For quite some time, various threads at this site have included references to the “law of exclusion,” also known as the “law of silence.” Many maintain that it is a valid, biblical principle, whereas others maintain that it is pure heresy. Those who repudiate it further claim that it is merely a man-contrived invention of the Restoration Movement, particularly by members of the Church of Christ, to justify anything in the Scriptures about which they have a negative bias. The question, then, is this: Is the law of exclusion scriptural? Some definitions are in order. First, the law of exclusion defined:

“When a general command is given, everything embraced within that general command is authorized (unless a specific thing is expressly prohibited). When a command is specific, only that which is specified is authorized. Everything else is automatically excluded.”

The law of exclusion thus is derived from a combination of logic, common sense, and scriptural example. Only the actual name, “law of exclusion,” is man-made; the principle itself is hardly so.

Second, for any law or principle to be “scriptural,” it must meet at least one of three possible criteria:

1. It must be directly commanded by God or Christ.
2. It must be by apostolic example.
3. It must be by direct inference from scriptural example.

If a law or principle falls outside all three criteria, it comes from man and must be rejected. But if it meets any one of the criteria, it must be heeded, lest one be in rebellion against God and the Scriptures.

Therefore, (1) is the law of exclusion a direct command from God or Christ? Nowhere in the Bible is the specific phrase “law of exclusion” or “law of silence” ever commanded. (2) Is there apostolic example for the law of exclusion? No apostle ever referred specifically to such a law. (3) Can the law of exclusion be directly inferred from scriptural example? Yes, it can.

This law applies to general and specific commands. An example of a New Testament general command is the Great Commission, when Jesus said to “Go.” Since He did not specify by what means of transportation to use, Christians are at liberty to use whatever means of transportation are at their disposal. Example of Old Testament specific command: God commanded Noah to build the ark specifically out of gopher wood. Had Noah chosen another kind, he would have been in rebellion against God. All wood except gopher wood was instantly excluded, because God was specific. Example of New Testament specific command: Jesus instituted the Lord’s Supper with the emblems of bread and fruit of the vine. All other consumable emblems were instantly excluded, because Jesus was specific. To substitute cookies and milk, for example, would be to mock Jesus’ sacrifice and rebel against Him. Another New Testament specific example: Christ through Paul specified the type of music to use in worship: “sing” and “make melody in the heart.” Christ specified vocal music with melody made metaphorically on the strings of the heart. No mention was made of instrumental music, and thus it was instantly excluded; to use it is to rebel against Christ (for extensive arguments about music, see the thread “Boswell-Hardeman Discussion About Instrumental Music in the Worship,” for they will not be discussed further here).

Although the name “law of exclusion” does not appear in Scripture, application of its principle is easily inferred from scriptural examples; therefore, the law of exclusion is absolutely scriptural. The law of exclusion is a built-in safeguard against our doing anything which would add to or take away from God’s Word, about which He was most concerned and against which He specifically made just such a command. Despite this, people in rebellion against God will still attempt to discredit the law of exclusion by insisting that it “speaks where the Bible is silent,” that it is a creation of man. Repudiating the Scriptures, the rebellious have even claimed that a sinless Jesus participated in acts or situations which God the Father never authorized. With such, they say, “See, Jesus did thus and so beyond what God commanded; therefore, we have ‘liberty’ to do the same.” Such heretical accusations deny the deity of Christ and make a mockery of Scripture to justify their own amazing ingenuity for presumptuous behavior.

From time to time, people unwilling to face the fact that the law of exclusion is scriptural will try every technique possible to debunk it. A recent example elsewhere at this site even attempted to use the law against itself. But since Matt. 12:25 teaches that anything divided against itself cannot stand, those who would defeat the law of exclusion by using the law of exclusion against itself will find themselves defeated.

The example attempted to show that since God commanded Temple worship, synagogues were automatically excluded; whatever God specifically commanded would exclude everything else. (Of course, the ulterior motive for this attempt was to show that, since Jesus taught in synagogues, He participated in something that God had not commanded or authorized. And if this was true, then it would naturally follow that we would have the "liberty" to do the same.) The law of exclusion would hold true in this case, provided that the Bible had absolutely nothing to say about synagogues themselves. But since scriptural evidence has been presented elsewhere on this site which shows that God actually did authorize synagogues as well, the law of exclusion regarding Temple worship no longer applies.

THE LAW OF EXCLUSION CANNOT EXCLUDE THAT WHICH GOD AUTHORIZES.

As I stated in the introduction to this thread, the law of exclusion prohibits man from adding to or diminishing from God’s commands or authorizations; the only way to nullify or invalidate the law of exclusion in this case is to manipulate it to exclude that which God has indeed authorized; in short, create a lie. Nobody can expect to prove a law invalid by manipulating it against itself, for doing so only creates a lie.

The synagogue arguments and the scriptural evidence for their authorization are found in the thread “Q&A: Who Is Dividing the Church…” at the Madison Church forum.

Here are the KJV Scripture references for the four situations given in the introduction which serve to illustrate the law of exclusion.

1. Great Commission (general command): Mark 16:15.

2. Noah commanded to build ark exclusively from gopher wood: Gen. 6:14.

3. Bread and fruit of the vine exclusive emblems of Lord’s Supper: Matt. 26:26-29.

4. Vocal music exclusively commanded: Eph. 5:19; Col. 3:16.

Dr. Crump,

You impress me as a gnat strainer. All you seem to be concerned with is how the assembly worships 1 hour a week on the first day. Your defense of CENI is ludicrous. Do you not realize that we are to be doers of the word...not hearers? The message in the scriptures is for transformations of lives and actions of love...one towards another. The stuff you focus on is really preferences rather than principles.

Your study is so superficial in trying to defend. Let me just give one example. You talk about Jesus directing what should be used for LS...bread and wine. He had nothing to do with the choice other than being present when Jehovah God instituted the Passover. Jesus was just following the commands to celebrate. The loaf He took was the broken loaf that ends the Seder meal. Without it, one cannot complete the requirement that Godd commanded. The cup after the meal was the cup of redemption...the third of four consumed during the celebration. Both the bread and the cup are foreshadows of the coming Messiah within a commanded festival that was celebrated yearly, by command, since the Exodus from Egypt. All Jesus did was demonstrate His fullfillment in the festival. You know He is the Passover lamb....given once for the sins of man.

How much time do you spend each day meeting the needs of people to the point of sacrifice? Don't you think it's about time to get out of your seat and go into the street?

blessings
chuck
<><

Chuck,

Well, I guess if God took the trouble to number all the hairs on our heads (Matt. 10:30 KJV), then that makes Him a "gnat strainer," too. That shows that He very much pays attention to detail about everything about us and everything that we do. And that includes worship, outside works, everything else. What impresses me is that you take great exception to how we obey God's Word. This tells me that you have closed your eyes and ears to following His Word to the letter. By rejecting the law of exclusion, which is a biblical safeguard against adding to or diminishing from the Word, you tell us that you are determined to run roughshod over that Word, that you will do whatever you please in the Christian life. Very well, you certainly have the "liberty" to do that. But you risk running afoul of Christ.

If you think that the biblical law of exclusion applies only to Sunday worship, then you really have no spiritual concept of what God's Word really is. The law of exclusion literally applies to everything about the Christian life, for God's Word IS the Christian life. God has specifically commanded us not to tamper with His Word (Deut. 4:2 and Rev. 22:18-19 KJV). If we alter it in any form or fashion, we sin. The law of exclusion, when followed, insures that this does not happen.

You attempted to refute the law of exclusion with Jesus' example over the Lord's Supper. Yes, the bread and cup were part of the Passover. Had He wished, however, Jesus could have subtituted other emblems for the Lord's Supper, for He is Lord. Since He did not, then those emblems become specific, and nothing else may be substituted.

