You may be referencing an article that I wrote where I talked about appointing verses electing the elders.
If that is the case then I should have been a little clearer.
The word electing was used as in a "process". A process used by the church members that would allow God to help select the best elder, similar to when Matthias was chosen by lots in Acts 1:26.
This process being in contrast to elders appointing additional elders without a similar "process".
In the "election" or "process" of choosing Matthias, it seems that the whole church was involved in casting lots. (the 120)(men & women?) They needed Gods help in choosing bewtween two "men" of similar qualifications.
I'm not trying to be obtuse, but I still don't quite understand. By "electing" do you mean "selecting?" This isx important because at this has become an ussie at the church where I attend. ConcernedMembers is the first website where I've found people who defend the election process.
I now remember having seen this briefly, since your mention of it in The Viper’s Den.
Perhaps this is an issue that many of the readers find difficult to respond to. One may question—“church elections” of what? Please pardon my own lack of discernment. Is this in reference to the process involved in the selection [or election or appointment] of elders? Or, is this in reference to the doctrine of predestination that is being accepted by certain teachers and preachers in the church?
I can’t promise to respond or respond immediately, and I simply hope for your understanding. In fact, there are issues on the Madison forum that I haven’t had time yet to address. But I hope that however this question is qualified further, discussion of this thread will continue. BTW, the Madison forum may have a couple of threads that discuss the issue regarding the office of an elder … or the scenario in which current elders appoint new elders “of a feather.”
I am refering to the process whereby a congregation votes on issues and/or elders and deacons. I have read David Rhoades' answers, but they seem to blur the line between electing and selecting. I understand electing to mean to consciously choose a specific person or side. Selection can mean that or can have a broader meaning, which I believe we see in Acts 1. Casting lots was a way for the church to determine God's will between 2 qualified men. Casting ballots is another process altogether.
The person chosen to replace Judas was chosen by lot: by drawing straws. This does not mean that Jesus picked him but that there were MANY who qualified as having been taught and were EYE WITNESSES of Jesus after the resurrection. They would all be guided by the Words of Jesus and would need no special speaking or performing skills. Elders have no COMMAND AUTHORITY.
There is no institution as a STANDING ARMY because the ekklesia was REGULARLY CALLED to Hear, Dialog or debate and reach conclusions about an issue. It had NO AUTHORITY to introduce issues for DISCUSSION. That is why Paul puts OUR PRIVATE LIVES outside of the DISCUSSION or DISPUTATION within the SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE where ONLY "that which is written" is read, dialoged and taken home as a whole psalm MEMORIZED for private singing and meditation all week long.
The ekklesia had no BUDGET to fund an institution and the leaders were paid--like religious functionaries--when on duty for their time and expenses. The ekklesia or church "assembles themselves" (Heb 10) and when the assembly is over there is NO INSTITUTION to perpetuate. People, in Romans 15, speak "that which is written" using ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH as a school of the Bible. Elders, like Shepherds, then GO OUTSIDE the fold or city and help FEED literally and spiritually those whom they oversee. Paul both EXAMPLED and directly commanded "if they will not work then neither shall they eat."
In Acts they were picking an apostle and is is NOT a pattern for selecting an elder. At the same time, if the elders "teach that which has been taught" and is an honorable man there is no OFFICE to which he can be ELECTED. Paul had given Titus instructions and Titus POINTED OUT those men who, in the words of Lenski and the text were "already laboring to the point of exhaustion in preaching and teaching." A man does NOT ACQUIRE the aptness and HONESTY to deliver the once-delivered word as an honest HERALD who does not add to, subtract from or charge for a message which is PREPAID by the sender.
The replacement of Judas had the meaning of FULFILLED PROPHECY. The MESSAGES of the prophecies would EXCLUDE any elder who refused to feed the sheep and who entertained the goats. If your assembly is ANYTHING MORE than a school of the Bible and mutual aid then those who SEEK SYSTEMS OF ELECTION are the Judas Goats which lead the lambs to the slaughter and not to green pastures and STILL WATERS.
Therefore, I want to look at some of the prophecy of what WAS WRONG WITH JUDAS. His Judas Bag was for "carrying the mouthpieces of wind instruments." The SOP Jesus hand fed Judas has the same root meaning as PSALLO which is to "grind into bits." This was the SIGN which caused Satan to come into Judas. This would, as prophesied, PREVENT Judas from TRIUMPHING OVER Jesus which means to "blow the instruments and make a joyful noise before the Lord."
