne, the river with the tree of Life on both sides. Revelation has not been fulfilled yet, but soon, for the day of the LORD is at hand.

3. This is a good one, it is very clear that Rev. 12 has not been fulfilled.
· Zech. 14:4 is the second witness of Rev. 12:14-16. Micah 4:8-10 is a third witness.
4. This is one of the two signs that I watch for. I watch for the building of the third Temple and the two witnesses, Elijah and Enoch.
· Malachi 4:5 “The Great and dreadful day of the LORD” has not come yet, but very soon.
· We are not told who the second witness is, but I think it will be Enoch. Remember Hebrews 9:27, Eccl. 3:20, and Gen. 3:19: Enoch did not die either.


The rest later, but not to later: for My HUSBAND cometh very soon.

To God be the Glory
Joe McKnight

5. Matt. 24:3, And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? And what the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
· This meeting is covered in Matt. 24 & 25, Mark 13, and Luke 17:20-37 &2121.
· Here let me do your “Watch” homework for you.
a. Matt. 24:25, 24:42, 25:13
b. Mark 13:33-37
c. Luke 12:36-39, 21:36
d. I Thess. 5:4-10
e. II Tim. 4:1-5
f. I Peter 4:7
g. Rev. 3:3, 16:15

6. I have answered 6, and I can’t get this computer to skip to 7.

7. If Revelations has been fulfilled, then we would have had a 1000 years of Jesus ruling over us (Rev. 20:1-4 ). A lot of preterist think that this Church age is Christ Kingdom, that the Church is the Kingdom. Well this is a good time to look at what the 1000 year Kingdom looks like, then you decide if this world, this time, looks anything like what the bible says the Kingdom is.
· Zech. 12, 13 & 14
· Isaiah 11, 60, 61, 64, 65, & 66
· Zeph. 3
· Joel 2, & 3

To God be the Glory
Joe McKnight

Joe,
If Christ did not set up His kingdom when He came than the New Birth is a farce. If He did set up His kingdom than the New Birth is a must. Joe, If no kingdom, "into" what are we born?

Do you realize if the the kingdom of Christ has not come, than you and I do not have the Holy Spirit?
If we do not have the Holy Spirit, we do not belong to God.

Recall the words of Jesus to His apostles in Mark 9:1:
"Verily I say unto you, that there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom come with power."
Joe, the "kingdom and power" were to come together.
If no kingdom, no power, no power, no Holy Spirit.

Keep in mind that Jesus later told these same men:"But you shall receive power after the Holy Spirit has come upon you...." Act 9:1. Joe, the apostles who heard Jesus speak these words (except Judas), all lived to see the "kingdom come with power" at Pentecost.
JR

Maybe someone did see the Kingdom come in power. Keep in mind that Jesus said "some of you will see" not "all of you will see." Maybe he was talking about John, he did write Revelation and saw quite a few things about the Kingdom of God. Just a thought.

John Rebman: I'm sorry I have not responded quicker, I don't know how your post got by me.

Which Kingdom of Christ are you talking about?

Joe McKnight

You MIGHT want to use the CORRECT spelling of the book to which you are referring! You might be more effective!!! Revelation has no "s" at the end!!

Thank you Rachel.

Though I do not think spelling Revelation corectly will help some to see the false teaching of the coC on Revelation.

I am so happy the Holy Spirit has shown me.

To God be the Glory
Joe McKnight