Just wanted to hear some thoughts on Christians and use of their money. Where do we draw the line? Is it ethical for a Christian to declare bankruptcy? Should Christians get involved with debt problems?

There are a lot of good verses out there on money. Please share.

A good place to start this discussion is the passage that says "The love of money is the root of all evil...."

I believe it is a sin for Christians to have debt, but no plan to repay.

As far as bankruptcy, there is evidence in the old and new testament of loan forgiveness or reduction.

As for giving, let's remember that God loves a cheerful giver.

Here's a true story for consideration. Recently a particular denomination held its national convention in a certain city. One pastor who lived in that same city decided to attend the convention. But instead of commuting to the convention from his home, he rented a suite of rooms at an expensive hotel nearby and invited two other members of his local church staff to join him. The convention lasted several days, after which the pastor submitted his and his companions' hotel and food bills to the church for reimbursement.

Questions:

Should the church pay for such local expenses?

If the pastor and staff members had gone out of town to attend the convention, should the church pay the expenses?

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Sister: "You get paid for preaching?"
creatur: Yup!
Sister: "You go away to hold lots of meetings?"
creatur: Yup!
Sister: "You get PAID for the meetings?"
creatur: Yup!
Sister: "And you keep the money?"
creatur: Yup!
Sister: "And you PAY someone to preach while you are gone?"
creatur: "Yup!

As usual, I have no ide what the above posting by brother Sublett means, but I will tell you what I think about Christians and debt.

Debt is wrong for Christians. Meathead makes a great point in differentiating between debt, and debt with no plan to re-pay. I think they are different. Bankruptcy is not for God's people. If a Christian finds himself backed in a corner with no way to re-pay, I think it is the local church's responsibility to help pay his debt, while holding him accountable to the debt to the church.

My opinion. I'm curious what others think.

As far as the case study of the pastor getting a local hotel and the local church reimbursing the expense, if you trust him enough to be your pastor, you should trust him enough to know what things will ultimately build up the church. If not, time to look elsewhere.

Donnie, did you notice that Dr. Crump also used the word 'Pastor'?

It's good to see you can focus on one word, and miss the message of an entire post, picking it apart, throwing out the message, in order to find something to criticize. Why not? It's the Church of Christ way.

I sincerely believe you to be intelligent enough to insert whatever word you use (preacher, evangelist...) and continue on with civil discussion.

Thanks for making this site what it is Donnie.

I am so glad we are on the subject of $$$...Oh wait! Donnie jumped in and changed the subject. Can you hear the sirens coming around the corner; IT'S THE WORD POLICE in the squad car!!! Donnie are you afraid someone might go to hell over this word or the use of this word? After doing a Dictionary search I can see the FEAR in using this word/term to describe their local minister/preacher/clergy. If I had not grown up with this nonsense then I would just be laughing hysterically, but since I did it does not shock me anymore.

Merriam Webster

Etymology: Middle English pastour, from Middle French, from Latin pastor herdsman, from pascere to feed -- more at FOOD
: a spiritual overseer; especially : a clergyman serving a local church or parish
- pas•tor•ship /-"ship/ noun

dictionary.com

A Christian minister or priest having spiritual charge over a congregation or other group.
A layperson having spiritual charge over a person or group.
A shepherd.

As Amazed already noted..."Thanks for making this site what it is Donnie."

Please post any other non subject material over in another thread like "Random Stuff" or "My Two Cents Worth"

Now back to the thread of $$$

I have not left any church group I mean as you call it "THE CHURCH." I just grew up and let go of the childish arguments and came to have a relationship with Christ rather than a checklist of do's and don’ts. The people you are so concerned about in the c of C are moving beyond the FEAR religion and gaining a relationship and Getting to Know God rather than know about Him. That's OK you are trying your best to get to Heaven and so are we! Praise God!

By the way how old are you? These are the same FEARS I went through when I was in my adolescent years. I then went to college (a c of C College) and studied under Professors with Real Doctorate Degrees who graduated from some of the finest Theological Schools in the World such as Yale, Oxford, Baylor, and so on. I learned how to do exegetical studying as well as study the history and culture and began to understand what Paul and other OT/NT writer’s meant/did not mean or say rather then regurgitate and assume old arguments that have holes in it. I have often said that the Best and Worst thing that happened to me was majoring in Bible

1.It helped me grow out of the FEAR Religion and start growing spiritually
rather than being trapped by tradition and Hermeneutic.
2.The bad part is that I could have stayed in my comfort zone and continued
to pick on people with do’s and don’ts.

The scary thing is that I would be arguing the same things your website stands for if it had not been an education. That’s why I am not blown away at your comments. You are just trying your best.

Oh yeah $$$...It should be used to help the sick the poor the widows, and getting into pointless debt and having no intention of paying it back is irresponsible.

I am done with this conversation.

On other threads I have asked two questions that still haven't been answered. The failure to provide an answer to the first one is a big reason why I am no longer C of C. The second, I am just curious about.