Acts 1:16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
Joel also spoke about people getting visions and dreaming dreams: this was a NEGATIVE sign to the Jews who had replaced the teaching of the Word of God with rituals. Peter is specifically pointing to Psalm 41 which clearly proves that the ATTACK against Jesus would be the Musical Warrior Levites. This was one of the documents preserved at the Dead Sea:
Psa 41:7 All that hate me whisper together against me: against me do they devise my hurt.
"Whisper" has the same meaning as the serpent in the garden of Eden as the NACHASH:
Nachash (h5172) naw-khash'; a prim. root; prop. to hiss, i. e. whisper a (magic) spell; gen. to prognosticate: - * certainly, divine, enchanter, (use) * enchantment, learn by experience, * indeed, diligently observe.
Lachash (h3907) law-khash'; a prim. root; to whisper; by impl. to mumble a spell (as a magician): - charmer, whisper (together).
Lachash (h3908) lakh'-ash; from 3907; prop. a whisper, i. e. by impl. (in a good sense) a private prayer, (in a bad one) an incantation; concr. an amulet: - charmed, earring, enchantment, orator, prayer.
Je.8:17 For, behold, I will send serpents, cockatrices, among you, which will not be charmed, and they shall bite you, saith the Lord.
In the Greek word definitions and uses in the literature words like SINGING and MUSIC is equated to MAGICA and ENCHANTMENT, sorcery or witchcraft. The ORATORS are identified as both performing sorcery because they MANIPULATE people's minds and because BOTH the slick-speak of orators and musicians is ALWAYS identified as both the MARK and CAUSE of effeminacy.
Psa 41:8 An evil disease, say they, cleaveth fast unto him: and now that he lieth he shall rise up no more.
Psa 41:9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.
Psa 41:11 By this I know that thou favourest me, because mine enemy doth not triumph over me.
Ruwa (h7321) roo-ah'; a prim. root; to mar (espec. by breaking); fig. to split the ears (with sound), i. e. shout (for alarm or joy): - blow an alarm, cry (alarm, aloud, out), destroy, make a joyful noise, smart, shout (for joy), sound an alarm, triumph.
This was OUTLAWED for the Qahal, synagogue or "church in the wilderness" and no Jew with an IQ as long as his shoe lace was ignorant of that even when the CLERGY introduced the organ into a liberal synagogue in Germany in the year 1815 with the usual DELIBERATES sowing of discord and law suits.
Ac.1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and, His bishoprick let another take.
This points to Psalm 69 where we see more of the details of the Judas prophecy as well as to Psalm 109 where the FEEDING word is used.
Psa 69:6 Let not them that wait on thee, O Lord God of hosts, be ashamed for my sake: let not those that seek thee be confounded for my sake, O God of Israel.
Kalam (h3637) kaw-lawm'; a prim. root; prop. to wound; but only fig., to taunt or insult: - be (make) ashamed, blush, be confounded, be put to confusion, hurt, reproach, (do, put to) shame.
Psa 69:7 Because for thy sake I have borne reproach; shame hath covered my face.
Cherphah (h2781) kher-paw'; from 2778; contumely, disgrace, the pudenda: - rebuke, reproach (-fully), shame.
Psa 69:8 I am become a stranger unto my brethren, and an alien unto my mothers children.
Psa 69:9 For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up; and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me.
Charaph (h2778) khaw-raf'; a prim. root; to pull off, i. e. (by impl.) to expose (as by stripping); spec. to betroth (as if a surrender); fig. to carp at, i. e. defame; denom. (from 2779) to spend the winter: - betroth, blaspheme, defy, jeopard, rail, reproach, upbraid.
Psa69:10 When I wept, and chastened my soul with fasting, that was to my reproach.
Psa 69:11 I made sackcloth also my garment; and I became a proverb to them.
Psa 69:12 They that sit in the gate speak against me; and I was the song of the drunkards.
Negiynah (h5058) neg-ee-naw'; or nˇgynath neg- ee- nath'; from 5059; prop. instrumental music; by impl. a stringed instrument; by extens. a poem set to music; spec. an epigram: - stringed instrument, musick, Neginoth [plur.], song
Lam.3:14 I was a derision to all my people; and their song all the day.