You want another example, which shows the consequences of disobeying God by rejecting the PRINCIPLE of the law of exclusion? Recall Nadab and Abihu, who offered "strange fire" before the Lord (Lev. 10:1-7) (Yes, the principle was very much alive then as it is now). They offered that which God had not SPECIFICALLY commanded, and God slew them for it. Now we could say, What did it matter where the fire came from for offering incense, and what did it matter who offered it? Fire is fire. Offering is offering. Obviously God was a "gnat strainer," for He took great exception about how that fire was offered, where it came from, and who offered it. Only a "gnat strainer" would slay men over a little fire, now isn't that true? You may also say, That's from the Old Testament, so it doesn't apply today. It's still an example of how God pays attention to minute detail. He slew men in OT days over fire; he numbers hairs of heads in the Gospel age. A real "gnat strainer" is God.

If God could slay men in Old Testament days over a seemingly trifling little matter of fire, don't you think that He becomes quite irked today when we do not follow His Word TO THE LETTER? That's just what happens when you reject the principle of law of exclusion. If not for the sacrifice of Christ, we would all have been consumed in a moment because of our disobedience to His Word.

Therefore, Chuck, I marvel that you fume and rant when we encourage others to obey God's Word by applying the law of exclusion. I marvel that you call it all "superficial." And I marvel that you have not once supported your views with Scripture except to throw that which I have quoted back in my face. If the law of exclusion were man-made, then you would have a right to object. But since it has been PROVEN to be scriptural by biblical example, why do you continue to reject it? Is it that difficult to embrace? Yes, it is, if you do not have the spirit of Christ within you to begin with. You say it's time for me to get out of my seat and go into the street. Please do not attempt to remove any little speck from my eye before you remove the beam from your own. Thus, regarding the Word, isn't it time for you to stop running roughshod and pay more attention to God?

Here's an assignment for Chuck or other interested parties. Since I have given a number of biblical examples that prove the scriptural validity of the law of exclusion, it's time for you detractors to do some work. Your assignment is to provide scriptural evidence that invalidates the law of exclusion. You rant, rave, and rail against it so much, it's high time that you proved its principle wrong. And you must do it with Scripture, for man's opinion is worthless.

As your defense, don't foolishly say that I am putting forth MY preferences as principles. Find Scripture that invalidates the law of exclusion.

As your defense, don't foolishly change the subject and assassinate my character. Find Scripture that invalidates the law of exclusion.

As your defense, don't foolishly say that I am nitpicking. Stay on the subject and find Scripture that invalidates the law of exclusion.

As your defense, don't foolishly attempt to invalidate any command that God or Christ has made, or commands They made through the apostles. That would violate God's command not to add to or diminish from His Word. God would not invalidate His own Word.

See what you can turn up.

Dr. Crump,

I didn't get a sentence or 2 into your reply before I started cutting and pasting.

"This tells me that you have closed your eyes and ears to following His Word to the letter"

Are we now under the Law again doc? I'm not going to spend much time with my reply, so forgive me for only picking a spot or 2.

HOW MUCH DID JESUS LEAVE OUT AT THE CROSS? WHAT PART DO YOU NEED TO ADD TO HIS SACRIFICE THAT GETS YOU BETTER STANDING WITH GOD? ARE YOU AWARE THAT THE BEST YOU OR I OR KEN OR DONNIE OR ANYONE ELSE HAS TO OFFER IS BUT USED MENSTRUAL CLOTHES AS FAR AS GOD IS CONCERNED? Is 64:6

Dr. Crump you seemed to be more interested in information than transformation. "If we alter it in any form or fashion, we sin. The law of exclusion, when followed, insures that this does not happen."

God's Word is a love letter according to Jesus. All the commandments are wrapped into one. You know which one I mean...love God...love man. I call it one commandment instead of 2 because I believe we love God by loving our neighbor. He was careful to reveal to us that just pointing to messages without caring for physical needs was sinful. 1Jn 3:17

Question Dr. Crump

Is it ok to use loaf bread instead of unleavened? unfermented juice instead of wine? I don't seem to see the CENI. I do see in Exodus and other places the rules for Passover observance. When did God do away with these festivals unto the Lord?

"
Therefore, Chuck, I marvel that you fume and rant when we encourage others to obey God's Word by applying the law of exclusion. I marvel that you call it all "superficial." And I marvel that you have not once supported your views with Scripture except to throw that which I have quoted back in my face. If the law of exclusion were man-made, then you would have a right to object."

You call it the LAW OF EXCLUSION but I prefer freedom in Christ. He reedemed me from sin and the bondage of the law. I see many in the fractured body with a variety of preferences. When they bind them on one another they outstep their bounds.

When we look at the redeemed from any practicing group, we usually see the same priciples upheld, and fruit in their lives beyond the written or spoken word.

"Thus, regarding the Word, isn't it time for you to stop running roughshod and pay more attention to God"

How do you know how I treat God's Word? All you see is a couple paragraphs on a page.

I extend the same offer to you that I give Donnie. Why don't you come with me and minister on the highways and byways sometime? I'll even give you a chance to teach from the Word and respond to Bible students that are hungry to ingest and apply God's principles. Just let me know where your interest is.

blessings
chuck
<><

ps...you don't know what ranting and fuming really is. the tone of my posts are straight forward, although at times sarcastic. I apologize if I have offended you.

Question Dr. Crump
Is it ok to use loaf bread instead of unleavened? unfermented juice instead of wine? I don't seem to see the CENI. I do see in Exodus and other places the rules for Passover observance. When did God do away with these festivals unto the Lord?

Chuck if I am not mistaken you are defending "Messianic Judaism." That means that you are not weaned from the LAW. You will remember that the Passover involved an innocent lamb and at the time of Jesus the Babylonian Passover was a FAMILY affair. Any wine in subsequent ANIMAL SACRIFICES would have been POURED OUT at the base of the altar.

Now, the bread and WINE was a tradition of the elders condemned by Jesus.

IF Jesus approved this the He commanded us to GET DRUNK.

"a man is bound to get so drunk with wine at Purim as not to know the difference between, 'Cursed is Naaman and Blessed is Mordecai.'" (Talmud, Megillah 2:7)

Jesus wanted to KEEP the Passover to do several things but ONE was to institute the Lord's Supper with the rare but expected FIFTH cup. The Babylon Jews believed that this would MARK the coming of the Forerunner. At this time the Psalm they would have sung would be 137 which would FINALLY "hang up the harps." The other event was to INDUCE the spirit of Satan into Judas--whose Judas Bag was for carrying the mouthpieces of wind instruments prophesied of in Psalm 41--by doing the SOP for Judas which means to grind into a powder.

The TRUE PASSOVER was never bread and get-the-kids stoned on REAL wine but an ANIMAL. Jesus IS our Passover and we ARE EXCLUDED from drinking Kosher WINE by the rare term FRUIT OF THE VINE. If Jesus IS our Passover it would be to JUDAIZE to keep the literal BABYLONIAN [i.e. pagan] PASSOVER or to slaughter an innocent lamb on the Lord's Table.

Jesus FULFILLED the animal passover by HIS OWN BLOOD. He instituted the LORD'S SUPPER because the CHRISTIAN Messiah does not feed kids til the MANDATORY drunkeness of the BABYLONIAN PASSOVER. So-called "Messianic Jews" who keep the Babylonian Passover want to claim Jesus as THEIR messiah but JEWISH ROOTS wants to insist that He did not change from "The Law added because of transgression" that transgression being musical idolatry at Mount Sinai where God TURNED THEM OVER to worship the heavenly host in Babylon. That sentence began to be executed when the elders demanded a NATIONAL king so that they could WORSHIP like the nations.

It is NOT legalism to obey the Word of God: Jesus NEVER condemned obeying TRUE laws but rather those who REJECTED God's exclusion when He INCLUDED. The Pharisees were condemned BECAUSE they took the liberty to MAKE EXCEPTIONS specifically SO THAT they did not have to obey God's provision. It is LEGALISM to think that you can SUBSTITUTE lard, sugar, yeast etc. SO that you can PROVE that you can do YOUR OWN THING. To their credit the Hassidim made a great effort to QUARANTINE the people from the temple.