#1. IF the speak/speak, silent/silent hermeneutic is what you believe in, and I do think there is some validity to it, WHY does the C of C apply it only to music? I see a lot of things in a Church of Christ that aren't mentioned in the Bible, and I don't see a lot of things that are. I have asked many C of C ministers, memebers, and "scholars" this question. It's not that I have received a bad answer or one that I don't believe, or one that didn't make sense; it's that I have never received an answer at all. No one can seem to explain what I percieve as a gaping hole in C of C doctrine. Any thoughts?

#2. The other is, why is a person considered evil or heretic if they go to a church building on Sunday morning that does not have the words: CHURCH OF CHRIST on the outside, but also considered by some (many on this site) to be in error if they do not quote scripture out of a book called the KING JAMES Bible. Did I miss the diefication of an English King somewhere in scripture?

KJV is a tremendous translation but we all know that it contains a number of mistranslations such as easter in the book of acts and Jesus instead of Joshua in the book of Hebrews when speaking about the rest.

God bless those who God knows are His

First, you should understand that the church is a SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE. T. Campbell called it A SCHOOL OF CHRIST. He defined Worship as commanded for "the church in the wilderness" or synagogue which was to READ and MUSE the Word of God. Music was OUTLAWED. That is SOMETHING Like "speak one to another "and make melody in the HEART."

To that no one can ADD anything which is NOT REQUIRED for a School of the Bible because any thing added is a SECT and sows discord. This has always been the view of all church scholars and founders of denominations.

That meant to Campbells that you cannot INFER something to be acceptable just because the Bible is silent. You can determine what is DIRECTLY COMMANDED from Paul's passages which are not MUSICAL: Romans 15, Ephesians 5, Colossians 3 and other passages which define the TEACHING function of the assembly. That meant the same thing to John Calvin and most of the reformers whom I have posted.

You CANNOT INFER a musical or theatrical [spectacle] performance instead of worship which to Paul is defined as GIVING HEED to the Word "as it has been taught" spoken with ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH using "that which is written or Scripture" as the only way to keep the peace and GLORIFY GOD who wrote the songs and sermons ALREADY as the SPIRIT OF CHRIST (1 Pet 1:11)

Furthermore, readers of the Bible have ALWAYS known and written hordes of contemporaneous commentaries on the Bible agree, that MUSIC was "infused" by Satan to lead people AWAY from the Living and Written Word of God. Music is ALWAYS implicated in all of the PATTERNISMS of the FALL including the SERPENT in the garden whom linguists and PREACHERS always knew to mean a MUSICAL ENCHANTER and that he WHOLLY SEDUCED Eve in a sexual sense as verified by Paul. That is why CAIN (from a musical note) was OF that Wicked One.

Throughout the Bible and in the ENDING in Revelation 18 the "holy harlot of Babylon" performs music or SORCERY and will be destroyed. The Bible is NOT silent but SHOUTS from beginning to the end about music. The BONEY fingers of the prophets and Paul point to the classical literature (including John) to IDENTIFY false religionism. Sorry that you have been cheated by cheaters who don't recognize the Old Testament and contemporaneous literature as having any value if INVENTED before PREACHERS SCHOOL and ME.

If I wanted to TAKE AWAY THE KEY TO KNOWLEDGE I would pretend that Jesus DID NOT fire the DOCTORS OF THE LAW. I would INVADE the pulpits and colleges and repeat the MANTRA where all REPEAT, REPEAT, REPEAT erotic praise songs which is to CHARM or ENCHANT or perform SORCERY to make it IMPOSSIBLE for people to get PAST THEM and discover the FREE WATER OF THE WORD.

The BIBLE and ALL RECORDED literature is NOT silent: if anyone tells you that the Bible is SILENT about something you can see it as a MARK. They are BLINDED guides to blind others because God has POKED OUT their eyes the MOMENT they turn to SERMONIZING and VERSIFYING as the FIRST HERESY largely pervading the church. Don't pay them with the UNLAWFUL Law of giving and they will quit manufacturing BUGGY WHIPS and go away.

Ken, I ask a legitimate question, and you provide this as an answer: (all direct quotes)

"T. Campbell called it..."
"This has always been the view of all church scholars and founders of denominations...."
"That meant the same thing to John Calvin..."
"Readers of the Bible have always known and written..."
"The BONEY fingers of the prophets and Paul point to the classical literature..."

Got anything that's actually found in the Bible? Just wondering. You finished strong though, with this sentence:

"I would INVADE the pulpits and colleges and repeat the MANTRA where all REPEAT, REPEAT, REPEAT erotic praise songs which is to CHARM or ENCHANT or perform SORCERY to make it IMPOSSIBLE for people to get PAST THEM and discover the FREE WATER OF THE WORD."

That's one sentence. Wow. Not sure what it means, but you sure did cram a lot into it. If anyone knows the English translation of what that means, plese post it here.

Please refer to my posting on Feb. 9th. My 2 questions still stand.

I do give you huge credit for trying Mr. Sublett. It's more than I can get from anyone else. Although, "Searched" sort of gave an answer to my 2nd question. One that only solidified my belief. It would be nice if someone could answer them using the Bible. The longer I get no answer, the more solid my belief becomes.