Nagan (h5059) naw-gan'; a prim. root; prop. to thrum, i. e. beat a tune with the fingers; espec. to play on a stringed instrument; hence (gen.) to make music: - player on instruments, sing to the stringed instruments, melody, ministrel, play (-er, -ing..
Naga (h5060) naw-gah'; a prim. root; prop. to touch, i. e. lay the hand upon (for any purpose; euphem., to lie with a woman); by impl. to reach (fig. to arrive, acquire); violently, to strike (punish, defeat, destroy, etc.): - beat, (* be able to) bring (down), cast, come (nigh), draw near (nigh), get up, happen, join, near, plague, reach (up), smite, strike, touch.
Is.25:5 Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low.
THE BRANCH IS:
Zamiyr (h2158) zaw-meer'; or zamir zaw-meer'; and (fem.) zˇmirah zem-ee-raw'; from 2167; a song to be accompanied with instrumental music: - psalm (-ist), singing, song
Is.24:16 From the uttermost part of the earth have we heard songs, even glory to the righteous. But I said, My leanness, my leanness, woe unto me the treacherous dealers have dealt treacherously; yea, the treacherous dealers have dealt very treacherously.
Psa 69:20 Reproach hath broken my heart; and I am full of heaviness: and I looked for some to take pity, but there was none; and for comforters, but I found none.
Psa 69:21 They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.
69:22 Let their table become a snare before them: and that which should have been for their welfare, let it become a trap.
Psa 69:23 Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not; and make their loins continually to shake.
Psa 69:24 Pour out thine indignation upon them, and let thy wrathful anger take hold of them.
Psa 69:25 Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents
In victory, Jesus would sing but NOT with the "song of the drunkard" using instruments. In the translation of the Dead Sea Scrolls.
I will groan with the zither of lamentation
in all grief-stricken mourning and bitter complaint
until iniquity and wickedness are consumed
and the disease-bringing scourge is no more.
Then will I play on the zither of deliverance
and harp of joy,
on the tabors of prayer and
the pipe of praise without end.
When Jesus SINGS with the congregation we have met to hear HIM delare the Word "as it has been written" and to REMEMBER His death through the Lord's Supper. Therefore, the prophecy is:
Heb.2:12 Saying, I will DECLARE thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
Apalgeo (g524) ap-alg-eh'-o; from 575 and algeo, (to smart); to grieve out, i.e. become apathetic: - be past feeling
Humneo (g5214) hoom-neh'-o; from 5215; to hymn, i.e. sing a religious ode; by impl. to celebrate (God) in song: - sing an hymn (praise unto).
If the elders have FACILITATED turning your assembly into a THEATER FOR HOLY ENTERTAINMENT; if they VIOLATE the direct command of Paul in Romans 15 NOT to PLEASURE one another where the word points directly to AROUSAL singing or performance singing, then the the JUDAS prophecy is to MARK your elders just as Jesus MARKED Judas with the ROOT word related to EXTERNAL MELODY which has received its SECOND INCARNATION as complex harmony singing Twila Paris.
The story of The Book of Enoch and many parallel accounts of the LAMECH family says clearly that THEY HAVE FALLEN AND THEY WILL NEVER GET BACK UP into the presence of the Living Word.
I could go on and on and I probably will: this is one of those PARABLE events used to hide the mysteries from the fools who love to be fooled. Give ME a random-selected fella off the streets who GRASPS the demand to "teach that which HAS BEEN taught" rather than a politician who is "more APT to chase a coon than APT to teach the Bible."
The "electing" vs "selecting" debate is often contentious and confusing. Our personal biases and experiences shape not only what we say but also what we hear the other person say as is evidenced by several of the responses shared above.
For what it’s worth, I’ve been unable to find any “process” outlined in scripture concerning the selection—election of elders/pastors/shepherds/bishops. Timothy and Titus were to appoint them in churches where they did not already exist (which calls into question the idea we simply “recognize” those who are already serving as such).
Some look to Acts 1 for guidance in choosing these individuals; others look to Acts 6. As pointed out by Ken, neither directly relates to elders (or, technically, deacons).
In the absence of any outline procedure (direct command/divine approved example/necessary inference) it would seem each body of believers has been given the freedom to determine how they will “elect” or “select” these men. Acts 1 certainly seems to place an emphasis on prayer and dependence on God (if not a direct operation, like casting lots, then certainly an attitude of the collective heart). Acts 7 may demonstrate how a body of believers, given guidelines for the election/selection, could work together to identify those to serve. Yes, there is the example of younger preachers—missionaries appointing elders (1 Timothy, Titus), but this seems to have applied very specifically to newer bodies of believers.