The FESTIVALS were for DRAFT AGED men only. To keep the BABYLONIAN Passover you have to be a STAR GAZER and that would never match up with OUR CALENDER. That is why Paul's FEAR of those who still keep times and seasons was justified. KEEPING the festivals FULFILLED by Jehovah in Christ is TRUE LEGALISM. Proving that I DON'T HAV-TA is the meaning of Pharisee.

http://www.piney.com/Maxey-Silence-Passover.html

Jesus claimed to be the WATER and the LIGHT and the PASSOVER and in MANY of his "acted parables" directly repudiated BABYLONIANISM. Too bad we are so busy trying to be CLIMACTIC with the spirit that we have just been BLINDED to things like the fact that the Jew's MESSIAH was hoped to be Dionysus and thus the processional on the DONKEY which has several hidden TELEGRAPHIC MESSAGES which the SOUNDERS are trying with all of their little perverted hearts to DROWN OUT.

"Messianic Jews" are still Jews and if they observe the PASSOVER they are practicing a Babylonian religion. Christians reject the Law of Moses--imposed because of transgression--and the TRADITIONS of the elders Jesus repudiated. Those who lust to find Hebrew Roots will NOT grow a church of Christ or SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE. Those AWAKE with their clothes with them will hear Jesus agreeing that the clergy caste in Jerusalem were indeed CHILDREN of Abraham but they were NOT Israelites. True children of Israel leap frog over both the LAW OF MOSES and the TRADITIONS of the fathers as Babylonianism and have the FAITH of Abraham.

Ken

Ken

Ken, I think you've hit the nail on the head. Chuck hasn't told us in so many words that he practices Messianic Judaism, and we certainly don't want to jump to conclusions. But his keen interest in the specific details of the Passover, coupled with his implication that God did not abolish all the feasts of the Mosaic Law with the ultmate sacrifice of Christ, would certainly make us believe that he does.

Bill,

You jumped at Ken's prompting!

Remember what happens when we ASSUME?

I was raised as an orthodox Jew. I grew up in these festivals, so Im very familiar with them and their observance.

The foreshadow of Messiah is throughout the OT. There is great value in understanding the foundation that Jehovah God built through the Abrahamic and Mosaic covenants. We are not bound by them, as we are not bound by any laws except those commanded by Jesus.

Indulge me for a moment and reflect on the laws. We started with one in the garden...don't eat from that tree. Then we got 10 at Mt. Sinai. The lawyers turned them into 613 by Jesus time. He took us back to one about how we love God and man. The biblical scholars continue how to create that righteous checklist. The funny thing is our country has 10's of thousands of laws...how many did you break today...I'm guilty!

blessings
chuck
<")))><

Chuck,

Your words: "We are not bound by any laws except by those commanded by Jesus." They, of course, include those which He gave through the apostles. Good! That's exactly what the law (perhaps "principle" would be less odious to you than "law") of exclusion insures, that we don't tamper with God's/Jesus' commands (His Word) by adding anything to them out of our own preferences or by taking anything away from them because of our prejudices. That's what we've been trying to get across all along. You're slowly getting the point!

Bill,

I don't appreciate the condescension. Trust me, I have as good an understanding of the message as you do...probably better. Let me ask this question one more time.

Is the Word given us for information on how to love God and love man, or is it to point us to Jesus who will obliterate our sin and transform us through His Holy Spirit?

A one choice answer would be appreciated.

1) information

2) transformation

blessings
chuck
<")))><

Ken,

Where was Jesus and what was he celebrating in Mt 26:17-30, Mk 14:12-26, Lk 22:7-30 and Jn 13:1-3o?

Bill asked me a question about silence using CENI...I tried to respond to his misunderstanding of the circumstances at LS...or maybe just was explaining what Jesus was doing at the time. He apparently didn't realize that Jesus was Sedering. You do know that most Christians have no idea that He was celebrating the Passover according to law and tradition.

Ken...could you just answer the one question first...where was He and what was He doing?

"Chuck if I am not mistaken you are defending "Messianic Judaism."

You are mistaken ken. My question was the relevance of the particular type of produce used by Jesus. How specific are the requirements in what we use today? We have much in scripture that explains just what to use.

blessings
<")))><

Ken,

Your math is faulty!

"Jesus wanted to KEEP the Passover to do several things but ONE was to institute the Lord's Supper with the rare but expected FIFTH cup."

If you take the time to read the Hagaddah, the Passover festival order of traditon that Jesus most likely follwed in the upper room, you would notice that the cup He prayed over as our LS is the third cup. If you folow the Exodus story from the Word you will notice that each cup of wine has a specific name. Sanctification, Deliverance, Redemption, Acceptance are the 4. The 5th would be the cup for Elijah, the forerunner of Messiah Jesus. He came as JTB and will probably come again before Jesus' return for His Body.

The only place in the Passover celebration where bread and wine were consumed right after each other was the end of the meal (this would have been the lamb dinner on the first Passover).

Notice the KJV verses following:


Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake [it], and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup [is] the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

Don't you find it fitting that He would celebrate with the loaf that was broken early in the feast, followed by the cup of Redemption?

Jesus truly is the fullfilment of this festival, as He is in the other 2 that are commanded for the DRAFT AGE MALES as you call them.

I like what Paul states in his later writings:


1Cr 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
1Cr 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened [bread] of sincerity and truth.

Out of time for now guys.

blessings for a great weekend of service for Him!

chuck
<")))><

Chuck,

Are you not going to accept the assignment that I gave? If you cannot find, or refuse to find, Scripture which invalidates the law of exclusion, then please go your way and hold your peace.

Well, you changed the subject, as I surmised you would. Can you not stay on the subject at hand? Liberty in Christ. Do you not know that the ONLY liberty that the Christian has is the liberty to obey the absolute authority of God, which is His Word, or the liberty not to? What do you think Paul was talking about when he expounded on “liberty” in Gal. 5:1-6? He was talking about liberty from the rituals and procedures of the Mosaic Law, not liberty to do as we please. Yet a monstrous fallacy of the Change Movement is to say, “When Paul talks of ‘liberty,’ he grants that we may do as we please.” Why think you that strictly obeying the Word is like being under the Mosaic Law again? Because it doesn’t give you unrestricted liberty to do as you please? Surely you are not saying that we have “liberty” to obey some of the Word and discard other parts of it at will, if it seems “disputable” to us.

Mentioning the Mosaic Law now brings us back to the Passover. Are you still observing the formal Passover today? If I understand you correctly, you asked where did God do away with this and all the other feasts in the Mosaic Law? If we are free from the Law, then we are free from all its rituals, sacrifices, and feasts, including the formal Passover, for Christ became the ultimate and final Passover Lamb. But if we stick to one part of the Law, then we become a debtor to the rest of the Law as Paul said, and Christ has become of no effect (Gal. 5:1-6). We would also be required to worship on Saturday, according to the Mosaic Law.

You seem to concentrate more on going into the streets to preach. That’s fine and wonderful, but what does that have to do with this specific thread? Why change the subject? You further imply that my spreading the Word on the Internet via my “seat” is ineffective, that I must be “out in the streets” somewhere else. Does the Internet not reach potentially millions at one shot? Your calling is to go into the streets. But mine is the Internet. Again, you attempt to remove the speck from my eye while the beam remains in yours. You know not whether I am even able to be out somewhere. Is it not possible that I could be crippled, a paraplegic, or otherwise disabled? Why make foolish assumptions? Better yet, what would even prompt a Christian to be sarcastic?

Love and good works. Certainly fine and great again, but how many times do you intend to change the subject? Jesus warned that even these will come to naught unless we do the will of God, which certainly includes absolute obedience to His Word (Matt. 7:21-23). And His Word engulfs the entire Christian life. That’s basic.

Now please either stick to the subject of the assignment or go in peace.

Bill,

Have I tended to my assignment as you call it? Let's see if I can play through this one for a moment.

"Mentioning the Mosaic Law now brings us back to the Passover. Are you still observing the formal Passover today?"