We are sliding off the page, Amazed, so I am moving back.

People who pollute the word meaning "hawk or sell at retail" which also means adultery always have a motive. The Pharisees invented their own rituals SPECIFICIALLY to keep the people from obeying the WORD of God. That has always been the Lucifer Principle.

Like the silversmiths and the craftsmen lumped with singers, musicians, grinders (prostitutes) as "theater builders and stage managers," people will HURT you real bad and hold massive "workshops of evil" to tell people that even if God had ever issued any direct commands they have been "filtered away by philosophy." The latest is that EVOLUTION has so changed our EYES that they cannot read a text Jesus might have read and UNDERSTAND it without a professional theologian to do what the SPIRIT utterly failed to do. Paul in 2 Corinthians speaking of the MANY who trafficked on the word made my paraphrased statement that FOOLS LOVE TO BE FOOLED. I do! I love to watch that guy make the Great Wall of China evaporate before my eyes.

Balaam demonstrated a high ethical standard when he said:

'Even if Balak gave me his palace filled with silver and gold,.

I could not do anything of my own accord, good or bad,
to go beyond the command of the LORD--
and I must say only what the LORD says'? Num 24:13

Talent-based performance by either male or female presumes some kind of authority which neither has. This authority was that by performance power or even madness they believed that they could ignore "doctrine" and originate new doctrine:

Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 1 Corinthians 14:36

If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am WRITING to you is the Lord's command. 1 Corinthians 14:37

If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored. 1 Corinthians 14:38

Those who KNOW that fools can be fooled and PAY UP with their children's education fund now claim VOCALLY at workshops of evil that the EPISTLES are out and we are left with only SEVEN FACTS ABOUT JESUS. However, for a price, they actually claim that "we are partnering with God to work out our salvation" which they interpret for the FOOLS that we are USING God's assistance through the hallucinated "spirit person" to get a NEW SET of Scriptures.

One of the meanings of SON in relationship to a FATHER when we know that these are not names of separated Beings, is defined by Jesus:

Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. Jn. 8:28

I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. Jn. 8:38

For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. Jn.12:49

Jn.12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

That is why the church in the wilderness was forbidden to call assembly with the ALARM or TRIUMPH over which was "instruments and making a joyful noise before the Lord." This was the Warrior's PANIC MUSIC and that is why ALL singing and instruments were RESTRICTED to the Levitical Warriors under the command of the KING and the COMMANDERS of the Army. Music ALWAYS speaks of warfare or perverted religion and religionists.

To prove that they are LIARS for a profit I have collected the UNIVERSAL understanding of Commands, Examples and necessary inferences which NO ONE but the modern PhDuhs with a degree in "ministry" or "communicaitons" or "philosophy" who POLLUTE the Word in order to RETAIL IT ALL AROUND could be FORCED to lie through their teeth about.

http://www.piney.com/ComExamInfer.html

If I wanted to fool you and tell you that the SPIRIT PERSON told me to take your TV set you would probably shoot me for being a criminal fool and terminally lost beyond redemption (the music parable)

However, if a preacher who even among the ignorant baptists on the wild frontier which gave rise to the Stoneites as "shouting Methodist" could induce you into what the Egyptians, Greeks and the VINEYARD LADY called a "visual or aural orgasm" you would COME BACK like a nitwit to a slot machine over and over and over. That is why fools have always been easy to fools and the FOOLERS or TRAFFICKERS know how to give you a verbal and motional VIBRATION: sure, music actually vibrates your private parts. If OSHA wasn't rightefully affraid of RELIGIONISM they would lock the musicians UP for causing brain damage. The Pornography Squad would lock you up and POST your picture in the newspaper and probably put a leg band on you.

THAT is the meaning of SATAN'S lying wonders that people can PRETEND to be ignorant of the Bible and CLAIM the SPIRIT as guiding them. As Apollyon in the book of Revelation, those above FOOL CLASS could hear him warning about SATAN returning to UNLEASE the LOCUSTS who were APOLLO'S muses sentenced into the NETHERWORLD for bad mouthing the MOTHER GODDESS. The Babylon Whore is defined in Revelation 18 and her singers, clappers, musicians, grinders (prostitutes) will be sent back into hell

Rev 18:22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;

18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

John wrote this as a MARK so that those who are NOT FOOLS can FLEE Babylon. That is why the UNMISTAKABLE understanding of the synagogue, ekklesia or school of the Bible means that you IMITATE CHRIST and if the FATHER has not spoke it then a SON will not anc cannot speak it. One of the things OUTLAWED for a true SABBATH was speaking your own words.

If that was not the fact then it would not STIR UP so much hostility among the silversmiths who actually seel THEMSELVES as the idols to whom you MUST give heed unless you are blind and deaf when they sermonize (early heresy) and versify (early heresy) and wave their little hands in the air chanting KEEP YOUR EYE ON JESUS (repeat that ten times and someody will PUBLISH it.)

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