Thanks for your well thought-out reply. It looks as if this is one of those "Where the Bible is Silent" kind of areas. The more I research it, the less convinced I am that the Scriptures provide clear direction.
I do agree that the idea of "recognizing" elders carries with it a bias toward subjectivism, and it inherent dangers. There has to be some kind of agreement, whether through a congregational discussion and consensus, or voting or a legitimized appointing process.
RICKY I read on the concerned members website that that church elections are biblical according to Acts 1. How was this conclusion arrived at?
Sorry, Ricky, I assume a certain level of knowledge and forget that I need to go back to basics. Like the coach whose losers needed to go back to BASICS, the coach held up and said THIS IS A BASEBALL!
Now, IF you want to discuss ELDERS in the context of ELECTING then Acts 1 is the ONLY Place to go. If you already grasp WHERE Peter POINTS then let me try to explain to others that ELDERS are not apostles and they are not elected by a ballot but but by THEIR OWN HOLY SPIRIT and their APTNESS to teach.
Paul made it clear that this was to FULFILL A PROPHECY and thereby TEACH A LESSON. Many of the acted parables of Jesus were to repudiate JUDAISM which was at that time the same Babylonianism WORSHIP OF THE STARRY HOST Stephen spoke about.
If you want to know WHY Jesus used the "base" word for MELODY to cause Satan to enter into JUDAS and cause him to betray Jesus, you have to go to that OLDEN TESTAMENT and look at the PROPHECIES and TYPES to understand the ACTED and SPOKEN parables Jesus used to HIDE the truth from the huckester: preachers, performers and writers.
I threw in the JUDAS backgroung because it LOGICALLY FOLLOWS--except for PhDuhs who are elder-selected HUCKSTERS. Now, where did I get a START?
Acts 1:16 Men and brethren, this scripture must NEEDS have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning JUDAS, which was GUIDE to them that took Jesus.
Ac.1:20 For it is WRITTEN in the book of PSALMS, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and, His bishoprick let another take.
The same Peter WROTE his own letters so that we might have a MEMORY and as a MARK so that we can identify modern JUDAS types as the "sons of the Devil because they SPEAK on their own." If you look where Scripture points you will grasp the JUDAS TYPE as the same "abomination of desolation" practiced by many Jews at the time they tried to get Jesus to sing and dance the Dionysus shuffle while THEY piped.
Sorry, Ricky, but a Bishprick is not a PRICK who got buddy-bonded into the OFFICE.
Now, it logically follows for ME--and I am doing the writing--that SOME one might want to know WHAT MEANS BISHOPRICK without the elders or preacher SILENCING them. The bishop is:
Episkope (g1984) ep-is-kop-ay'; from 1980; INSPECTION (for RELIEF); by impl. superintendence; spec. the Chr. "episcopate": - the office of a "bishop", bishoprick, VISITATION.
The SHEEP don't visit the VISITOR. Is that easy or not? The shepherd VISITS the sheep OUT where they feed. Is it graspable that you dont FEED sheep in the sheepfold? The Latin observatio is used in First Maccabees:
11 - In those days lawless men came forth from Israel, and misled many, saying,
"Let us go and make a covenant with the Gentiles round about us, for since we separated from them many evils have come upon us."
12 - This proposal pleased them,
13 - and some of the people eagerly went to the king. He authorized them to observe the ordinances of the Gentiles.
14 - So they built a gymnasium in Jerusalem, according to Gentile custom,
Now, Judas would lose his HABITATION: that is not a mega-temple, Ricky. The habitation of a SHEPHERD is:
Epaulis (g1886) ep'-ow-lis; from 1909 and an equiv. of 833: - a hut over the head, i.e. a dwelling.
Liddell--Scott adds: epaul-is farm-building, country house, in military language, quarters, e. poieisthai encamp, unwalled village
I am going to quote again JUST HOW Judas would attack Jesus and WHY the word SOP and the JUDAS BAG points to the Zeus -- Dionysus worship which the PRIESTS using Judas were in danger of loosing. OF JUDAS, one of the prophecies was:
Psa 41:8 An evil disease, say they, cleaveth fast unto him: and now that he lieth he shall rise up no more.
Psa 41:9 Yea, mine own FAMILIAR FRIEND (Judas), in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.