No I don't Bill, however, last year I invited my church family to a Seder similar to how I grew up, but with the fulfillments of Messiah Jesus revealed through the celebration. We had 126 in attendance for the celebration which included a 5 course meal. At the point of finishing the food portion of the celebration we observed the LS at the precise timing that Jesus did, to the best of our record in the Word.

Some amazing things happened that night as we watched all in attendance serve the food and clean the tables without being asked. You remember where your and my discourse started with David Hardin's post on another thread? David, his wife Kathy and their 8 children were all in attendance. I marvel at this Godly family from months to teens and parents. They are a model of Christian living and how parents successfully raise children in Christ. Tears come to my eyes at this moment as I reflect on those of his kids he has baptized who have accepted Christ's sacrifice. I look forward to seeing the rest as they come. PTI...It was great to watch a family of 10 serving the needs of others, while participating in a 3 hour + celebration.

This year we are moving the Seder to a buffet restaurant that accomodates 200. We have invited another congregation from Franklin to join us. If you, Donnie, Ken, Bobby, David or others are interested, I'll get you some reservations. It would be a great time of fellowship, swallowship and worship, while learning more about our heritage and foundations of belief. It will be April 23, 2005. Even though easter is celebrated a month earlier, we continue to follow the 15th of Nisan in the Hebrew calendar. I'm still amazed that the church doesn't at least celebrate easter in a timely fashion regarding Passover. We do know when Passover is each year for sure.

"Surely you are not saying that we have “liberty” to obey some of the Word and discard other parts of it at will, if it seems “disputable” to us."

You mentioned Paul's teaching in Gal 5. Judaizers were trying to bind the law on the Christians. That's wrong for sure.

How do you deal with CENI when applying it to apostolic teaching? If I remember correctly you say we are to follow the teaching of the aposltes just like the commands of Jehovah God and Messiah Jesus. For example Ac 20:7 gives us first day worship instead of sabbath worship. I know that 1st century history reveals that the church fellowshipped on the 1st day.

What about this one?

1Cr 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
1Cr 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened [bread] of sincerity and truth.

I know that Paul is teaching about sin in the assembly before and after this verse. Applying CENI here, isn't there enough evidence to believe that these people in Greece know enough about Passover to apply it to principle? When he says to celebrate, is there enough evidence to realize that they still celebrated the Passover? If not, why didn't Paul just talk about LS? If you apply CENI as you do in other places regarding your law of silence or exclusion, why can't you apply it here as to required celebration of the feast? Don't tell me that we do celebrate LS. This speaks to Passover in a foreign land that was non Jewish...1,000 miles away or more.

"You further imply that my spreading the Word on the Internet via my “seat” is ineffective, that I must be “out in the streets” somewhere else. Does the Internet not reach potentially millions at one shot? Your calling is to go into the streets. But mine is the Internet"

Where else on the internet do you minister or reach out? Please don't even try to say here. Remember, this site's total purpose began in continuing the fracture of one of the Lord's assemblies. Nobody comes here to meet Messiah Jesus. Even Ken has his own location with valuable teaching for those that can sift through the volumes.

I've been at Madison since the late 80's. Have you ever been there? I've witnessed the decline in membership since day one. They were already on the decline in head count due to a variety of factors. The main factor was geographical demographics. The community has changed from suburban to urban...upper middle to something lower...we are surrounded by a large Hispanic community that we are attempting now to serve. To quote one of the former preachers at Madison, "the pioneers of the 50's and 60's have turned into the settlers...they have chosen more peaceful and comfortable surroundings in the area...they had difficulty passing the banner to the next generation."

I look forward to your responses.

blessings
chuck
<")))><

Well, darn, Chuck we always knew that it was JUDAIZING which caused the women just clean up after meals: too bad, Christian women, that you are so deprived. So, now we know why Dave is so DESPERATE to have Jesus do something NOT BIBLICAL because your SEDER is both unbiblical and ANTI- Christian. I hope someone calls the cops on all of the feeding wine to children just like in Babylon. Did I tell you that the evidence I have read on Rabinnic law says that you CANNOT have sex with a girl until she is six years old. I just read the Babylonian Talmud that you can have sex with a THREE YEAR OLD. But, "why does she bleed?" Answer: "Cause her maidenhead regrows itself."

Chuck THAT is why Jesus spoke parables to the leaders who were more Babylonian than Jewish because THAT is what they requested along with a KING LIKE THE NATIONS so that they could WORSHIP like the nations. The answer was that Jesus DIDN'T WANT them to understand the spiritual kingdom.

Seder: After all have washed their hands, the master of the seder presents celery or another raw vegetable (karpas) dipped in vinegar or salt water to all participants. Then a shank bone, symbolic of the Paschal lamb eaten in ancient times, and (commonly) a hard-boiled egg, symbolic of God's loving kindness (or, according to some, a mournful reminder of the destruction of the TEMPLE of JERUSALEM), are removed from the seder plate, while all recite a prayer.

As we have noted, this EATING FLESH is a direct repudiation of the fact that Jesus Christ IS our Passover and too bad that you keep on SLAYING and roasting and eating Him.

Well, Jesus promised to SMASH the temple again by His permissive will and I have told you that Jerusalem was a Jebusite High place and is called SODOM. The Jews WORSHIPPED the temple more than God and that is why they killed Jesus because they believed that He came to destroy their LAW and their PLACE. They also killed Stephen when he said that the temple was a CONCESSION to David and had NOT been in God's plans. He told them that they had been abandoned to WORSHIP THE STARRY HOST.

People believed that they could sin all they wished and then go and cry out "the temple of the Lord the temple of the Lord" and everything would be forgiven. The temple was always subject to PAGAN IDOLATRY and was a den of thieves and a house of merchandise. Shucks, we now have Wall Street.

You also remember that the DISCIPLES of Jesus were not caught up in the HAND WASHING SUPERSTITION which would NEGATE their rise above pagan superstition which came from the same place as the Babylon Passover.

I hope that David isn't joining you in MOURNING that Jerusalem and its temple was destroyed because CHRISTIANS have joined into a HEAVENLY JERUSALEM and the TEMPLE is the place of their HUMAN SPIRIT into which no PAGAN rituals of superstition can enter.

I told you, Chuck, that the FOUR cups of wine was to feed intoxicants to the CHILDREN--God help you if someone turns your SEDERING in to the cops! Seems like this is something VALUABLE you need to make proselytes too.

The fifth cup was reserved for the time of ELIJAH who would be the forerunner to Messiah. If Jesus didn't institute the LORD'S SUPPER with "unfermented fruit of the vine" then His clear statement about Elijah was just plain stupid. Those who substitute FERMENTED WINE and drink it VIOLATE the law about pouring out intoxicants and AFFIRM the Babylonian worship Israel lusted after in demanding a king.

And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. Matt 11:12

For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. Matt 11:13

Whammo, fish head, Jesus came to fulfill which means to FILL FULL all of the prophesies AFTER WHICH the Law would be Abrogated just as a mortgage which has been paid off is NULL AND VOID.

And if ye will receive it, this is Elijah, which was for to come. Matt 11:14

He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. Matt 11:15

And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? Matt 17:10

And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. Matt 17:11


And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought. Mark 9:12


But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. LIKEWISE shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Matt 17:12

Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist. Matt 17:13

If you DENY that John was the Elijah prophesied , and deny that Jesus was the CHRIST OF GOD with power to do His will, they WHY do you think that the time has come if some HIPPIE WEARING A HAIR ROBE EATING LOCUSTS is gonna be YOUR man?

The Jews denied that John was Elijah and Jesus was Messiah: so they were both killed. They were BLIND and DEAF and I know not how you can SEDER hoping that John the Baptist will DROP IN to announce Christ's FIRST ADVENT and be a believer. I assuredly can understand why you feel the need to proselyte.

