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The institutional church

March 5 2005 at 10:56 PM
 
from IP address 152.163.100.73

Institutions are important in our lives. They allow various types of groups, including governments and businesses to prevent chaos by establishing a certain amount of order and unified effort among people who may or may not care for each other. I believe this is one of the reasons God establishes the institution of human government. He knew not all people would be transformed into vessels of His selfless love, thus human government is needed to prevent chaos and to "bring punishment on the wrongdoer" Romans 13:4. Thus, institutions have their rightful place, BUT NOT IN THE CHURCH!

Christ's body is not an institution. His body is a living, breathing organism. I read posts on this message board and I cannot help but believe that 95% of the problems discussed here are created by the institutional (business like, programmatic focused) approach to community life so many churches take. Let the community of Christ be connected together by the Head (Jesus) working through the Spirit in supernatural ways that on the surface may appear very natural. Normal life stuff, ie- meals, getting together, letting what Jesus is doing in me connect to what Jesus is doing in you. No professional staff or church "serve us" needed. Jesus will build His church, really, He said He would, Matthew 16. He will connect and join you to a spiritual family, He doesn't need a bunch of human organized church activities to connect the body. These usually only impede the Life that is true living. If humans build something and call it church, then they must maintain it with great effort and argue about building methods on websites like this one. Brother and Sisters in Christ, leave the institution and experience the supernatural dwelling not built with human hands that the Master Builder has made for you.

 
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AuthorReply
Walter Kinman

68.91.18.134

Right on

March 13 2005, 11:03 AM 

Paul, your right on but you may not get much response on this website. It seems to me, judging by the issues discussed here, your ideas are too far out of the box that many here want to place "church" in. Have you ever read "The Harlot Church System" by Charles Newbold or "Feed My Sheep" by George Warnock? Good reading on the subject. If interested, go to www.meatindueseason.org and you can read online or order the books. It would be interesting to ask people on this website who or what is the harlot of Revelation 17. My opinion is this. She sits on 7 hills (Rome) and feeds on the blood of the saints. It is likeley a prophetic reference to the future organizing and external control (a substite for the Kingdom of God within) of believers forming the first Christian religious institution, the Roman Catholic Church. This "woman" is refered to as the "Mother of prostitutes" and true to the prophecy, these daughters (hundreds of denominational, institutional functioning churches) may disagree with a few doctrines of the "Mother" but carry on their business with the same external control (at the expense of the Kingdom of God reigning from within) learned from mom. Shuffle a few doctrines and traditions around and basically you get the same package deal in every "Christian church". For that matter, I live in Lubbock, TX and was listening to PBS the other day to an ad for the Unitarian Universalist Church (I think that is their name) who I have been told do not even believe in a creator but only the creation or universe. Guess what, they have a Sunday morning assembly, with children's classes and even a Wednesday night meeting at 7:00! Incredible. This stuff can be done by anyone! I guess one could argue that they are just copying. My point is, the activities so many focus on as the essence of church are just that, activities. They did not descend from Mt. Sinai or come from the new Testament and are completly optional. My opinion is they are best avoided. The church that Christ builds and is building is all about the reign from within and "does not come with your observation" eventhough 100 fold fruit that is observable will be manifest in due season. Well, keep it up Paul, stay away from the mother and those daughters. Walt

 
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63.84.81.38

Where's the Beef?

March 13 2005, 7:27 PM 

You have to be careful when you speak of the INSTITUTIOAL CHURCH.

Within churches of Christ the "institutional" people are NOT BOUND not to help the poor unless the work is CONTROLLED by one church. It is a fact that such "institutions" have usually TURNED and rended the church.

The non-institutional church is often called the ANTIs because they are more AGAIN then for. In my early youth most churches were ANTI because they were literate enough not to see the church as an instrument of the SOCIAL GOSPEL which wrecked the Methodists.

However, you should grasp that there are INSTITUTIONAL churches and NON-institutional INSTITUTIONAL churches of Christ. The Non-institutional are probably more ORGANIZED in certifying preachers.

As far as Warnock etal are concerned you should understand that you will find some good and some evil. They have the TRADITIONAL view of baptism which surfaced in the yer 1525 and is an ancient PAGAN baptism where you are WASHED because you are ALREADY clean, or you get into the ARK because you have alreaady survived the killing flood, or are baptized BECAUSE God has saved you on the Egyptian side of the Sea.

They, like Baptists, leave water baptism on the other side of the Cross where John's baptism was for the JEWS ONLY. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is something Christ gives you before you are A REAL believer. The baptism of fire is also taught. Speaking in Tongues is also a fallacy. The result of their views of baptism is that there are TWO Christian dispensations and TWO gospels.

Many of the TRAFFICKING kind have been kicked out of ORGANIZED churches and therefore have a BURR. People should be warned ORGANIZED people are often th ones calling you out of someone else's ORGANIZATION.

I agree, however, that the kingdom is within and if you can SEE IT or have to PAY for it then it is best to get out.

Ken

 
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216.215.158.34

Institutional church? It's worse than that.

March 16 2005, 9:45 AM 

Dear Brothers:
The conduction of the modern church does not surprise me any more after studying “End Time” prophecies. We are told several times that in the “Last days” the church will become apostate. Yes, even the anti’s display their Pagan catholic roots: At home, not in the church building: but that is changing too.

II Thess. 2:3 Paul tells us that there will be a great falling away.
I Tim. 4:1 Paul says some will depart from the faith.
II Tim. 3:1 Paul says we will have a form of godliness, but denying the power.
II Tim. 4:3 Paul says we will have itching ears and turn away from the Truth.