Psa 41:11 By this I know that thou favourest me, because mine enemy doth not TRIUMPH over me.
Here is how Judas would attempt to TRIUMPH OVER JESUS and why Judas was the PAWN of the TEMPLE SYSTEM which STOLE from the SHEPHERDS:
Ruwa (h7321) roo-ah'; a prim. root; to mar (espec. by breaking); fig. to split the ears (with sound), i. e. shout (for alarm or joy): - blow an alarm, cry (alarm, aloud, out), destroy, make a joyful noise, smart, shout (for joy), sound an alarm, triumph.
This was OUTLAWED for the Qahal, synagogue or "church in the wilderness" and no Jew with an IQ as long as his shoe lace was ignorant of that even when the CLERGY introduced the organ into a liberal synagogue in Germany in the year 1815 with the usual DELIBERATES sowing of discord and law suits.
The arrow points to the JUDAS BAG which was an integral part of the FLUTE CASE.
Shepherds don't build "Venues for Rock and Roll" to minister to the YOUTH. Shepherds don't remove the NAME of the OWNER of the flock. Shepherds don't ENTERTAIN THE GOATS AND WOLVES with "the sounds of rushing waters."
Now, the Judas Principle is the Lucifer (zoe) principle of all who would BLEED OFF WORSHIP due only to God. When you see the elders LET IN THE WOLVES grasp that a wolf is a pederast
I agree that you assume a lot of knowledge. We all know that the Word of God is alive, my question is: Do the Scriptures ever scream when you twist and torture them?
I found the classification for your incessant dissertational droning, it is Minutia esoterica.
I have been reading quite a few of the post in a few of the forums as of late, but this is the first time I've posted a response to anything. I was just wanting to know why you (Ken) cited 1st Macabees in your response to Rick. I'm not expert or scholar but I'm pretty sure that the Macabees are in the Apocrapha (sorry if I butchered the spelling, it's not my strong suit) and the authorized KJV, NKJV, NIV, or really any other Bible version accepted by the Church of Christ/Christian Church.
First, because this is the only "history" for 400 years between the Old and New Testaments. It is pretty good history and fits the practices of the Jewish Monarchy.
Second, there are hundreds of writings: Babylonian tablets date a thousand to two thousand years before Moses. After Israel fell into idolatry at Mount Sinai, Moses wrote the history of the Israelites to help guard the people now sentenced to mix and max with Canaanite and Babylonian idolatry. His record warns about the evil religious practices revealed in these ancient records.
Third, the Apocryphal books were included in the KJV and there was a legal threat against anyone who removed them. If you have an older KJV (I have a large 1828 edition) you will find them all right there.
The NEV still has them and anyone who claimes to be Original 1611 KJV Only had better get a copy. History has seen them as not measuring up to the standards of inspiration and they do have some pretty strange stuff.
Nevertheless, they probably have more value than a modern sermon or book as far as telling us what the Jews believed. They may be wrong but the 4 books of Maccabees tells the universal story of how Zeus-Dionysus worship invaded the temple as the Abomination of Desolation. Paul in Hebrews records some people and the only record is in the Apocryphal documents.
In addition, there are many, many pseudo- or apocalyptic writings before and after the time of Christ which tells us a lot about the common beliefs of people.
The Book of Enoch was not part of the KJV but it is quoted about 128 times by Jesus, Peter and Jude. If you want to know for whom God will come with ten thousands of His saints or angels the book of Enoch is directly quoted by Jude and those in danger are the ones seduced away from the WORD of God by the use of exciting singing, musical instruments and the USE of women to seduce with dress, dance and music.
Hope this helps: After a night's nap I will give you some links. I have copied dozens of these documents and linked them to parallel Bible statements.
This web site is not part of or approved by any Church!
...........................THE BOOK
What Happened At the Madison Church of Christ?
There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.
This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison
Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource
references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least
you will recognize the signs early on.
Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't
know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.
Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was
one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.
It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of
it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word
of Jesus Christ.
At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority
of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly
realm.
They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and
to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.
The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan.
Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books,
seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change
so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....
At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to
be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched
through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the
"Community Church Movement"
Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready,
or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the
plans very nature, it had to be secret.
The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was
never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last
15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.
The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the
elders went along unwittingly.
This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell
something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill
in some of the timeline.
To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the
background materials in the first of the book.
This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be
printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our
web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison
Here is the list of players;
5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten
commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