You HAVE TO spit in the face of Jesus who CLAIMED that John had dome and there is no other reason for a SPECIAL Passover event while the NORMAL FOLK were killing lambs. There is NO evidence that Jesus participated in the modern SEDER or ate rosted lamb because it is just new TRADITIONS OF THE ELDERS which are POST BIBLICAL.

Chuck, no one questions that you are a religious Jew but most would doubt that you are an ethnic Jew any more than I am an ethnic French. [praise God]. I would not believe that you are a Christian or you would not be trying to subvert people to the TRADITIONS OF THE FATHERS which Jesus said were added by the Pharisees SO THAT they would not have to obey God.

However, the term MESSIANIC JEW means that they refuse to be just a Christian. They were blind and deaf from Mount Sinai onward when they TURNED to worship the Egyptian or Babylonian trinity with music. They refused to honor God at Mount Sinai and refused to honor Jesus or Joshua or Jehovah- Saves or the Christ of God. If I wanted to RESTORE Judaism I might also claim to believe in YOUR Messiah although I don't know who would want such a powerless wimp.

You STILL refuse to accept that Jesus HAD THE POWER to establish His 100% Spiritual kingdom and make the same Jewish mistakes by thinking that there will be a TRUE Messiah who will some day have the power. However, to be consistent you should slaughter an animal and roast and eat it. Otherwise your SEDERING is just a continuing of BABYLONIANISM. I hope that you SPLASH some real blood on the doorway to SUBSTITUTE for the blood of Jesus Christ.

I hope that David will read this and try to determine whether he is being indoctrinated into Jewish culture or SUBVERTED into the faith of the Monarchy and Jerusalem clergy who WERE NOT Israelites. I assume that he enjoys sending children to CANAAN LAND but are you ready to deny that Jesus was the Christ the Son of God and that John the Baptist WAS the Elijah prophesied and POINTED TO when Jesus used UNFERMENTED fruit of the vine.

Seder: When all have eaten and recited grace, a third cup of wine is poured to express thanksgiving to God. As the ritual moves toward its conclusion, psalms of praise (Hallel, previously read in part) are recited in unison and a fourth cup of wine is poured to acknowledge God's loving Providence. Some add a FIFTH CUP of wine (which is NOT drunk) in honour of Elijah, whose appearance at some FUTURE SEDER will signify the ADVENT of the MESSIAH.

The prepared answers, recited by all in unison, give a spiritual interpretation to the customs, even though some aspects of the feast were doubtless copied from GRECO-ROMAN BANQUETS

Jesus DID NOT drink of this cup. He would drink it in the Kingdom when the twos and threes gather in His name. Therefore, you are still on the FAR side of the cross expecting a TRUE Messiah because you demonstrate to all that you DENY that Jesus Christ was the Messiah and that His FIRST ADVENT went off perfectly because He died to found a "school of the Bible" and NOT to institute pagan rituals which TAKE THE MIND OFF Christ and His Word.

Yet, this is consistent with the rest of the INFILTRATE and DIVERT. The "believers" could grasp your superstitious ritulas WITHOUT participating and therefore COMMITTING the same fallacy which caused Jesus to REFUSE to speak to them anymore. Too bad, but as in Amos, God "will not pass the way again."

I see this as a continuing effort to cause Jesus Christ to SUFFER over and over something like the Catholic Mass and "believer's baptism" both of which deny the FIRST sacrifice of Christ.

Ken

Bill,

While noticing your desire for me to follow some sort of assignment, I came across the following statement you made.

" Had He wished, however, Jesus could have subtituted other emblems for the Lord's Supper, for He is Lord."

Exd 12:8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; [and] with bitter [herbs] they shall eat it.

Exd 12:14 And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.

Wasn't the fact that made Jesus the Messiah His sinlessness or perfection? Do you honestly think He could have decided to change things that were commands of Jehovah God?

Notice Lev 23:6, Num 28:17, Deu 16:3 and here is Ken's reference to the 3 festival requirements for males of age...Deu 16:16

"You attempted to refute the law of exclusion with Jesus' example over the Lord's Supper."

I don't see a law of exclusion as you call it. Like Eddie said in another post, could you show it to me? We can take bits and pieces of the Word and make it say anything we wish. The part that I try to stay focused on is that the law was made to point to man's inabilities, not to save him. Just like Jesus said about the Sabbath, it was made for man, not man for it.(Mk 2:27) All of God's Word is for our benefit with the message being His incredible, unconditional and eternal love for us His children. I would love to be a perfect doer of His Word. Unfortunately, as long as I inhabit this flesh tent, I'm destined for daily failure. Praise Him for a Savior, Counselor and Comforter that mediates on my behalf and assists me in rightly dividing His Word for continual transformation into the likeness of Messiah Jesus.

"If God could slay men in Old Testament days over a seemingly trifling little matter of fire, don't you think that He becomes quite irked today when we do not follow His Word TO THE LETTER?"

Do you have a checklist or something to go by? I don't. I have a model to emulate named Jesus. Thank God that He came to pay the price for my inadequacies. Without His complete payment I'm hopeless. Is there anything that you can do in additon to what He has done for you? Like follow a checklist or something? I can't.

"You say it's time for me to get out of my seat and go into the street. Please do not attempt to remove any little speck from my eye before you remove the beam from your own."

Why do I feel like the one that you guys are trying to hold to a perceived standard? We both have specks and beams in our eyes because of our imperfection. That's our destiny for our entire human experience. Wouldn't it be great if we stopped trying to tell each other how to do it right according to our beliefs, but instead shared the great things we have seen God do in transforming the lives of others. Do you have any of these type testimonies? Does it matter to you? How much?

blessings
chuck
<")))><

Chuck,

Every debate reaches a point when it becomes clear that neither side is about to yield to the other, no matter how much longer it proceeds. That point is now. For an excellent example of that in history, read the classic "Boswell-Hardeman Discussion on Instrumental Music in the Worship," which went on for five nights in 1923. Boswel did his best to show that instruments were scriptural, and Hardeman did his best to show that they were not. Neither side conceded, yet much information was presented for discerning souls to digest. I hope that has been the case here.

We could continue to argue endlessly about the law of exclusion. I have given you biblical example after biblical example that proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that this law or principle is quite scriptural, and you have done your very best to deny it. You still look for something specifically written out in the Bible that says, "Here is the law of exclusion." I've been very honest and told you that you won't find it. You have closed your eyes, and you will continue to close your eyes, to the obvious PRINCIPLE that is clearly present in many biblical examples. Very well, I cannot force you to see it, and I'm certainly not going to condemn you either for your honest inability to see it or your deliberate refusal to see it. But since there are multitudes of others who view this web site, I have confidence that many of them will be able to see it. Unfortunately, the ones who seem more likely to respond are a few detractors who roam around like a roaring lion (where have we heard that before), eagerly lying in wait to challenge that which is obviously scriptural. But even Jesus could not convince all to accept Him.

I now move on to create a thread about "liberty in Christ," a principle which is also twisted and abused by those who are in rebellion against Christ.

BTW, you kept fixating on the emblems of the Lord's Supper, saying that Jesus could never have changed anything about the Passover, because of Jehovah God. Whom do you think Jesus was in the flesh?

Blessings to you also, friend.

The Christ of God in Jesus of Nazareth was God's "only begotten" or "only beloved" Son of God. It is His blood which causes God to Passover us so that we can be "baptized" in the Red Sea and be guided by the Spirit of God on the OTHER side of the water. This Passover was to save the firstborn of all flesh AND to execute judgment against the GODS of Egypt just as the Passover Jesus observed JUDGED Satan by forcing Judas out to self-execution. Again, the Judas Bag was "for carrying the mouthpieces or reeds of wind instruments" which Psalm 41 predicts that Judas would try to TRIUMPH OVER or ALARM Jesus.