Matt 24:5 Jesus says many will be deceived. 8 is the beginning of sorrows. 9 we are delivered up to be killed. 10 we will even betray one another. 11 again many deceived. 12 love waxes cold.
Mark 13: 9 Jesus says they shall deliver you up. 11 You shall be delivered up. 12 brother shall betray brother even unto death. 13 we will be hated of all for His name sake.
Luke 21: 16-20 Same as above.
John 16:2 This is not an End Timer, it’s an all timer: Religious people, thinking they are doing God’s service, have been killing Jesus’ people for a long time.

II Peter 3:3 Peter even tells us that in the last days scoffers will come. Most people think that these scoffers are people outside of the church, but look around, they are in the church also.

Jude 18 calls them “mockers”.

Yes things have gotten bad, but you ain’t seen nothing yet, but this generation will. I know: Here goes old Doom and gloom again. I’m not doom and gloom, I just trying to get people to remember Rev. 3:18-22, wake up, repent, so you can overcome.

To God be the Glory.
Joe McKnight

 
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meathead

205.188.117.13

Making Laws that God Does Not Provide

April 12 2005, 10:51 PM 

The non-institutional church makes laws where God did not.

 
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Paul

68.91.18.134

Re: Making Laws that God Does Not Provide

April 14 2005, 3:41 PM 

Hey Meathead, what do you mean?

 
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meathead

205.188.117.13

Response

April 16 2005, 3:47 PM 

You can't eat in a church building. Yet, God gave us a general command to meet. He left where we meet and the operation of those places up to the elders of individual congregations. We know that the early had fellowship with one another. Jude speaks of "love feasts."

You can't support orphan homes. Yet, we are commanded to take care of widows and orphans. I wonder how many non institutional churches are actively and frequently taking care of orphans or widows.

You can't have Church of Christ schools or camps. The Bible doesn't say we can have those.

Just a few examples..... Correct me if I'm wrong.

 
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Paul

68.91.18.134

Re: Response

May 2 2005, 5:15 PM 

Meathead, I see what you are talking about. Don't worry, the "anti's" are just as institutional as the mainstream C of C as I defined "institutional". Their institution just has different by laws. Paul

 
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63.84.81.40

Making Laws

April 15 2005, 10:51 PM 

Let me say it again:

The NON-institutional church does not support organizations larger than a congregation. Programs must be under that eldership. I believe that they will support para-church activities under ONE eldership but do not support "secular" organizations flying the flag of the church. So far, their batting average must be 100% correct in that the institutions takes your money and divert it to false teaching.

Most of us were NON-institutional before people began organizing separate institutions. If you wanted to personally support an orphan home there would be no problem.

The INSTITUTIONAL churches have no trouble taking money out of the treasury and giving it to a non-church institution. They might, for instance, take $30,000.oo of your money and let people hand it out helter skelter to anyone who LOOKED needy. Or they might take YOUR money and lump it with money from TBN and build a building as "A venue for Rock and Roll."

I don't believe that Joe is PICKING between the two WINGS. I think that he is saying that an INSTITUTION is one organized under elders and preachers who take your money, build buildings to be "evangelistic" and engage in endless "programs." Once it ceases to be an organic fellowship of disciples and becomes an ORGANIZATION-- often with an Executive Minister and a Missionary in Residence-- it ceases to be A church of Christ.

That would group MOST congregations either NON- institutional institutional or institutional institutional as more secular INSTITUTIONS. I agree with that. If the REMNANT theory has any meaning almost ALL will be engaged in INSTITUTIONALISM and not CHRISTIANITY at the end. The Holy Babylon Whore is spring loaded toward Musical Performance and TRAFFICKING.

Small fellowships of disciples who look out for one another and educate one another are called CHURCHES. Joe would agree with the local Rabbi and the Bible and me in saying that WORSHIP is not what most Christians do. That is why Joe is correct that Jesus will blow His trumpet "voice"--or may have already done so--while WE are engaged in a trumpet quartet-with or without instruments.

Is that clear as mud? Ken

 
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Saved by Grace

68.159.154.130

Why do many Church of Christ members marry in Baptist Churches?

July 3 2005, 2:39 PM 

I have always been puzzled by this. Is it ok to have music during a Wedding service? Could musical instruments be stored in a Church of Christ for wedding use only? Is it ok to enjoy musical instruments in a Baptist Church? If someone could explain it to me please. God Bless!

 
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Dr. Bill Crump

66.217.126.122

Marrying in Baptist Churches

July 3 2005, 5:11 PM 

"Saved" says that "many" Church of Christ members marry in Baptist churches. How many allegedly do this? Please give some figures and the sources for those figures. What about marriages in denominations other than the Baptist Church?

As a former organist, I played for a few weddings of people who not only were members of the Church of Christ, but who were also married in the Church of Christ. The respective churches, one of which was the Madison Church of Christ itself, allowed an organ to be brought in for the ceremony and then removed. In Madison's case, on two occasions the weddings were on a Saturday afternoon in the old Bixler Chapel. However, because the moving company that brought the organ could not pick it up until Monday, the organ was stashed away in a Chapel closet out of sight and out of mind for any classes or worship services on Sunday. All expenses for getting the organ in and out of the church were the responsibility of the bridal couple.

Some Churches of Christ probably would see the purchase of an on-site instrument that would be used strictly for weddings (and hidden away otherwise) as cost prohibitive. In addition, it might be a temptation eventually to drag it out and use it in the corporate worship services.

 
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What Happened At the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

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5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
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Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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