For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord. Exod 12:12

And the blood shall be to you for a TOKEN upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt. Exod 12:13

And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the Lord throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever. Exod 12:14

For ever does not mean for ever but for a stated period-terminus or duration:

Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever. Ex.21:6

Seven days shall there be no leaven found in your houses: for whosoever eateth that which is leavened, even that soul shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he be a stranger, or born in the land. Exod 12:19

Ye shall eat nothing leavened; in all your habitations shall ye eat unleavened bread. Exod 12:20

And the Lord said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof. Exod 12:43

Anyone NOT an Israelite would be a stranger: if he ate the Passover his whole family would have to be CIRCUMCISED. The "predestinated" plan of God was to break down racial barriers. Christians MUST believe that there is NEITHER Jew nor Gentile. Therefore, NO ONE can observe the PASSOVER or killing, sprinkling, roasting and eating for seven days WITHOUT repudiating its FULFILLMENT in Christ Jesus. That does not mean that you don't have a right to your belief but they are NOT consistent with being a Christian any more than the TITHE, leading the kiddies into Canaan Land, letting the Preacher believe that he is a PRIESTS deserving the Tithe or the "musical performers" with no other "authority" but that of the Levitical Warrior Musicians.

When the Jews returned from Babylon they DID NOT keep the Babylonian "Passover" because that would have been UNLAWFUL and EXCLUDED. At the same time, when God commanded ANIMAL SACRIFICES He did not say: "Thou SHALT NOT get drunk on wine." The returnees understood that when God ASSUMES authority faithful man does NOT presume:

And they set the priests in their divisions, and the Levites in their courses, for the service [hard bondage] of God, which is at Jerusalem; as it is written in the book of Moses. Ezra 6:18

And the children of the captivity kept the passover upon the fourteenth day of the first month . Ezra 6:19

God did not say: "Thou shalt NOT keep the Babylonian Passover EACH FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK." Notice that you SLAY the Passover but you keep the feast of unleaven bread seven days--NOT in the "Kingdom of Christ" each Lord's day:

For the priests and the Levites were purified together, all of them were pure, and killed the passover for all the children of the captivity, and for their brethren the priests, and for themselves. Ezra 6:20

Someone has told us that the Musical Team or Levites eat the Lord's Supper BEFORE the others. This allows them to DO SERVICE by singing while the others are TRYING to remember the Death of Jesus. John Mark Hicks (aka Lipscomb, Shelly etal) claims that the Lord's Supper should be a SACRIFICIAL FEAST with JUBILATING because God EATS with us as we BURN THE FAT! I think that He is BURNING us when we CHEW the fat.

And the children of Israel, which were come again out of captivity, and all such as had separated themselves unto them from the filthiness of the heathen of the land, to seek the Lord God of Israel, did eat, Ezra 6:21

And kept the feast of unleavened bread seven days with joy: for the Lord had made them joyful, and turned the heart of the king of Assyria unto them, to strengthen their hands in the work of the house of God, the God of Israel. Ezra 6:22

Ezekiel also defines the LEGAL passover which is an ANIMAL and SHED blood and not eating bread and horseradish.

In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month,

ye shall have the passover, a feast of seven days;
unleavened bread shall be eaten. Ezek 45:21

And upon that day shall the prince prepare for himself and for all the people of the land a bullock for a SIN offering. Ezek 45:22

And seven days of the feast he shall prepare a burnt offering to the Lord, seven bullocks and seven rams without blemish daily the seven days; and a kid of the goats daily for a sin offering. Ezek 45:23

And he shall prepare a meat offering of an ephah for a bullock, and an ephah for a ram, and an hin of oil for an ephah. Ezek 45:24

In the seventh month, in the fifteenth day of the month, shall he do the like in the feast of the seven days, according to the sin offering, according to the burnt offering, and according to the meat offering, and according to the oil. Ezek 45:25

On the DAY of the killing of the PASSOVER they observed the unleavened bread part: I know of no evidence that they killed an animal for Jesus, roasted it and did so for seven days. Therefore, the FOREVER of the literal Jewish Passover came to an end then and there because JESUS had already been chosen as the passover lamb:

Then came the day of unleavened bread,
when the passover must be killed. Luke 22:7

And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat. Luke 22:8

And they said unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare? Luke 22:9

And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him. Luke 22: 14

For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God. Luke 22: 16

And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves: Luke 22: 17

That is a fact: they PROPORTIONED IT AMOUNG THEMSELVES before they SUPPED. This was the specific time when Judas being "filled with Satan" would lay his hand on Jesus to identify the Lamb which the priests would SLAY and the TERMINATION Passover for ALL spiritual Israelites.

For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come. Luke 22: 18


AND he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power. Mk 9:1

That kingdom came with POWER on the day of Pentecost and the 12 apostles used the KEYS to the kingdom to open it to all 12 tribes and later to ALL NATIONS.

And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Luke 22: 19

Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. Luke 22: 20

But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table. Luke 22: 21

The argument began about leadership in an EARTHLY KINGDOM:

For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth. Luke 22: 27

Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations. Luke 22: 28

And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; Luke 22: 29

That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Luke 22: 30

The kingdom of God IS WITHIN YOU so we should not look for a POLITICAL kingdom where Jesus will ride a white horse in Jerusalem (called Egypt, Hagar, Bondage, Sodom) so that ethnic Jews will rule the world.

Paul DID NOT understand Jesus to command the literal Passover but a MEMORIAL of Himself and His death as THE true Passover Lamb.

Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 1 Cor 5:6

Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover IS sacrificed for us: 1 Cor 5:7

Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 1 Cor 5:8

The Passover pointed to the fact that the Israelites DESERVED to remain in Jerusalem and self-destruct. However, by GRACE God removed them. The Lord's Supper is where God in Christ SERVES and is related to the NEW PLACE of the human spirit.

The Babylonians and those returnees who followed the Babylonian Talmud DID NOT follow the Law to sprinkle or POUR OUT fermented wine but made even little children GET DRUNK unless it made them violently ill: even so, they watered the INTOXICATING, fermented [seor] poison. Those who followed the Word of God restored ANIMAL SACRIFICES.

Therefore, rather than EATING flesh and DRINKING blood (replaced with alcohol) Jesus said:

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. John 6:53

What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? John 6:62

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the WORDS that I speak unto you, they are SPIRIT, and they are LIFE. John 6:63

Therefore, the institution of the Lord's Supper SKIPPED the literal killing of a lamb and DID NOT follow the Law of the Babylonian Passover. Nor do we have any clue about eating FLESH and bitter herbs. Paul made the Lord's Supper a MEMORIAL to "show forth" or PREACH the death of Christ: while you participate in the UNLEAVENED BREAD part you EAT the Words of Jesus in a spiritual sense. That would be true because the KINGDOM is within: what I read from Donnie's reports is that they practice a POLITICAL kingdom which does not appear to haven anything CHRISTIAN left in it.

God in Christ is the Mediator prophesied because all men failed. He has been SLAIN and the blood is sprinkled. Baptism leapfrogs the Law of Moses and the literal Passover and returns to the faith of Abraham where HE obeyed God's laws and commands:

And to Jesus the mediator of the NEW covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. Heb 12:24

Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Heb.10:22

I would say that NO believer can participate in the Israelite Passover without falling from Grace. Any Gentile you seduce into keeping it is a STRANGER: he will have to be circumcised and the Blood of Christ will mean NOTHING.

If a believer keeps the BABYLONIAN PASSOVER SUBSTITUTE as do most Jews under the Babylon Talmud then they DO NOT follow Jesus Christ Who neither ate roasted lamb, flung blood, ate Bunny Bread or "got so drunk He couldn't tell Peter from Judas." I would give up being a hyphenated Jew and just be a Christian.

I know that among other things spewing out of ACU is that we should restore Old Testament practices but Jesus warned you against "doctors of the law because they TAKE AWAY the key to knowledge." The Passover was to redeem the first born child: please don't totally repudiate God's FIRST BORN or only beloved Son.

When Jesus returns again it will NOT be to make Sodom or a Jebusite High Place the capital of the world.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1 Cor 15:22

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christs at his coming. 1 Cor 15:23

Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule, and all authority and power. 1 Cor 15:24

For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 1 Cor 15:25

The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 1 Cor 15:26

That is why we SHOW FORTH or preach the DEATH of Jesus Christ to be AWAKE and alert when He puts an end to death.

End Time Babylonianism includes the MUSIC and MUSICIANS and assuredly practicing the Babylonian Passover would be the ultimate insult--about like musically marching our children into Canaan land which because of Mount Sinai turned from promise lands into the KILLING FIELDS.

Ken

Ken,

Do you really mean this?

"I would say that NO believer can participate in the Israelite Passover without falling from Grace. Any Gentile you seduce into keeping it is a STRANGER: he will have to be circumcised and the Blood of Christ will mean NOTHING."

What is wrong with going through the celebration commanded by God for all generations of Israel, even adopted Israel? I'm not binding it on anyone as law. I'm suggeting that there is great benefit to the Christian in experiencing the celebration which has shadows of the Messiah Jesus throughout. I would suggest the same to my Jewish brothers and sisters, consider the Messiah in the celebration, question your heart whether Jesus fulfills the role.

I'll continue on the flowing blood of Jesus with confidence that I am His forever...no way to fall from grace. Jn 17:2

blessings fisherman!

chuck
<><

Reference your little vulva-fishy idol, Chuck, WHERE did you pick that one up?

It seems to be all mouth, gils and tail but no guts!

:<

If you draw the FISH with smooth sides it is the CHRISTIAN symbol of the VULVA with the insides of the legs. I can show you PICTURES. A truly ugly lady all FISHED OUT was placed over the entraance (vulva) to especially Great Britian churches (circe, circus, church, holy whore). The symbolism is STILL highly sexual in modern churches. "Worshipers rubbed the vulva for good luck!" Guess most of them have been removed or plastered over.

Absolutely, historically CHURCH has been a highly sexual activity and the Wimber, Vinyard or New Wineskins points directly to what Donnie describes as seeking a climactic experience with the spirit person. Did I tell you about the side blown flute: well flutes were "male and female" and that is why the MUSIC word includes "play the flute, pollute and prostitute."

If YOU want to be the pervert just look up:

Sheila-Na-Gig

* " Ichthys was the offspring son of the ancient Sea goddess Atargatis, and was known in various mythic systems as Tirgata, Aphrodite [ZOE], Pelagia or Delphine."

* "The fish also a central element in other stories, including the Goddess of Ephesus (who has a fish amulet covering her genital region), as well as the tale of the fish that swallowed the penis of Osiris, and was also considered a symbol of the vulva of Isis."

* "...the fish also has been identified in certain cultures with reincarnation and the life force."

* "...before Christianity, the fish symbol was known as 'the Great Mother'...link[ed] to fertility, birth, feminine sexuality and the natural force of women..."

....."The little museum in the town of Lepenski Vir was a treasure. It housed sandstone carvings of the fish goddess worshipped by the Lepenski Vir Neolithic culture. Lydia Ruyle pointed out one fish goddess who was conspicuously exposing her vulva remarking that she resembled a Neolithic version of Sheila Na Gig.

http://www.awakenedwoman.com/reichard_sofia.htm

http://www.philomuse.com/kingfisher/lab/vp.htm

I hope all of the singy-clappys and their ENABLERS on top ARE OFFENDED.

The Pope's HAT is also a symbol of Dagon and his dress makes him #1 Phallic symbol.

Just thought you needed to know. As I read Hitler I find the Jews got suckered in by symbolism including music and spectacle.

Ken

Of interest to discerning Christians are the following references to two excellent essays by John Waddey that are pertinent to this thread:

“Jesus and Synagogue Worship” is found in the thread “Q&A: Who Is Dividing the Church, and Why Do Some Leave the Faith?” at the Madison Church forum.

“The Law of Silence” is found in the thread “Authority: ‘He Didn’t Say Not To’” at the Madison Church forum.

Here’s another biblical example for discerning Christians with open eyes, open ears, open minds, and open hearts:

By the law of exclusion, infant baptism is not scriptural. Scripture neither says, “Thou shalt baptize infants,” nor says, “Thou shalt not baptize infants.” Does this apparent “silence” grant those addicted to their “liberty in Christ” license to practice infant baptism? Christ has clearly stipulated that only those who believe and are baptized shall be saved (Mark 16:16). Only believers may be baptized. This qualification excludes all unbelievers. Infants are too young to understand and believe that Jesus is Lord. When the time comes that children know good from evil, right from wrong, and fully believe and make public confession that Jesus is Lord, then they may be baptized. Baptism without belief in Christ serves nothing. Therefore Christ linked baptism and belief together in the first half of Mark 16:16; in reference to unbelievers, He omitted “baptism” from the second half of Mark 16:16, because the subject is pointless with them. Therefore, infant baptism is excluded by the law of exclusion. Furthermore, it follows that unbelievers of all ages are automatically excluded as candidates for baptism.

By the same token, Scripture neither says, “Thou shalt observe the law of exclusion,” nor says, “Thou shalt not observe the law of exclusion.” But discerning Christians fully realize that the law of exclusion is scriptural nonetheless, by biblical example. Heads Up!

Mention the law of exclusion, and change agents and other such heretics immediately howl and jump to berate and deny it. Their reaction simulates that depicted in horror stories when the mythical vampire is confronted with the cross—fear and utter loathing. What is it about the law of exclusion that the heretical change agents find so detestable?

Simply put, the change agents have difficulty accepting the absolute authority of Christ. True, they give lip service and say that we must obey His commands, but when put to the test, they draw the line. Claiming “liberty in Christ,” they are determined to do whatever they please; that is, they put personal preferences ahead of obedience to Christ. The law of exclusion, when correctly applied, puts a check on such unrestricted “freedom.” In other words, the law of exclusion keeps us in harmony with Christ’s principles and prevents our running roughshod over His Word. This the change agents will not accept.

That the law of exclusion is scriptural is without question, for it has been proven true by biblical example. I submit that most change agents also subconsciously recognize this (perhaps some are truly incapable) but openly and deliberately deny it nonetheless, because the law of exclusion denies them unrestricted “liberty” to do as they please. Why else would anyone, let alone the heretical change agents, deny and refuse to abide by that which is definitively scriptural? Why again would anyone, let alone the heretical change agents, otherwise expend so much energy and demonstrate such rabid passion in bitterly denying the law of exclusion? “Thou doth protest too much, methinks.”

Attempting to argue and reason with hostile change agents on this or any other issue in the Change Movement is completely FUTILE, for they have determined to close their eyes, regardless of any amount of biblical evidence presented before them. And detractors are already prejudiced against this web site, so their primary goal is to debunk it, regardless of the biblical evidence presented to them. Again, personal preferences, not the Word of God, rule their lives.

But it’s not sufficient for change agents to say, “I just don’t agree with you” and drop the matter. No, to justify their unscriptural positions when Bible believers call them to task, change agents (at least the ones responding on this web site) feel compelled to use character assassinations and other diversionary “weapons” against their opponents. In fact, in 2004 I addressed this very issue in a thread called “The Weapons of the Change Agents,” which can be found at the Madison Church forum. These “weapons” are nothing more than weak psychological defense mechanisms to bolster their fractured egos. It’s all they have, for they cannot honestly “justify” their unscriptural actions and beliefs any other way. For example, while discussing the law of exclusion, one change agent demanded to know whether I had ever met anyone’s needs, whether I had ever performed any acts of charity. Such highly presumptive character assassinations are deliberately designed to make the change agent appear as an angel of light and the opponent as the spawn of Satan. Do such character assassinations and other “weapons” prove the opponent’s position wrong? Of course not. Change agents merely use them to evade the immediate issue, to escape “facing the music” when Bible believers “mark” them for spreading false doctrine (Romans 16:17). We’ve seen plenty of that on this site.

Bill,

I can see now that there is a definite "law of exclusion" based in scripture. The scales have fallen from my eyes.

"For example, while discussing the law of exclusion, one change agent demanded to know whether I had ever met anyone’s needs, whether I had ever performed any acts of charity. Such highly presumptive character assassinations are deliberately designed to make the change agent appear as an angel of light and the opponent as the spawn of Satan."

I am the chief of sinners and I'm sorry if I've caused you any duress. My intention was to focus on the commission to help the destitute and reach the lost. If I spend more time doing those things, I don't get into trouble misinterpreting the Word and worshiping sinfully. Could you help me in my learning of how to apply the "law of exclusion?"

Are there courses being taught at preaching schools like MSOP? Are there internet courses for those that can't take off from work?

I look forward to becoming more literate in being able to defend the "law of exclusion."

thanks
chuck
(got rid of the fish symbol also)

This needs more attention but right now my body is collapsing around me and when it quits it quits.

For now, I think it is easy to miss the point of commands, examples and inferences well taught in the Bible as well as a fairly-well agreed on principle of all of the historical writers I have found.

The point is NOT that are excluded from doing your own ministry: in fact the purpose of the church is to PREPARE you for that. In all of the writings of the Restoration writers and John Locke before them as well as Calvin etal. The point is that:

No one has a right to introduce POSITIVE ACTS upon the collective body UNLESS those acts are necessary for carrying out the stated purpose for the assembly.

The anathema pronounced on sowing discord would absolutely EXCLUDE ritual practices which would offend people. Everyone has 168 hours a week but the assembly of speaking WITH ONE MOUTH and ONE MIND "that which is written" has the purpose of BONDING in the sense of UNISON speaking as God's oracle.

If little people need to PERFORM in speaking, music or drama THEY are saying that their part is so necessary that it is worth the risk of offending everyone else. All of these performances are SECOND LEVEL or even THIRD LEVEL truth and are almost certain to teach an untruth. The Easter DRAMA is a Babylonian ritual: long after the time of Christ they planted trees to Adonis at the supposed grave of Jesus. A noted drama expert says: "Drama works because we know that it ISN'T true."

So, what about leaving everyone alone for one out 168 hours a week and do not INVENT rituals because you CANNOT do so without knowing that you are sowing discord among PART or even MOST of the "family." I believe that these "works of human hands, music and tithing" are MARKS of a failed institution and not a mark of confidence.

Ken

Ken,

I think I better understand your point now. The hour we spend together in the church house should be in harmony.

"So, what about leaving everyone alone for one out 168 hours a week and do not INVENT rituals because you CANNOT do so without knowing that you are sowing discord among PART or even MOST of the "family." I believe that these "works of human hands, music and tithing" are MARKS of a failed institution and not a mark of confidence."

I think I'll visit Calvary Chapel more on Sunday mornings. They read right from the Word verse by verse and work their way through the Bible. Can it be any better than that?

Could any rightfully object to that kind of worship? I'll overlook the 15 minutes of congregational singing with 3 or 4 standing on the stage with guitar, drums etc, for the hour and a quarter of straight from the KJV teaching.

blessings
chuck

I totally agree! Remember that Paul told the Corinthians (NIV) that "your assemblies do more harm than good." The LIV does not upset the KJV and reads:

1 Cor 11:17LIV Next on my list of items to write you about is something else I cannot agree with. For it sounds as if more harm than good is done when you meet together for your communion services.

Paul said "don't forsake ASSEMBLYING YOURSELVES together" and I deny that this means BE CALLED at all hours of the day and night.

Come together or assemble is a "synagogue" word:

Sunerchomai (g4905) soon-er'-khom-ahee; from 4862 and 2064; to convene, depart in company with, associate with, or (spec.) cohabit (conjugally): - accompany, assemble (with), come (together), come (company, go) with, resort.

A word from the same root speaks of eating as in EATING:

1Co.5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such a one no not to eat.

I have lots of research notes and especially some of the Rabbi (rabbin?) I have researched: their view is that "worship" means--if Paul had not told us--to give heed to reading the Word. If I can get body and spirit together I want to spend more time trying to explain all of this to me. I think we came closer to that in the old days before we became CRUTCHED by preachers.

Most of the words of gathering and assemblying speak of the concept of the SYNAGOGUE which, like the ekklesia, would have been tied to an anchor and pushed overboard if the officials found them singing, clapping and preaching sermons NOT RELATED to the issue at hand which had to be HEARD, discussed and then some conclusion reached.

I think any pre-digested "class material" will be found to be the "dry onion skin" because I have come to believe that you cannot see Godliness as a means of financial gain (profession) without having God poke out your eyes and plug up your ears.

Another of our FALSE CHURCHES has begun the TITHIN IS A COMMAND. That always says to me that their BIBLICAL views based on the fact that JESUS PAID IT ALL have been STRIPPED AWAY and they are collapsing around themselves even if they are collecting all of the escapees from Hohenwald. Whatever we can stack up in favor of DOING CHURCH as a secular and increasingly pagan ORGANIZATION, is trumped by Jesus telling the ones and twos to "come learn of Me" and Paul's insistance that if we want to meet Jesus we will have to go OUTSIDE THE CAMP where REFUSE is cast to escape the Captains of Traffick and their PONZI schemes.

Your choices are easier: I had to choose between the FLEECING PEN and some institution.

Ken

Certain biblical passages may initially prove troublesome and cause some to misapply the law of exclusion. One such passage is James 5:14, which reads in the KJV, “Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:” Reading only the words without having full understanding, we may infer that, since only prayer and anointing with oil are mentioned as cures for the sick, then all medical treatment and those who administer it (physicians) are excluded. Is James 5:14 really telling us not to seek medical attention when we are sick? Does this passage really exclude all medical treatment?

With no understanding of the Greek, we would understandably arrive at this conclusion, but we would form the wrong conclusion. The word “anointing” translated in this passage derives from the Greek “aleipho,” which was commonly used in Greek literature to describe a medicinal anointing. A most common medicinal agent at the time was olive oil, which was smeared over the entire body if needed, or applied locally to affected regions as indicated. It could also be taken internally. Had this passage intended a ceremonial anointing instead, then the Greek word “chrio” would have been more appropriate. Instead of excluding medical treatment, James condones the use of prayer AND medicine. Since physicians as such at the time would likely not have contributed any better treatment, and since olive oil was a medicinal, James cut to the chase and simply had the church elders bring the oil and apply it while praying over the sick. The law of exclusion does not even come into question here, because medical treatment as such is not excluded.

When Jesus commanded His disciples to go out and preach with power to heal the sick, He authorized the “aleipho” medicinal anointing of oil in Mark 6:13.

After reading James 5:14, two broad groups of people will claim that the law of exclusion is a fallacy in this case, because the passage seemingly authorizes only prayer and anointing with oil but allegedly excludes all medical treatment, end of story, period:

The first group speaks from their ignorance not only of Greek word derivations but also of the primitive medical treatment available in that part of the world in the first century. We should gladly attempt to teach such a group, so that they gain a true understanding of Scripture and not draw the wrong conclusions. Therefore, to understand the New Testament better, I recommend that they add at least a reliable Greek-English interlinear New Testament based on the Received Text (Textus Receptus) and a Greek lexicon to their library. If these are not affordable, then before jumping to rash conclusions, by all means seek wisdom from those who are more knowledgeable and experienced in the Scriptures, as the Ethiopian eunuch did with Philip, when the former had difficulty understanding the Scriptures (Acts 8:26-40). “The Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible” also gives a thorough discussion about the medicinal uses of oil.

The second group, regardless of their knowledge, has a willful desire to be argumentative, confrontational, contentious, and divisive; they may come disguised as innocent sheep but nevertheless show themselves to be the “ravening wolves” as described in Matt. 7:15. By their fruits we indeed know them (Matt. 7:20). They persistently deny all evidence put before them, biblical or historical, especially if this evidence upholds a biblical principle that otherwise would interfere with or restrict their personal preferences and “liberty.” This group we must ignore, for the spirit of Christ is not in them, and as a testimony against them, we must “shake off the dust” under our feet, as Christ commanded His disciples to do (Mark 6:11 KJV).

Always remember that correctly applying the law of exclusion prevents our personal preferences and prejudices from altering the Word of God.